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Ron Paul

yossarian22

Resident Schizophrenic
I used to hold a significant amount of cash in USD. I've put it into commodities because hyperinflation has me concerned. If you think the fiat dollar is superior by all means make your case. I have a personal interest in hearing your rationale.
Hyperinflation?
As in inflation over 1000%? Why would you be worried about that?

I'm just going to use the typical given commodity of gold for my examples. It does not really matter what commodity you use, however.

No control over monetary policy. Easiest example is a currency strengthens relative to the USD. Under the gold standard, this cannot happen (or you weaken the USD overall) so the Fed raises interest rates probably causing a recession (depends on how high the interest rates had to be adjusted).

Inflation rate determined by the rate gold is mined. If say, a giant war breaks out and mining operations are shut down, then you will get a long period of deflation.

Government expeditures and expansion is limited by the amount of gold currently in their coffers. Which is terrible if you follow Keynesian economic thought.

Trade would require actually moving moving gold around. If a country should happen to lose a large shipment of gold, they would continue to run a deficit, which would hose the economy of that country (because they are on the gold standard).

You think socialism has historically beat capitalism? Now I'm really interested in hearing your arguments. I think.
No. Historically, capitalism has sucked, especially when it had little to no regulation put on it.


And how is this a verdict on Libertarian ideals, exactly?
Unfettered capitalism kinda sucked. Now what was it libertarianism wanted? Oh right, free markets. I, for one, don't enjoy eating sausages that are 60% meat 12% cartilage and 28% "other".

Good point, bad example. Failure is necessary for capitalism to work.
The current mess we are in a fine example of how stupid people are. Hell Greenspan himself said as much. Banks stopped acting rationally and pursued massive risk for short term gains. Gains made entirely possible due to the deregulation of financial markets, particularly involving credit default swaps.

Okay, I guess I need to say it. Libertarians are not anarchists.
I know that. I was pointing out that your two quotes were misleading given that the people who agreed with the former might not necessarily agree with the latter due to the inclusion of "the role of the government." Sorry for being unclear.
 

Jackytar

Ex-member
Hyperinflation?
As in inflation over 1000%? Why would you be worried about that?

Are you pulling this stuff out of your hat? Where the heck did you get that definition?

I'm just going to use the typical given commodity of gold for my examples. It does not really matter what commodity you use, however. No control over monetary policy.

If you know anything about monetary policy, you know that it isn't as simple as your "example". Besides, up until now the feds have conducted monetary policy as if there still were a gold standard (of sorts) in place. Look for that to change as we continue to accumulate debt. Check your history books if you don't believe me.

Personally, the gold standard is not a front burner issue for me. That train left the station a long time ago and it ain't coming back. Ron Paul was engaging in magical thinking to believe he could pull that one off. Just like Huckabee and his flat tax.

Unfettered capitalism kinda sucked. Now what was it libertarianism wanted? Oh right, free markets. I, for one, don't enjoy eating sausages that are 60% meat 12% cartilage and 28% "other".

Then don't buy it. Or better yet - make better sausage! See how this works?

The current mess we are in a fine example of how stupid people are.

As opposed to how smart you are? So smart that you think you know better how to allocate my resources than I do? That proposes a system of government that forces me to pay for and participate in your grand social scheme? I have only one answer to that, and it ain't polite.

Hell Greenspan himself said as much. Banks stopped acting rationally and pursued massive risk for short term gains. Gains made entirely possible due to the deregulation of financial markets, particularly involving credit default swaps.

