Romans 6:23

[james2ko]

may i ask what denomination you are if you identify with any?

The one alluded to in Mat 16:18

 

[Iti oj]

The one alluded to in Mat 16:18

"

And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it,

so the church of peter...thats makes you an RC, yes?

 

[james2ko]

this

<font class="woj">And I tell you that you are Peter,

No..The denomination Christ describes in the second half:

Mat 16:18
​

And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
​

 

[Pegg]

No..The denomination Christ describes in the second half:

Mat 16:18​

And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

i've often wondered what your denomination is too, but i'm still unsure

c'mon, give it up

 

[Pegg]

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
all the various translations i read all seem to say the same thing that with god/jesus their is no eternal life only death. how then can hell be eternal or even anything more then a metaphor?
surely this also vibes better with a message of a loving god.

Romans 6:23 is written to explain the reason why mankind die...and yes, death is the end of conscious life as we know it.

Gods love is expressed through Jesus sacrifice for the purpose of removing sin from us so that we can live forever:

1 John 2:2 And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s.

Jude 21 keep yourselves in God’s love, while YOU are waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ with everlasting life in view

hell is the grave/tomb... but the scriptures say that all who exist in hell/death will come out to a resurrection of 'life'

John 5:28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

but gehenna was not forever. It was quick just like you said. also the pit no longer burns yes?

Mark 9:47-48:

And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell [Greek: Gehenna], where "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."

Revelation 14:9-11:

9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [f]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and [g]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and [h]whoever receives the mark of his name.”

It certainly seems to me that the Bible describes eternal torment. Maybe it also describes a non-eternal Hell or a universalist Heaven in other spots, but to me, that doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't describing an eternal Hell here. It's no skin off my nose if the Bible's message is inconsistent.

 

[jtartar]

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
all the various translations i read all seem to say the same thing that with god/jesus their is no eternal life only death. how then can hell be eternal or even anything more then a metaphor?


surely this also vibes better with a message of a loving god.

Iti oj,
Could it be that there is no such thing as the hell that many people believe in???
Could it be that the Greek word translated Hell, actually HADES, only means a place of the dead, and in no way hints as a place of everlasting punishment???
Consider what has been called The Gospel in Miniature, John 3:16. This scripture contains almost all of the principle points of salvation. If you believe in and follow Jesus you will not be destroyed, but have everlasting life. God loved His creation so much that He allowed His son Jesus to come to earth to provide a Corresponding Ransom for us, so that we have the opportunity to receive the very same blessings as Adam and Eve had at the beginning.
In several places in Revelation the idea of TORMENT is spoken of, Rev 14:10, 20:10. Have you ever heard that women in olden times used to say; Please do not torment me like that. They were speaking of a person irritating them, not physical torture. In the first century JAILERS were often called TORMENTORS, because the kept people locked away from anything good. At Matt 18:34, in the KJV of the Bible it is recorded that jailor were called tormentors.
Since the Bible says that all who are not written n the Book of Life will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, The Second DEATH, it is not possible for anyone to feel pain when they are DEAD, Ecc 9:5,10.
The Bible actually tells us exactly what wicked ones will experience, at 2Thess 1:6-9. The punishment is Everlasting destruction,or death, not life any place.

 

[rusra02]

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
all the various translations i read all seem to say the same thing that with god/jesus their is no eternal life only death. how then can hell be eternal or even anything more then a metaphor?


surely this also vibes better with a message of a loving god.

You are correct in your understanding of Romans 6:23. The wages of sin is death, which is what God told Adam, not eternal torment or pain of loss. The gift of eternal life is in contrast to the deserved punishment of eternal death. A loving God would not literally torture anyone for all eternity, even the Devil. Any such "torment" mentioned in Revelation is symbolic of eternal restraint in death.The lake of fire spoken of in Revelation is "the second death" from which no resurrection occurs. (Revelation 20:14) The greek word for "torment" is derived from the word for "touchstone", and may refer to the torment of imprisonment. That a condition of restraint can be spoken of as "torment" is shown by the parallel accounts at Matthew 8:29 and Luke 8:31.
Satan's eternal "torment" also indicates his judgment will serve as an everlasting touchstone or completed test, that forever proves the rightness of Jehovah's sovereignty, and the baseless slander of any who dare challenge God's sovereignty in the future, as Satan did.

 

[Iti oj]

Its nice to see so many people holding this view. Raises my faith in humanity and faith. Lol xp mr.penguin sir I think your points have been adressed at least twice in this thread

 

[Muffled]

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
all the various translations i read all seem to say the same thing that with god/jesus their is no eternal life only death. how then can hell be eternal or even anything more then a metaphor?


surely this also vibes better with a message of a loving god.

Obviously you aren't finding the right verses.

Death in this sense is not the loss of physical life although it can entail that as well.
Death in the spirit is akin to poverty in the spirit. If the spirit is dead physical life does not improve the spiritual condition. The Christian has life not in the physical sense but the spiritual so that continues on forever whether in the body or not.

