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Rule #2: Discussion of Moderation

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
The problem is not that nothing has been done.

Well then maybe you should stop implying that nothing was done.

The actual problem is that I have heard crickets. It is the lack of communication,

If you report a post and it disappears after you report it, that should be communication enough.

if you report something and don't check back to see if its been taking care of, that's on you.

Not sure what it is you're expecting.

Although to be honest I don't believe your explanation. I think your I heard crickets remark was meant to imply that you reported something and nothing was done about it.

At this point I think you're just backpedaling because you were asked to substantiate your claim and you knew you wouldn't be able to.

and I am afraid that nothing you can do at this point would change what happened.

That is if anything actually happened.
:rolleyes:
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
I've a few examples.
Do we really want to go there?

Sure, drop me a pm.

It has happened. But I also recognize that there'll
be disagreement about whether a perceived attack
rose to the level of warranting moderation.
The goal shouldn't be establishing that it happened.
Just reducing the perception that it does happen.

Right now my goal is to make sure people try and use this thread for something productive rather than using it as an excuse to spread vindictive gossip.

Let's deal with the problems that actually exist first. .
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Sure, drop me a pm.



Right now my goal is to make sure people try and use this thread for something productive rather than using it as an excuse to spread vindictive gossip.

Let's deal with the problems that actually exist first. .
I completely agree.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Transparency as in it is more clear to the one breaking the rules and the bystanders what is considered breaking the rules.

Most definitely, I would agree.

The only thing I can think of that would be a inference is separating constructive feedback and criticism whether perceived from an individual person as such not intended or as a group. Once every so often the staff would have a thread specific for moderation considerations. However, that's a touch and go. It would be difficult but given we're all over the globe, I'd say discussion on rule clarification between involved parties would help relieved the rule-breakage problem at least to an extent. People know where they go wrong when they understand the fault; though I'd keep all mentions of faults private unless intentionally informing the whole group.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Well then maybe you should stop implying that nothing was done.

I have no need for implying anything. If by 'nothing was done', you mean that the post was kept intact, then I can outright say that either nothing was done or that it took long enough that I stopped caring.

If you report a post and it disappears after you report it, that should be communication enough.

if you report something and don't check back to see if its been taking care of, that's on you.

We agree.

Not sure what it is you're expecting.

Although to be honest I don't believe your explanation. I think your I heard crickets remark was meant to imply that you reported something and nothing was done about it.

At this point I think you're just backpedaling because you were asked to substantiate your claim and you knew you wouldn't be able to.

That is if anything actually happened.
:rolleyes:

You might as well have asked me what exactly I expected:

I expected someone to get back to me back then to tell me whether my reports were taken into consideration and why the posts remained intact. I expected communication rather than being left in the dark. That's what actually bothered me, much more than whatever was on the post I reported.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
I have no need for implying anything. If by 'nothing was done', you mean that the post was kept intact, then I can outright say that either nothing was done or that it took long enough that I stopped caring.

I see we're on your schedule now.

Could you give us a general time frame for how quickly you would like this volunteer staff to take care of your problems for free for you?

You might as well have asked me what exactly I expected:

I expected someone to get back to me back then to tell me whether my reports were taken into consideration and why the posts remained intact. I expected communication rather than being left in the dark. That's what actually bothered me, much more than whatever was on the post I reported.
I'm still waiting for examples. Sorry Koldo, but unless you're willing to make at least a little bit of effort to show me what you're talking about --- and especially considering the way you keep moving the goal posts --- I don't see how you can expect me to take any if this seriously.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
As a side note, regarding the subject of reporting posts, I'm reminded of an episode of "Happy Days" where Richie Cunningham was made squad leader in his ROTC group. He ended up putting his friends on report, which caused a rift and even led to the Fonz dissociating with him because he couldn't be seen with a stoolie.

Later on, Richie had a dream where he was on trial and went crazy on the stand, saying, "I'm putting you all on report. I'm going to put the whole world on report!"

I'm not sure if I have any point here, except that I really like the idea of putting the whole world on report. Trouble is, who would I report it to? Would the moderators here accept my report?
 

JustGeorge

Imperfect
Staff member
Premium Member
As a side note, regarding the subject of reporting posts, I'm reminded of an episode of "Happy Days" where Richie Cunningham was made squad leader in his ROTC group. He ended up putting his friends on report, which caused a rift and even led to the Fonz dissociating with him because he couldn't be seen with a stoolie.

Later on, Richie had a dream where he was on trial and went crazy on the stand, saying, "I'm putting you all on report. I'm going to put the whole world on report!"

I'm not sure if I have any point here, except that I really like the idea of putting the whole world on report. Trouble is, who would I report it to? Would the moderators here accept my report?

I will, but just because I'm a Happy Days fan.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I agree.
Controversy is interesting.
I'm a very peace and harmony loving person. That's why I don't shy away from controversy. There is no real harmony in making a topic taboo, it's just masking the problem and postponing it to the point when it can't be contained any longer and violently breaks out.
 

Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
I think there's another side to this, at least my experiences on this forum. Many people have very personal attachments to their religion, personal lives and stories, and things that's bothering them from sexual orientation to a computer printer that doesn't work (!).
Anyway. So, I'd assume people would naturally take what they write seriously and other humans replies (just as in person).
It is never good to take other peoples replies so seriously that it affects your life in a negative way if you are on a debate forum. People should put things in perspective.

However, I do agree with the privacy comment. Maybe have both site feedback private and open discussion. That and/or allow members to talk with moderator(s) in private message (for example, group messaging) so that clarification of infractions and rules can be explained with active listening on both sides.
Yes. And people should be able to post the contents of said conversation public so that others can see, especially if it involves abuse of power on the moderators side, if that ever happens. Then we can see the full context to see whether the tone of the response was warranted.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I see we're on your schedule now.