At least partly to blame is the government favoring one type of economic activity - home buying - over another. Also lack of transparency in the shadow financial markets. Individuals need good information to make good decisions. Plus the complexity of the derivatives that required career mathematicians to devise them. Then there's greed, group think and on and on but guess what? Investing is gambling. Sometimes you lose, and if you bet big you can lose big. Were you *****ing when the value of your home and of your investments decoupled from overall economic growth? I got out of the stock market in February of 2008 because I could see the economy was overheated. And I stayed well clear of real estate because we were clearly in a bubble, even while friends were jumping on board and calling me foolish not to "get in on it". And guess what else? I'm going to pay for it anyway because folks like you think that it's not fair to tie reward to risk and hard work. Not only am I an investor, I'm a business owner in a highly competitive market with a lot of MY MONEY at stake in this economy. This is not all ethereal to me. A level playing field is all I ask for. What is it that you want?

I know that.

Then why do you keep using the term "unfettered capitalism" in reference to Libertarians?

Historically, capitalism has sucked, especially when it had little to no regulation put on it.

You are pulling stuff out of your hat, aren't you? Simple declaratives about this sucks and that's retarded. Well, not surprisingly, I'm not convinced by your searing insights. If you don't mind I'd just as soon not have you running the economy.

Jackytar
 
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JamieA1A

Member
It appears to me that both liberals and conservatives (neo cons) dislike Dr Paul and his message. Could it mostly be because they need to control other people and libertarians don't?
 

yossarian22

Resident Schizophrenic
Are you pulling this stuff out of your hat? Where the heck did you get that definition?
It is poorly defined but 50% per month is a pretty widely accepted definition. Feel free to calculate what that comes out to per year.

If you know anything about monetary policy, you know that it isn't as simple as your "example".
It pretty much is. A country that pegs itself on a commodity will have to somehow withdraw money from circulation in this situation. In our case, that would be accomplished by raising interest rates through the fed.
Then don't buy it. Or better yet - make better sausage! See how this works?
How dense are you? Operating under the very same tenets of the free market, the meat packers overworked their employees in unsanitary conditions and actively fought unionization in order to deliver sausage (and other meat products) as cheaply as possible, something people failed to notice because nobody can really tell whats in a sausage to begin with. Sure "start making your own" sounds great, but it fails to acknowledge that there should have never been a problem in the first place.

Fundamentally, businesses will want to do something similar whenever they can get away with it because it provides the most return on their investment. Furthermore "compete with them" might have worked around 20000 BC when the most advanced thing was a sharp rock, but many companies operate in areas with extremely high start-up costs (telecoms, utilities) or require extensive research and development that prevent businesses from starting up.
As opposed to how smart you are?
What are you, twelve?

Let's summarize what put us in this current mess. Financial institutes took on massive risk under the assumption that the economy would continue to do well and then combined this with a giant jumbled mess of counterparty risk.

I certainly wouldn't describe it as intelligent.

At least partly to blame is the government favoring one type of economic activity - home buying - over another.
Even if this is true, the government at worst delayed the current collapse with this action.

They did, however, allow for it to happen with poor regulation.

A level playing field is all I ask for. What is it that you want?
For the stupidity that caused the current mess to be illegal.

I don't care if you make a stupid investment with your money. I care when you make a stupid investment with money that you would need to pay off another party, who owes money to another party or two, who owe a bit of money to you and that other guy, etc that will screw over the entire economy should your particular investment fail.

Then why do you keep using the term "unfettered capitalism" in reference to Libertarians?
Because Libertarianism has Laissez-faire as one of its de facto tenets.
You are pulling stuff out of your hat, aren't you?
Jackytar
Want a citation?
Look at US history from 1860-1910. Or just read about Roosevelt and his trust busting (and why it was needed).
 

Jackytar

Ex-member
It is poorly defined but 50% per month is a pretty widely accepted definition.

Yes, it's poorly defined but you want to stick to the extreme definition anyway.
Nevermind that the term is being used all over the financial press to warn investors of "an inflationary cycle without any tendency toward equilibrium." (wiki)

How dense are you?

Libertarians are retarded, but you already knew that.

Operating under the very same tenets of the free market, the meat packers overworked their employees in unsanitary conditions and actively fought unionization in order to deliver sausage (and other meat products) as cheaply as possible, something people failed to notice because nobody can really tell whats in a sausage to begin with. Sure "start making your own" sounds great, but it fails to acknowledge that there should have never been a problem in the first place.

