Rival's Religious Stuff

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer Tell the jokes!

Dale said: In response to that last paragraph (about everyone thinking only "their crowd" will go to heaven), I'd like to offer two Baha'i jokes that I heard years ago. They mix Christian imagery with Baha'i concepts, but they're fun.

A Baha'i dies and is met at the Gates of Heaven by St. Peter, who welcomes him and offers to show him around to get him oriented. "Heaven," St. Peter says, "is like a huge mansion, with lots of rooms in it. Here, for example, is the room where all of the Jews stay." He opens a door and lets him look inside, where a great many Jews are living.

"Over here," St. Peter says, "is where the Muslims stay." Again, he opens the door and lets the Baha'i look in for a few minutes. "This next room is for the Buddhists." Again, he is shown a room full of people. This goes on for a time, until St. Peter suddenly urges him to remain quiet, and they tiptoe past one more door. Once they're past it, the Baha'i asks, "What's in there, and why do we have to be so quiet?"

"Ah," St. Peter says. "That's where the Christians live. They like to think they're the only ones up here."

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A Baha'i dies and is met at the Gates of Heaven by St. Peter, who welcomes him and offers to show him around to get him oriented. To make this short, I'll just say he goes through the same deal as in the previous joke, except he gets to see the Christians. Finally, they come to one last door, which St. Peter opens. "This was built for the Baha'is," he says. But when the Baha'i looks in, he finds that the room is empty!

"Oh no!" he cries. "This can't be! How can I be the only Baha'i here??"

"Calm down," St. Peter says. "The Baha'is are all off travel teaching in hell."

 

[Rival]

I found this song today and like it a lot Padé, Caitlin Potter, & Joylin - Jenny of Oldstones (Official Audio) - YouTube

 

[mangalavara]

This is illegal according to Halacha, so not sure this was looked upon particularly favourably by Orthodox Jews lol.

She was originally Orthodox and ultimately switched to Karaism. I don't know a lot about Karaism, but I think a Karaite community would prefer that a Jewish woman marries a Jewish man considering that the question of 'Who is a Jew?' is determined by patrilineal descent or formal conversion within Karaism.

I can see why Christianity took off now. It would still be so much easier if I could have believed it, but I can't. Not now.

One reason I am not a Christian is that one of the claims of the Gospels, namely, that Jesus of Nazareth fulfilled prophecies in the Tanakh about himself, is a claim that I cannot affirm after having looked at the 'prophecies' in their context. I presume that is one reason you cannot believe in Christianity.

And if HaShem wants to stay silent then Kemeticism it is.

While other Abrahamics might say you will ultimately end up in some fiery abode for a thought crime, Jews might look at your deeds and say, 'Now she is one of the righteous among the nations!'

 

[Rival]

She was originally Orthodox and ultimately switched to Karaism. I don't know a lot about Karaism, but I think a Karaite community would prefer that a Jewish woman marries a Jewish man considering that the question of 'Who is a Jew?' is determined by patrilineal descent or formal conversion.

According to Orthodox Halacha a Jew can only marry a Jew. It goes by matrilineal descent.

One reason I am not a Christian is that one of the claims of the Gospels, namely, that Jesus of Nazareth fulfilled prophecies in the Tanakh about himself, is a claim that I cannot affirm after having looked at the 'prophecies' in their context. I presume that is one reason you cannot believe in Christianity.

It is. Plus more.

While other Abrahamics might say you will ultimately end up in some fiery abode for a thought crime, Jews might look at your deeds and say, 'Now she is one of the righteous among the nations!'

Jews expect non-Jews to follow the Noachide Code Seven Laws of Noah - Wikipedia

Essentially they expect you to have the same beliefs as Jews but your covenant is different so have fewer laws. If you don't, you're breaking the law(s), believing in false Gods, worshipping idols, denying Torah etc. Definitely not good. It's forbidden to make a new religion.

 

[mangalavara]

Essentially they expect you to have the same beliefs as Jews but your covenant is different so have fewer laws. If you don't, you're breaking the law(s), believing in false Gods, worshipping idols, denying Torah etc. Definitely not good. It's forbidden to make a new religion.

Yeah, well Hinduism is older than Judaism.

 

[Rival]

Yeah, well Hinduism is older than Judaism.

So is Kemeticism. So we win lol.

 

[mangalavara]

So is Kemeticism. So we win lol.

Indeed we do.

As an outsider, one thing that I like about Kemeticism is the concept of ma'at. It is like the Hindu concept of ṛta or dharma. Plus, we both have solar deities, and I suspect you have felt that unspeakable energy or whatever it is that one might feel when adoring a solar deity. I'm not at all a sunshine person, but I like solar deities.

 

[Rival]

Indeed we do.

As an outsider, one thing that I like about Kemeticism is the concept of ma'at. It is like the Hindu concept of ṛta or dharma. Plus, we both have solar deities, and I suspect you have felt that unspeakable energy or whatever it is that one might feel when adoring a solar deity. I'm not at all a sunshine person, but I like solar deities.

I still love this pic and wish there were more such,

 

[mangalavara]

I still love this pic and wish there were more such

Wow. That is beautiful... and touching.

