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Ruins at Puma Punku

Rio Sabinas

Old Geezer
I watched the complete series "Ancient Aliens" on the History Channel.

The ruins at Puma Punku in the Bolivian highlands was fasinating to me. There was clearly a technology at work there we don't have any record of. Ancient Aliens? The
Atlanteans? I can't buy into either of those on the evidence provided.
I do agree with the Archeologists that it was not done by the Aymara Indians with
stone tools....so what does that leave?

Your opinions please.
 

Rio Sabinas

Old Geezer
K-T
Inside boxes accurate to a couple of thousanths of an inch. Narrow channels w/parallel sides & accurate depth the entire length. These blocks were cut from Granite & Dirurite (not sure of that last spelling, it's pronounced dire-you-right)) We do not have the technology to do that today on the scale used there. Even on a very small project it takes Diamond tipped tools to work Dirurite. Yes, the Aymara's could have used Diamond tools, but with that type of repeatable accuracy? That kind of construction needs detailed planning. As far as I know, the Aymara's didn't even have a written language.
I believe ancient people were as smart or even smarter in some ways as we are today.
I can't even begin to imagine how Puma Punku was built. I guess that's the fasination.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Even on a very small project it takes Diamond tipped tools to work Dirurite.
No, it does not. Ancient cultures the world over made use of diorite. The Code of Hammurabi is inscribed in a diorite pillar for instance...
 

Rio Sabinas

Old Geezer
Mister Emu,
I sure thought Diorite was some tougher stuff than that.
Even in Granite, the ruins of Puma Punku are an amazing engineering feat.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Mister Emu,
I sure thought Diorite was some tougher stuff than that.
It is a tough(hard) material from what I understand, but not impossible to work with.

Even in Granite, the ruins of Puma Punku are an amazing engineering feat.
Yes, it/they truly are.
 

Rockstar Matt

Astrophysicist
I know this is an older thread, but the ruins of Puma Punku that are made of Granite and Diorite are of great importance.

The nearest quarry is over 10 miles away and with no feasible means of transporting it, how did it happen? Each stone has a groove going down the length of the stone and it is exactly 1 cm deep and 1 cm wide and it never varies, not even by a 0.01mm. They have equidistant holes that are running down the length of the groove. A feat that cannot be replicated today, or at least not with that kind of precision. Granite Diorite is one of the strongest stones on earth and can only be cut with diamonds. So the tools have to be diamond-tipped, which isn't impossible for humans.

Now I believe this was in fact built by humans, but I do believe that we had help in design from the so-called "Ancient Aliens" who might have tried to point us in the right direction.

Now, before any of you try to dispute that the idea of Ancient Aliens are ludicrous, look back on your own religion(s) whatever they might be, and would your God(s) be so arrogant that they demanded to be worshipped and to build temples for them? Most likely, no. A real God wouldn't have the need to make Himself seem greater, because really, He is God. But, an Extra-Terrestial who came in from the "Heavens" might be the source of almost/all of our religions.

However, there were reports during WWII that are truly baffling. When Allied airplanes were looking for midway islands to land and refuel, they landed on many remote and unexplored islands. On these islands, the indigenous people saw these "Gods" come from the sky and began to worship them and to even make sacrifices shaped like a WWII-styled aircraft. Now, if this happened as recently as the 1940's and these people began to worship them as Gods, whose to say all of these "encounters" with "God" that most religious texts talk about, aren't actually encounter's with ET's. It's not anymore ludicrous than any of the stories described in the Koran, Old and New Testament (sorry if I misspelled anything, I mean no offense, I just simply don't know how to spell certain words :p), and the Holy Bible.

Maybe these stories are actually real, but not encounter's with "God" but instead ET's. It all adds up. Look at this photo: (You have to go to wikipedia and type "Ancient Astronauts" and scroll down the to picture of Jesus being Baptized.)

Off the top of your head, what does the thing in the sky with light coming down look like?

I'll let you decide.

Now please, debate.
 
Last edited:

gnomon

Well-Known Member
Where are all the blocks that do not show a great degree of precision?

Probably wound up in the same place modern humans put woodwork and stonework that do not show a great degree of precision. They get reworked or tossed out.

As far as the precision....did someone actually measure every groove on every stone at that site?

I mean heck, the dome of the Hagia Sophia was a technological feat for it's time. At least, the second time it was built.
 

Rockstar Matt

Astrophysicist
Where are all the blocks that do not show a great degree of precision?