Under Libertarian principles, union busting would be illegal. Individuals are free to from collectives, as long as they are voluntarily entered into. It would also be illegal to misrepresent your product (breach of contract) or to produce an unsanitary product (breach of contract, causing physical harm).

Fundamentally, businesses will want to do something similar whenever they can get away with it because it provides the most return on their investment.

Under Libertarian principles this would be countered by the above mentioned principles of contract and harm and by competitors operating in a free market. Libertarians are just as repulsed by raw greed as anybody else.

Furthermore "compete with them" might have worked around 20000 BC when the most advanced thing was a sharp rock, but many companies operate in areas with extremely high start-up costs (telecoms, utilities) or require extensive research and development that prevent businesses from starting up.

Then you will have to explain why deregulation resulted in lower consumer prices in both telecom and energy. And why new companies are entering these markets all the time.

What are you, twelve?

Oh snap!
Dude, I'm retarded, and it, like, sucks.

Let's summarize what put us in this current mess. Financial institutes took on massive risk under the assumption that the economy would continue to do well and then combined this with a giant jumbled mess of counterparty risk.

The assumption was that home prices would continue to rise. And any fair assessment of the mess leads back to the Feds slashing interest rates to prop up the economy after the dot-com bust, and congress writing tax laws to favor real estate investment and home ownership by low-income individuals. Greed and shenanigans flourished under these artificial economic conditions. You want to make this illegal, but to achieve that congress would have to develop supernatural powers of foresight. The next mess will look completely different, and be equally as unexpected. The best solution is to let the economy run under sound economic principles, which means to quit trying to tweak it to conform to a socialist agenda, however well intended. The law of unintended consequences looms eternal. You keep trying to plug up the leaks with more tweaks and eventually you have a bureaucratic mess that wastes resources, stagnates economic activity, skews incentives beyond recognition, favors losing technologies, and creates false micro-economies that cheaters can game to their advantage. Financial services are necessary to allocate resources properly but creating wealth out of thin air - when you are not actually producing a good or service - is called gambling. And these gamblers - everybody from the homeowner to the hapless oil sheik looking for a place to stash his wealth - saw what looked like a sure bet - the American mortgage market - backed by the full weight of the American federal government with your implicit support.

You want to outlaw stupidity? Go ahead. But what are you going to do when the revolution comes for you?

Libertarianism has Laissez-faire as one of its de facto tenets.

Yes, but this doesn't mean turning a blind eye when companies like Enron and Worldcom are defrauding investors. Libertarians do not say that vigilance by regulators is bad, or that the influence that business has on politics and law making is good. They just say just the opposite. Mostly we are concerned with what those regulations are, if they make sense, if they are based on sound economic, social and political principles.

Look at US history from 1860-1910. Or just read about Roosevelt and his trust busting (and why it was needed).

Sure. I give you Social Security and Medicare as examples of how socialism has failed. You counter with a sausage factory from the 19th century.

Jackytar
 
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Zephyr

Moved on
It appears to me that both liberals and conservatives (neo cons) dislike Dr Paul and his message. Could it mostly be because they need to control other people and libertarians don't?

Nah, though both the Democrats and the Republicans are control freaks. People just dislike Dr. Nobrains because his policies would be disastrous to the country. Neocons have their complaints about his social issues (despite him being pretty conservative in a few places), while liberals see right through his ******** economic policies.
 

Jackytar

Ex-member
Nah, though both the Democrats and the Republicans are control freaks. People just dislike Dr. Nobrains because his policies would be disastrous to the country. Neocons have their complaints about his social issues (despite him being pretty conservative in a few places), while liberals see right through his ******** economic policies.

Do you even know what a neocon is? (Hint: They're not exactly identified by their stance on social issues.) Neocons differ sharply with Libertarians on foreign policy. Libertarians do not believe in hegemony and were completely opposed to the Iraq war.