There are two meanings to eternal. 1. Everlasting 2. without time.
All spiritual states outside the body are timeless and therefore eternal but those states may be ended by re-incarnation.

The context does not allow it to be viewed as a metaphor.

It is correct to say that God never gives up completely on anyone. However without a time reference Hell will seem like an eternity and no doubt it will be an extremely long time before evil is allowed on earth again.

 

[Muffled]

this


No..The denomination Christ describes in the second half:

Mat 16:18
​

And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
​

That isn't a denomination. It is the catholic church (not to be confused with RC).

I always viewed you as a JW but this verse sounds more like Mormon.

 

[Muffled]

i've often wondered what your denomination is too, but i'm still unsure

c'mon, give it up

He lists himself as a Christian as do I. Perhaps he is non-denominational as I am although I do tend to lean towards my Baptist roots some.

 

[Katzpur]

I always viewed you as a JW but this verse sounds more like Mormon.

Iti oj is not a Mormon. Keep guessing.

 

[Iti oj]

Kat I don't think he was refering to me... what do you think i am? Xp

 

[James Humphreys]

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
all the various translations i read all seem to say the same thing that with god/jesus their is no eternal life only death. how then can hell be eternal or even anything more then a metaphor?


surely this also vibes better with a message of a loving god.

I believe the death referred to here is spiritual death-the state of being separated from God's love. I think there a lot of verses that can shed light on that, but think for a moment about Luke 9:60. Jesus tells a disciple who wants to attend the funeral of his father "Let the dead bury their own dead." I think it is fair to say here that Jesus is saying let the spiritually dead (but alive physically) bury the physically dead.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Its nice to see so many people holding this view. Raises my faith in humanity and faith. Lol xp mr.penguin sir I think your points have been adressed at least twice in this thread

No, they haven't.

I don't really care about the semantic hand-waving about distinctions between terms like "gehenna" and "sheol"; whatever term is used, the passages I quote describe the thing as a place where people go after they die that's unpleasant and eternal.

And I don't really care about reconciling books of the Bible against each other. They're books written over centuries by different people. Interpreting the Gospels to be consistent with Revelation makes about as much sense as basing your interpretation of Bram Stoker's Dracula on the Twilight books just because they were both about vampires, IMO.

 

[Iti oj]

No, they haven't.

I don't really care about the semantic hand-waving about distinctions between terms like "gehenna" and "sheol"; whatever term is used, the passages I quote describe the thing as a place where people go after they die that's unpleasant and eternal.

And I don't really care about reconciling books of the Bible against each other. They're books written over centuries by different people. Interpreting the Gospels to be consistent with Revelation makes about as much sense as basing your interpretation of Bram Stoker's Dracula on the Twilight books just because they were both about vampires, IMO.

Well obviously as an atheist i agree but its good to try and think and see from other view points. and just because the fire burns unsated does not mean we burn for ever, not does it show who/what the worm is. the worm is probably satan. and the fire will burn us and is never sated because we burn quickly =D

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well obviously as an atheist i agree but its good to try and think and see from other view points. and just because the fire burns unsated does not mean we burn for ever, not does it show who/what the worm is. the worm is probably satan.

Where do you get that from? I think it's more reasonable to interpret "the worm" as "the soul".

Edit: and the passage doesn't say "the worm"; it says "their worm"... the "worm", whatever it is, is something possessed by the individual sinner.

and the fire will burn us and is never sated because we burn quickly =D

That makes no sense. A fire that burns quickly doesn't need to be quenched because it simply burns itself out.

If we go with the analogy, a fire burns as long as it has fuel, and the fuel in this case is souls. If souls stop being fed into Hell at some point (which is kinda the point of Christ's Second Coming, right?), then this means that a finite amount of fuel will last an infinite amount of time... IOW, that the fuel (i.e. damned souls) will burn forever.

 

[Iti oj]

Where do you get that from? I think it's more reasonable to interpret "the worm" as "the soul".


That makes no sense. A fire that burns quickly doesn't need to be quenched because it simply burns itself out.

If we go with the analogy, a fire burns as long as it has fuel, and the fuel in this case is souls. If souls stop being fed into Hell at some point (which is kinda the point of Christ's Second Coming, right?), then this means that a finite amount of fuel will last an infinite amount of time... IOW, that the fuel (i.e. damned souls) will burn forever.

at that point ghenna will be cast out empty into the fiery pit...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

at that point ghenna will be cast out empty into the fiery pit...

Where are you getting this from?

And saying stuff like that doesn't reconcile the passage with anything; it contradicts it. "Forever and ever" means "forever and ever". If you hypothesize an end to "forever and ever", then you're saying that "forever and ever" was wrong.

And if we're picking and choosing which parts of the Bible to believe, apparently without regard to any sort of scholarship about their intended meanings, then why is there any reason to tone down the nastier parts of the Bible to reconcile them with the less nasty parts?