Probably wound up in the same place modern humans put woodwork and stonework that do not show a great degree of precision. They get reworked or tossed out.

As far as the precision....did someone actually measure every groove on every stone at that site?

I mean heck, the dome of the Hagia Sophia was a technological feat for it's time. At least, the second time it was built.



There aren't any blocks that aren't so precise. They were designed so that they would fit together kind of like how modern day Lego's fit.

I don't know how this relates to what I said.

And for the precision, yes, scientists scanned the blocks with lasers. That is how they know this.

That may be, but the stones of Puma Punku are so precise, that it could not be replicated today, as I've already said.
 

Nepenthe

Tu Stultus Es
I know this is an older thread, but the ruins of Puma Punku that are made of Granite and Diorite are of great importance.

The nearest quarry is over 10 miles away and with no feasible means of transporting it, how did it happen?
Not to be pedantic but the nearest quarries are actually about 6.2 miles away (or 10 km which is probably what you were thinking.) :)

The most likely scenario is that Tiahuanacoan laborers retrieved the stone from a quarry near Lake Titicaca and laboriously transported them using inclined planes and cords- quite the impressive feat considering one stone weighs 130 tons. One quarry source is from the Copocabana region on the other side of Lake Titicaca and the andesite stones taken from there (one weighing 40 tons) were transported across 90 kilometers including a trip across Lake Titicaca. Quite an impressive feat but not one that requires extraterrestrial aid.

In 2002 archaeologist Alexei Vranich set out to replicate how the Tiahuanacons quarried and transported their materials across such a vast stretch with the technology available to them. He and his crew constructed a 12 ton reed totora, set out to find an adequate stone to transport and used levers, ropes, stone ramps and lubrication made from fish oils to haul the 9 ton stone to their totora. They also discovered that they could have transported up to 18 tons using the methods and the totora they had built. Yes, 130 tons is a helluva lot more, but Vranich's experiment shows how the technology and work force available to the Tiahuanacoans allowed them to accomplish such a monumental task. Here's Dr. Vranich's comprehensive report on building the reed boat: http://dralexeivranich.org/documents/Reed_Boats.pdf

Each stone has a groove going down the length of the stone and it is exactly 1 cm deep and 1 cm wide and it never varies, not even by a 0.01mm. They have equidistant holes that are running down the length of the groove. A feat that cannot be replicated today, or at least not with that kind of precision. Granite Diorite is one of the strongest stones on earth and can only be cut with diamonds. So the tools have to be diamond-tipped, which isn't impossible for humans.
Not quite. The grooves are impressively similar, but not for all of them- some are actually unfinished which of course means the grooves were not all uniform and this makes the claim of a consistent 1 cm. deep, 1 cm. pattern wide puzzling.

The ruins are diorite and andesite, but diorite isn't the impenetrable stone it has been portrayed as- it can be cut by substances other than diamond. Yes, it is tough stuff, but there are several examples of ancient cultures carving it with copper tools accessible at the time. There's no need to include diamond-tipped implements much less high-tech' assistance when copper and bronze tools can cut diorite. The Code of Hammurabi was inscribed on diorite and the mineral was used in art, sculpture, weaponry and architecture in ancient Egypt, the Incans, Mayans, Assyrians and Babylonians. Diorite balls were used by the Egyptians to cut rock- the statue of Khafre from the 4th Dynasty is a diorite gneiss composition and intricately carved. Diorite sculptures dates back as far as 4,000 BCE. In a similar vein some archaeologists have suggested that the ancients spread quartz powder on a hard surface then used copper tools to saw the material.

Anyway, copper saws could cut precise grooves and drill holes similar to what is displayed at Puma Punku. It is extremely time consuming and labor intensive but certainly within the capabilities of the culture at the time. There may be some mystery over the precise methods they used but there's no evidence anything other than available materials, clever engineers and a large work force were responsible for Puma Punku's amazing constructs.

Several Egyptian diorite quarries are examined at in this paper which gives an idea of how ancient cultures could and did quarry a wide range of stone sources: http://www.eeescience.utoledo.edu/F...cientEgyptianQuarries_IllustratedOverview.pdf

As for the claims that the structural accomplishments at Puma Punku are beyond the capabilities of modern technology, well, that's ridiculous. Contemporary architectural and materials technology makes the Puma Punku accomplishments astounding on their own terms, but a pale reflection of what we're capable today. Mystery mongerers tend to make this claim often but it's nonsense of course.