And liberals don't like his policies, which is for government to stay out of people's lives. Now, what is the counterpoint to staying out of people's lives? Hmmmm... JamieA1A is way closer to the truth than you are.

You folks need to familiarize yourself with Libertarian philosophy before you decide you don't like it. Y'all seem to equate it with cronyism, greed, industrial tyrants and the like, that stands in opposition to reasonable rules for fair business practices. This is a profound misperception.

Ron Paul was not a good communicator, and an even worse politician, so it's no surprise that he was misunderstood by folks not familiar with Libertarian principles. For example, somebody noted that he voted against funding for stem cell research. It wasn't that Ron Paul was in lockstep with conservatives who voted on religious grounds (although Christianity does inform his politics, no doubt.) He was voting on principle. The principle that we are forcing a large group of people to pay for something that they passionately oppose. I disagree with those people, but on principle I agree with Ron Paul (this time). I'm not a rigid or dogmatic person, but Libertarian principles make sense. A vote for Federal funding on stem cell research , as much as I'd like to see it happen, would be a unjustifiable coercive act by our Government. It is one group of people telling another what's best for them, and taking their money to use in ways that they oppose. Are you comfortable with that? As I said, what are you going to do when the revolution comes for you?

Jackytar
 

yossarian22

Resident Schizophrenic
Yes, it's poorly defined but you want to stick to the extreme definition anyway.
How is this "extreme" in anyway?
Hyperinflation is something that happened in Bolivia or the Weimar Republic. Hyperinflation has an extreme definition because it is an extreme term. Galloping inflation or whatever economists decide to call it is far more realistic and still fairly dangerous.

And really, the press was going to call Swine Flu a pandemic; it's not like they are well known for their lack of exaggeration.


Libertarians are retarded, but you already knew that.
The philosophy is certainly.

Under Libertarian principles, union busting would be illegal. Individuals are free to from collectives, as long as they are voluntarily entered into. It would also be illegal to misrepresent your product (breach of contract) or to produce an unsanitary product (breach of contract, causing physical harm).
Breach of contract? Do you really think you can sue a drug company over a faulty product for breach of contract? They can simply stick a no-guarantee clause in there and get away with it easily.

Also, "union busting" does not have a nice clean methodology. Its not like companies
will blatantly fire all union workers and publicly announce this, but there are literally hundreds of ways for companies to pressure worker unionization. Saying "oh it will be illegal" doesn't fix anything because it is illegal now and it still happens.

Under Libertarian principles this would be countered by the above mentioned principles of contract and harm and by competitors operating in a free market.
We had all of this in 1890. It didn't stop anybody then, and it sure as hell won't stop anybody now. So its somewhat obvious we need more than just the above.

Then you will have to explain why deregulation resulted in lower consumer prices in both telecom and energy. And why new companies are entering these markets all the time.
Telecom quality is abysmal and getting worse, broadband is ridiculously expensive in areas where telecos have a monopoly, and telecoms are essentially refusing to upgrade their infrastructure and want to initiate download caps and throttlign to artificially lower traffic. Just look at the US's broadband penetration if you think deregulation was a success.

Also, our power infrastructure, quite frankly, sucks and we desperately need a new one.

The assumption was that home prices would continue to rise. And any fair assessment of the mess leads back to the Feds slashing interest rates to prop up the economy after the dot-com bust, and congress writing tax laws to favor real estate investment and home ownership by low-income individuals.
If by fair you mean "I don't wnat to blame any financial companies whatsoever."

The assumption was that the economy would rise (AIG had CDS insurance on more than just mortages), property value just being the largest chunk of it. This whole thing would have never happened if CDS and CDS insurances were properly regulated.