 

[JustGeorge]

I still love this pic and wish there were more such,

Hiding in a book, I found a picture I started drawing a couple years ago.

It wasn't of Shiva, or Krishna, but Heryshaf.

Maybe one day, when I have some time and energy, I'll make some more...

(I also found a stone with an eye of Horus painted on it in my mudroom a few days ago...)

 

[Trailblazer]

One reason I am not a Christian is that one of the claims of the Gospels, namely, that Jesus of Nazareth fulfilled prophecies in the Tanakh about himself, is a claim that I cannot affirm after having looked at the 'prophecies' in their context. I presume that is one reason you cannot believe in Christianity.

I believe that Jesus fulfilled 'some' of the prophecies in the Tanakh but not all of them. Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies because those were not supposed to be fulfilled until the latter days, during the messianic age.

 

[Harel13]

Not even that as this wouldn't make the problem of HaShem not giving non-Jews a more fleshed out system go away.

There are those that argue that in the pre-Exodus era, the Noachidism of the time was essentially Judaism, minus the "in memory of the leaving of Egypt" parts. That means all special garments, temple duties, symbols, rituals and prayers fully existed within the workings of the covenant. What appears to have happened, per this theory, is that in the end, the only branch of Noachides left were the Israelites, and they had their covenant reworked into the Sinaitic covenant, which in a certain sense, was also an expanded version of the original one (more commandments, for example). Proto-Noachidism was now irrelevant because Judaism fulfilled the parts that needed to be fulfilled, and in any case, it would be many years before new Noachides began coming along.

As I already wrote once on RF, another theory is that Zoroastrianism was originally a monotheistic religion, intended to have been a way to draw the Persians to Noachidism. In light of the first theory, this makes even more sense: A religion with nothing but some laws isn't a religion, it's a do-and-do-not judicial instruction manual.

I suppose we could call it the tragedy of Noachidism. Historical circumstances have left it greatly minimized, and though it has been enjoying new life over the past 50 years or so, but there still much left to be desired and not enough people working on developing it further.

 

[Harel13]

A Baha'i dies and is met at the Gates of Heaven by St. Peter, who welcomes him and offers to show him around to get him oriented. "Heaven," St. Peter says, "is like a huge mansion, with lots of rooms in it. Here, for example, is the room where all of the Jews stay." He opens a door and lets him look inside, where a great many Jews are living.

"Over here," St. Peter says, "is where the Muslims stay." Again, he opens the door and lets the Baha'i look in for a few minutes. "This next room is for the Buddhists." Again, he is shown a room full of people. This goes on for a time, until St. Peter suddenly urges him to remain quiet, and they tiptoe past one more door. Once they're past it, the Baha'i asks, "What's in there, and why do we have to be so quiet?"

"Ah," St. Peter says. "That's where the Christians live. They like to think they're the only ones up here."

I'm going to be a classic Jew and say: "That's not how it goes, this is how it goes blah blah blah".
I have no idea who first invented the frame of this joke, but I originally heard it as a very, very niche modern-Orthodox joke about the students of a particular Israeli yeshiva who hold certain narrow-minded views about the rest of Orthodoxy.

 

[Rival]

There are those that argue that in the pre-Exodus era, the Noachidism of the time was essentially Judaism, minus the "in memory of the leaving of Egypt" parts. That means all special garments, temple duties, symbols, rituals and prayers fully existed within the workings of the covenant. What appears to have happened, per this theory, is that in the end, the only branch of Noachides left were the Israelites, and they had their covenant reworked into the Sinaitic covenant, which in a certain sense, was also an expanded version of the original one (more commandments, for example). Proto-Noachidism was now irrelevant because Judaism fulfilled the parts that needed to be fulfilled, and in any case, it would be many years before new Noachides began coming along.

As I already wrote once on RF, another theory is that Zoroastrianism was originally a monotheistic religion, intended to have been a way to draw the Persians to Noachidism. In light of the first theory, this makes even more sense: A religion with nothing but some laws isn't a religion, it's a do-and-do-not judicial instruction manual.

I suppose we could call it the tragedy of Noachidism. Historical circumstances have left it greatly minimized, and though it has been enjoying new life over the past 50 years or so, but there still much left to be desired and not enough people working on developing it further.

I think the first issue I'd see with this is how much could it reasonably be developed and who would be the authority?

The Zoroastrianism theory is an intriguing one and it's sad this faith has died, pretty much. It's not surprising it pulled at me, once.

We can only speculate if Christianity and Islam hadn't happened. The Pagan world was already embracing monotheism. Who knows bro

 

[Harel13]

I think the first issue I'd see with this is how much could it reasonably be developed and who would be the authority?

In my opinion, as long as Noachidism is viewed as a kind of "side-kick" to Judaism, I'm afraid that it'll probably never change much. I don't know if that's necessarily good or not. I mean, there are certainly some Noachides who are happy with it as it is. My point is that though modern Noachidism has Jewish authorities, I'm not entirely sure that's the way to go. Of course, it's entirely possible that what felled past iterations of Noachidism was its straying too far away from the original model by adding too many "extra" rituals and symbols, so maybe it does need to stick to Jewish authorities to keep it in check?