Now I believe this was in fact built by humans, but I do believe that we had help in design from the so-called "Ancient Aliens" who might have tried to point us in the right direction.
I certainly can't accuse you of this, but based on my experiences with ancient astronaut claimants I've always found their attitude not only ridiculous but condescending with a whiff of Eurocentrism behind them. These weren't stupid people, they were modern humans with the same brain capacity as us- they just had resources and knowledge that limited their technological aptitude in comparison to modern technology. What they accomplished with what they had access to was astonishing but within the realms of human capability and doesn't require any external aid. We built these structures with our know how, our blood and sweat and our perseverance, not aliens or time travelers or pixies. Every time I read or hear about ancient astronaut claims I get the extreme from "ancient peoples were too stupid to accomplish this" to "ancient peoples accomplished feats moderns are incapable of". Both stances are just plain ridiculous.
Now, before any of you try to dispute that the idea of Ancient Aliens are ludicrous...
<clipped Cargo Cult stuff>

Maybe these stories are actually real, but not encounter's with "God" but instead ET's. It all adds up. Look at this photo: (You have to go to wikipedia and type "Ancient Astronauts" and scroll down the to picture of Jesus being Baptized.)

Off the top of your head, what does the thing in the sky with light coming down look like?

I'll let you decide.
It's De Gelder's The Baptism of Christ. It looks like an illuminated sky with the holy spirit personified as a dove appearing during Jesus' baptism. Artists who portrayed Biblical scenes often used a luminous circle to convey divinity in their paintings and iconography; the dove was and is a common motif in Christian art for rebirth and the Holy Spirit. It has nothing to do with UFOs. The Baptism of Christ as an example of UFOs in art is also an odd choice- there are other paintings that portray objects that look far more E.T. like than this one. De Gelder clearly intended to paint the classic scene as recorded in Mark 1:10, Matt. 3:16, Luke 3:21, and John 1:32. where a dove flew from an illuminated sky to descend as the Holy Spirit to Jesus during his baptism.
BaptismofChrist-1.jpg

It's a dove in a halo of light. Not an alien spacecraft.
The Art of Imagining UFOs is a great article on the subject in the Italian edition of Skeptic magazine. I hope it clears up some misconceptions you have on ancient astronaut nonsense.
Now please, debate.
I can't argue that we know every aspect of how they constructed these amazing features- only an estimated 5% of the Tiahuanacon ruins have been examined by archaeologists! That's a drop in the bucket and a lot more work is necessary to get a clearer picture of their culture and accomplishments. But questions do not equal abject ignorance and ignorance does not necessitate a completely worthless hypothesis like ancient astronauts when more plausible scenarios offer the more parsimonious explanations.

Here's Dr. Vranich's documented experiment on moving the stone slab: Voyage to the American Stonehenge

And Dr. Vranich's extensive study on the Tiwanaku ruins: The Construction and Reconstruction of Ritual Space at Tiwanaku, Bolivia.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Not to be pedantic but the nearest quarries are actually about 6.2 miles away (or 10 km which is probably what you were thinking.) :)

The most likely scenario is that Tiahuanacoan laborers retrieved the stone from a quarry near Lake Titicaca and laboriously transported them using inclined planes and cords- quite the impressive feat considering one stone weighs 130 tons. One quarry source is from the Copocabana region on the other side of Lake Titicaca and the andesite stones taken from there (one weighing 40 tons) were transported across 90 kilometers including a trip across Lake Titicaca. Quite an impressive feat but not one that requires extraterrestrial aid.

In 2002 archaeologist Alexei Vranich set out to replicate how the Tiahuanacons quarried and transported their materials across such a vast stretch with the technology available to them. He and his crew constructed a 12 ton reed totora, set out to find an adequate stone to transport and used levers, ropes, stone ramps and lubrication made from fish oils to haul the 9 ton stone to their totora. They also discovered that they could have transported up to 18 tons using the methods and the totora they had built. Yes, 130 tons is a helluva lot more, but Vranich's experiment shows how the technology and work force available to the Tiahuanacoans allowed them to accomplish such a monumental task. Here's Dr. Vranich's comprehensive report on building the reed boat: http://dralexeivranich.org/documents/Reed_Boats.pdf


Not quite. The grooves are impressively similar, but not for all of them- some are actually unfinished which of course means the grooves were not all uniform and this makes the claim of a consistent 1 cm. deep, 1 cm. pattern wide puzzling.