Sure, low interest rates and easy loans helped it. But they by no means caused it. (Especially the former, which is essentially standard practice in a recession)
Greed and shenanigans flourished under these artificial economic conditions. You want to make this illegal, but to achieve that congress would have to develop supernatural powers of foresight.
No, congress would have to develop a spine and start regulating the financial sector.
We can pretty much blame this one on bill: the Commodity Futures Modernization Act which basically made CDSs exempt from regulation. If this bill hand't been passed, AIG would not have been allowed to take an essentially insolvent position.

This is the same bill that caused that created the Enron loophole.

We can, and did, regulate the financial sector perfectly fine up until the 1980s or so. There is absolutely no reason why we can't do it again, rants about "ineffeciency" aside.


Yes, but this doesn't mean turning a blind eye when companies like Enron and Worldcom are defrauding investors. Libertarians do not say that vigilance by regulators is bad,
They just say that regulations are bad.

We are talking about a group that was against desegregation laws for buisnesses.

Sure. I give you Social Security and Medicare as examples of how socialism has failed. You counter with a sausage factory from the 19th century.

Jackytar
I can also point to about half of South America and half of the former USSR as examples of how capitalism has failed. Whoopdeedoo.

Also, Social Security and Medicare are both horrible examples. Medicare should really be universal healthcare and social security's main problem is that we tend to borrow massively from it (not to mention the problem the baby boomers bose), but we could easily make it work if we used the marginal tax rate from the 1960s. But that won't happen, given that people tend to start yelling about class warfare if we raise tax rates by a couple of percent.
 

yossarian22

Resident Schizophrenic
House Vote On Passage: H.R. 4541 [106th]: Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000

Only 4 nays. Ron Paul was one of them.
Funny how nobody in congress saw this coming. No, Ron Paul didn't see it coming either. He was opposed on principle.
The principle that commodies should be priced according to supply and demand, not by the whim of speculators using the markets as a casino.

Jackytar
That is an interesting principle considering "the whim of speculators" is yet another example of market forces.

Now all Ron Paul has to do is stop being a libertarian and I would vote for him.
 
To be blunt, the man is a raving reactionary lunatic riding the wave of support offered by an apparently ill-informed public. Ron Paul’s policies represent a destruction of progress and an acceptance of backward motion, based on a warped perception of the world. Rather than a revolution, Ron Paul’s election would spark a crippling regression which
uould undue the hard work of two centuries of American citizens.

His son Rand Paul is no better. I think both are guilty of treason in one way or another.

Ron Paul's political beliefs:

1. Destroying public education
2. Associating with ultra-Right racist groups and professing their ideas
3. Opposing universal health care for all, while extolling the virtues of profit-hungry insurance corporations in the name of 'free enterprise'.
4. Opposing student financial aid, eliminating Stafford Loans and Pell Grants
5. Destroying the environment in the name of "business freedom"
6. Stripping women of the right to choose, implementing coercive ‘pro-life’ polices at the Federal Level (see the Sanctity of Life Act)
7. Supporting and professing anti-Gay, homophobic cultural politics
8. Allying with the Religious Right and opposing state/church separation (Ron Paul doesn’t believe in evolution…)
9. Destroying NPR and PBS and all public programming
10. Supporting xenophobic, draconian and racist anti-immigrant policies
11. Purveying anti-worker policies that suppress union organization and favor Big Business
12. Favoring the abolishment of the minimum wage in the name of ‘freedom for business ownership’
13. Redistributing income from the working and middle classes to the wealthy and rich, by means of ‘tax reform’.
14. Allying with Republican hard-liners who want to abolish Social Security, the Nation’s most popular social program ever
15. Using earmarks to siphon billions of dollars to his district for pork projects.
16. Pulling billions of dollars from Israel and enforcing far-right isolationist politics.
 

Jackytar

Ex-member
This is such a collection of hogwash it doesn't warrent a comprehensive response. I only encourage people to learn about Libertarian principles for themselves. I'll tackle a couple of lines as an example of how this dunderhead is willfully spreading misinformation in support of his politics...