 

[Rival]

In my opinion, as long as Noachide is viewed as a kind of "side-kick" to Judaism, I'm afraid that it'll probably never change much. I don't know if that's necessarily good or not. I mean, there are certainly some Noachides who are happy with it as it is. My point is that though modern Noachidism has Jewish authorities, I'm not entirely sure that's the way to go. Of course, it's entirely possible that what felled past iterations of Noachidism was its straying too far away from the original model by adding too many "extra" rituals and symbols, so maybe it does need to stick to Jewish authorities to keep it in check?

This reminds me of an idea that's been floating around in my head for a while.

It seems most folks, realistically, don't want to live by too much religious restriction as we can see especially in Europe and even the US and pretty much anywhere where religion has become optional. A lot of the time it only seems to dominate because it's in law. Most folks aren't really bothered about intricate theology, scripture study, daily prayers etc. Even in Mediaeval Europe we find people caring more about gambling, sex, drink etc. as usual. They just want to get on with their lives.

Then there are those folks who do care. Those folks can be pretty hardcore. They're a minority, though, especially when given a choice whether or not to follow religion, most folks will often do the bare minimum.

The Noachidism/Judaism distinction would actually work pretty well in theory, perhaps? If those hardcore people could become Jews and those who were not so interested just had to follow basic religiosity and otherwise be able to leave religion alone - not have to go to a house of worship, not have to pray x times a day, not have to observe niddah or kashrut etc. Those who do want those things could become Jewish and be hardcore.

Dunno tho.

 

[Harel13]

The Noachide/Judaism distinction would actually work pretty well in practice, perhaps? If those hardcore people could become Jews and those who were not so interested just had to follow basic religiosity and otherwise be able to leave religion alone - not have to go to a house of worship, not have to prayer x times a day, not have to observe niddah or kashrut etc. Those who do want those things could become Jewish and be hardcore.

That's an interesting point, though what comes to mind is "נבל ברשות התורה" (a sordid person within the permissible realm of the Torah). I doubt even a "minimal" religion such as Noachidism would be willing to be the "religious checkbox" (= got a religion? Check) and then allow people to go on with their lives as-is. What I mean is that even things that would technically be allowed would still make you look like a religious low-life, so gambling? Nope. Excessive drinking? Nope. Etc. These things would simply still be frowned upon within the the more spiritual aspect of the religion. In short, like it or not, even the basic religiosity of Noachidism may be considered to be more advanced than, say, what non-practicing Christians follow.

 

[Rival]

That's an interesting point, though what comes to mind is "נבל ברשות התורה" (a sordid person within the permissible realm of the Torah). I doubt even a "minimal" religion such as Noachidism would be willing to be the "religious checkbox" (= got a religion? Check) and then allow people to go on with their lives as-is. What I mean is that even things that would technically be allowed would still make you look like a religious low-life, so gambling? Nope. Excessive drinking? Nope. Etc. These things would simply still be frowned upon within the the more spiritual aspect of the religion. In short, like it or not, even the basic religiosity of Noachidism may be considered to be more advanced than, say, what non-practicing Christians follow.

I imagined it would keep these things in check, so things like excessive drinking, and gambling etc. would be curtailed legally, but then again that is kind of a bare minimum for me As a child I recall being baffled at how my babysitter was pregnant when she wasn't married lol.

 

[YoursTrue]

That's an interesting point, though what comes to mind is "נבל ברשות התורה" (a sordid person within the permissible realm of the Torah). I doubt even a "minimal" religion such as Noachidism would be willing to be the "religious checkbox" (= got a religion? Check) and then allow people to go on with their lives as-is. What I mean is that even things that would technically be allowed would still make you look like a religious low-life, so gambling? Nope. Excessive drinking? Nope. Etc. These things would simply still be frowned upon within the the more spiritual aspect of the religion. In short, like it or not, even the basic religiosity of Noachidism may be considered to be more advanced than, say, what non-practicing Christians follow.

It's kind of like a family arrangement in a religion that is applying the guidelines of the holy scriptures.

 

[Rival]

Sometimes I feel as though I've let my Jewish friends down by doing this. I didn't want to have to say, 'I'm sorry, I can't do this,' as though I lacked faith or conviction. I've been reading some testimonies of folks who left Judaism and few if any resonate with me, because I'm just not in the same boat. It is becoming easier though and I need to work through this at my own pace. I'm open to chat in PMs if folks want to discuss things more personally as a lot of folks have been willing to do (although for my admirers out there - sorry, I'm not available ). I like the path I'm on and would like to hear others' testimonies about how they came to where they are.

It's in some ways hard not to be bitter, but given that I interact with Christians and Jews here on pretty much a daily basis, holding on to that is refreshingly hard. I have little to no ill feelings towards Abrahamic groups. I'm mostly just sad I could not find my place among them. I kind of wish the Jews had been a more conquering kind of people and... Ah well.

I am grateful for the support I've been given and the non-judgemental way folks have gone about discussing this with me.

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