The ruins are diorite and andesite, but diorite isn't the impenetrable stone it has been portrayed as- it can be cut by substances other than diamond. Yes, it is tough stuff, but there are several examples of ancient cultures carving it with copper tools accessible at the time. There's no need to include diamond-tipped implements much less high-tech' assistance when copper and bronze tools can cut diorite. The Code of Hammurabi was inscribed on diorite and the mineral was used in art, sculpture, weaponry and architecture in ancient Egypt, the Incans, Mayans, Assyrians and Babylonians. Diorite balls were used by the Egyptians to cut rock- the statue of Khafre from the 4th Dynasty is a diorite gneiss composition and intricately carved. Diorite sculptures dates back as far as 4,000 BCE. In a similar vein some archaeologists have suggested that the ancients spread quartz powder on a hard surface then used copper tools to saw the material.

Anyway, copper saws could cut precise grooves and drill holes similar to what is displayed at Puma Punku. It is extremely time consuming and labor intensive but certainly within the capabilities of the culture at the time. There may be some mystery over the precise methods they used but there's no evidence anything other than available materials, clever engineers and a large work force were responsible for Puma Punku's amazing constructs.

Several Egyptian diorite quarries are examined at in this paper which gives an idea of how ancient cultures could and did quarry a wide range of stone sources: http://www.eeescience.utoledo.edu/F...cientEgyptianQuarries_IllustratedOverview.pdf

As for the claims that the structural accomplishments at Puma Punku are beyond the capabilities of modern technology, well, that's ridiculous. Contemporary architectural and materials technology makes the Puma Punku accomplishments astounding on their own terms, but a pale reflection of what we're capable today. Mystery mongerers tend to make this claim often but it's nonsense of course.


I certainly can't accuse you of this, but based on my experiences with ancient astronaut claimants I've always found their attitude not only ridiculous but condescending with a whiff of Eurocentrism behind them. These weren't stupid people, they were modern humans with the same brain capacity as us- they just had resources and knowledge that limited their technological aptitude in comparison to modern technology. What they accomplished with what they had access to was astonishing but within the realms of human capability and doesn't require any external aid. We built these structures with our know how, our blood and sweat and our perseverance, not aliens or time travelers or pixies. Every time I read or hear about ancient astronaut claims I get the extreme from "ancient peoples were too stupid to accomplish this" to "ancient peoples accomplished feats moderns are incapable of". Both stances are just plain ridiculous.

<clipped Cargo Cult stuff>


It's De Gelder's The Baptism of Christ. It looks like an illuminated sky with the holy spirit personified as a dove appearing during Jesus' baptism. Artists who portrayed Biblical scenes often used a luminous circle to convey divinity in their paintings and iconography; the dove was and is a common motif in Christian art for rebirth and the Holy Spirit. It has nothing to do with UFOs. The Baptism of Christ as an example of UFOs in art is also an odd choice- there are other paintings that portray objects that look far more E.T. like than this one. De Gelder clearly intended to paint the classic scene as recorded in Mark 1:10, Matt. 3:16, Luke 3:21, and John 1:32. where a dove flew from an illuminated sky to descend as the Holy Spirit to Jesus during his baptism.
BaptismofChrist-1.jpg

It's a dove in a halo of light. Not an alien spacecraft.
The Art of Imagining UFOs is a great article on the subject in the Italian edition of Skeptic magazine. I hope it clears up some misconceptions you have on ancient astronaut nonsense.

I can't argue that we know every aspect of how they constructed these amazing features- only an estimated 5% of the Tiahuanacon ruins have been examined by archaeologists! That's a drop in the bucket and a lot more work is necessary to get a clearer picture of their culture and accomplishments. But questions do not equal abject ignorance and ignorance does not necessitate a completely worthless hypothesis like ancient astronauts when more plausible scenarios offer the more parsimonious explanations.

Here's Dr. Vranich's documented experiment on moving the stone slab: Voyage to the American Stonehenge

And Dr. Vranich's extensive study on the Tiwanaku ruins: The Construction and Reconstruction of Ritual Space at Tiwanaku, Bolivia.


excellent report

ancient man worked with stone day in and day out for generation after generation. No wonder they were better at it then then we are today with our modern tools.

the old addage " theres no such thing as cant" applys. If you want it, you can do it.

They had star's and they had rock and they had time. All ancient civilazations were excellent rock workers and they all had and worked with huge rocks.

UFO people love peru, there are no ties anywhere to UFO's and the incan culture.
 
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