5. Destroying the environment in the name of "business freedom"

Ron Paul quotes:

"In a free-market system, nobody is permitted to pollute their neighbor's private property -- water, air, or land. It is very strict."

"To the extent property rights are strictly enforced against those who would pollute the land or air of another, the costs of any environmental harm associated with an energy source would be imposed upon the producer of that energy source, and, in so doing, the cheap sources that pollute are not so cheap anymore."

link

11. Purveying anti-worker policies that suppress union organization and favor Big Business

Simply untrue inflamatory BS.
link

(Ron Paul doesn’t believe in evolution…)

True. Ron Paul is a devout Christian. An imperfect candidate for Libertarians. We are not religious right wingers.

link

Shame on you Jewishleftist, using tactics no different than those used by right wingers to attack a principled man in this manner.
I can similarly assault any one of these "points" but I am clearly tilting at windmills here.


Jackytar
 
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NoahideHiker

Religious Headbanger
I like Ron's over-arching concept of less government and more freedom but he came out too strong too fast. The kind of reforms he called for can't be done all at once. I think Bob Barr was a better choice on that consideration. Definitely better than the two who were in the two turd party race most chose from.
 

Zephyr

Moved on
Libertarians make the worst lovers.

Only a Socialist knows how to treat a woman according to her needs.

Edit: I have the ability. She has the needs. Just distributing the love.
 
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Zephyr

Moved on
To be blunt, the man is a raving reactionary lunatic riding the wave of support offered by an apparently ill-informed public. Ron Paul’s policies represent a destruction of progress and an acceptance of backward motion, based on a warped perception of the world. Rather than a revolution, Ron Paul’s election would spark a crippling regression which
uould undue the hard work of two centuries of American citizens.

His son Rand Paul is no better. I think both are guilty of treason in one way or another.

Ron Paul's political beliefs:

1. Destroying public education
2. Associating with ultra-Right racist groups and professing their ideas
3. Opposing universal health care for all, while extolling the virtues of profit-hungry insurance corporations in the name of 'free enterprise'.
4. Opposing student financial aid, eliminating Stafford Loans and Pell Grants
5. Destroying the environment in the name of "business freedom"
6. Stripping women of the right to choose, implementing coercive ‘pro-life’ polices at the Federal Level (see the Sanctity of Life Act)
7. Supporting and professing anti-Gay, homophobic cultural politics
8. Allying with the Religious Right and opposing state/church separation (Ron Paul doesn’t believe in evolution…)
9. Destroying NPR and PBS and all public programming
10. Supporting xenophobic, draconian and racist anti-immigrant policies
11. Purveying anti-worker policies that suppress union organization and favor Big Business
12. Favoring the abolishment of the minimum wage in the name of ‘freedom for business ownership’
13. Redistributing income from the working and middle classes to the wealthy and rich, by means of ‘tax reform’.
14. Allying with Republican hard-liners who want to abolish Social Security, the Nation’s most popular social program ever
15. Using earmarks to siphon billions of dollars to his district for pork projects.
16. Pulling billions of dollars from Israel and enforcing far-right isolationist politics.

Also I'm gonna quote this.
 
Do liberals actually argue that Paul is wrong about the Federal Reserve and the boom/bust cycle?

The Federal Reserve is only part of the problem. The bigger problem is that the rich have too much money and their wealth needs to be spread around. They can't be allowed to hoard wealth when it leads to social inequality. Everyone must be equal.
 

Zephyr

Moved on
The Federal Reserve is only part of the problem. The bigger problem is that the rich have too much money and their wealth needs to be spread around. They can't be allowed to hoard wealth when it leads to social inequality. Everyone must be equal.

Not sure I entirely agree with you here, but I agree that the rich have some issues with wealth. Not just money mind you, but in owning the means of production. So long as the means of production remain the hands of a few, there will never be economic or social justice.

Everyone must have the chance to be equal though. When a white boy from a rich family and a native girl from a poor family have the same opportunity to make a good living for him/herself, I'll be satisfied.
 
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