Could you give us a general time frame for how quickly you would like this volunteer staff to take care of your problems for free for you?

Just to clarify: I meant that I eventually stopped caring to the point I no longer kept checking whether the post remained intact. Not that something was done but that I didn't care anymore. How long am I supposed to wait before I come to the conclusion nothing will be done?

I'm still waiting for examples. Sorry Koldo, but unless you're willing to make at least a little bit of effort to show me what you're talking about --- and especially considering the way you keep moving the goal posts --- I don't see how you can expect me to take any if this seriously.

I am not going to bother looking up for an example if I don't see it as anything more than a waste of time to me. It has been easily over an year the last time I remember reporting someone. I have my ways of finding what post I reported, but it would take a massive ammount of time and for what purpose? Just to get you to tell me you don't consider what I reported to be trolling? Not actually addressing the main problem which is the lack of communication? Nah, not interested. Do you or do you not, always, get back to people when what they have reported is not considered an actual rule violation? This is the problem, those are the crickets I have mentioned in the first post.
 
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JustGeorge

Imperfect
Staff member
Premium Member
It is never good to take other peoples replies so seriously that it affects your life in a negative way if you are on a debate forum. People should put things in perspective.

I largely agree with that. However, when posting directly to someone, its good to remember you don't know that mental state or life situation of a person, and its best to avoid being intentionally toxic based on that. That one negative statement read on RF may be the only interaction that person had all day.

Of course, that's no one's responsibility. Still, it doesn't hurt to be nice. We're(as a species) all in this together.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Just to clarify: I meant that I eventually stopped caring to the point I no longer kept checking whether the post remained intact. Not that something was done but that I didn't care anymore.

So now you're saying you don't know if the post you reported was taken care of or not but you decided to come in here and claim that you knew that it wasn't.

To what purpose?

(This is aside from the fact that originally you were implying that the problem included multiple reports that you had made)

How long am I supposed to wait before I come to the conclusion nothing will be done?

We almost always get reports taken care of within a couple of days. And you're not supposed to come to any conclusions you're supposed to go look.

I am not going to bother looking up for an example if I don't see it as anything more than a waste of time to me.

Spreading rumors is a valid use of your time but bothering to validate those rumors isn't.

Got it.

It has been easily over an year the last time I remember reporting someone. I have my ways of finding what post I reported, but it would take a massive ammount of time and for what purpose?

I didn't ask you to find the post, I offered to do that for you if you tell me the name of the person you reported and give me a general time frame.

Just to get you to tell me you don't consider what I reported to be trolling?

How do you know what I'm going to tell you? You made an accusation and now you refusing to validate the accusation.

Why? Well obviously because you know you can't.

Not actually addressing the main problem which is the lack of communication?

No actually the accusation you made wasn't about lack of communication. the accusation was that you reported something that was trolling or a personal attack and nothing was done about it.

Now, that's you're being asked to demonstrate what you're talking about you're trying to change the subject and/or claim you meant something else.

Let's be real here shall we?

Nah, not interested.

Interested in spreading rumors about people but not interested in offering any evidence to support those rumors.

Again, got it.

do you not, always, get back to people when what they have reported is not considered an actual rule violation? This is the problem, those are the crickets I have mentioned in the first post.

And there's that back pedaling again.

In post #16 @sunrise said:

Sunrise said:
When I see something that to me is a clear rule violation and report it, sometimes I see the post is gone and at other times "crickets

Your response:
The crickets, as you call it, are the exact reason my rule of thumb is to never report any post.

Now obviously since @sun rise is using "crickets" in opposition of "sometimes I see the post is gone", the term is intended to refer to the idea that a post has been reported but is still there.

Your response, "The crickets, as you call it" is obviously an acknowledgment that you understand what the term is supposed to mean in this context and that you're using it in the same way.

So when, in your next post you say:
. . . : in a heated debate people may resort to personal attacks and trolling. I have reported those before just to hear the crickets, so I just don't bother anymore.

Anyone with eyes can see that what you're saying here is that you've reported personal attacks and trolling in the past and nothing was done about it.

(Emphasis in all of the above post is mine)

Edit: now @Koldo, as I mentioned in a post earlier this thread is for people who want to have a productive conversation about moderation, not for people who want to post vindictive and unfounded rumors against the staff.

Now if you want to discuss this further feel free to send me a conversation message but I don't want to see any more posts from you in this thread.

And I mean not one.
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I think there's another side to this, at least my experiences on this forum. Many people have very personal attachments to their religion, personal lives and stories, and things that's bothering them from sexual orientation to a computer printer that doesn't work (!). Anyway. So, I'd assume people would naturally take what they write seriously and other humans replies (just as in person). However, I do agree with the privacy comment. Maybe have both site feedback private and open discussion. That and/or allow members to talk with moderator(s) in private message (for example, group messaging) so that clarification of infractions and rules can be explained with active listening on both sides.


This is what Site Feedback is for: https://www.religiousforums.com/forums/site-feedback.344/

Every moderation message has a link to Site Feedback and an invitation to discuss the infraction.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
This is what Site Feedback is for: https://www.religiousforums.com/forums/site-feedback.344/

Every moderation message has a link to Site Feedback and an invitation to discuss the infraction.

I mentioned that there could be both-one public and the other private. In the transparency comment in the OP, having public feedback can be beneficial if it is not seen as insults rather than constructive criticism. Site feedback isn't public so that leads to problems in itself. It's hard to discuss what to address without breaking the rules.
 

Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
I largely agree with that. However, when posting directly to someone, its good to remember you don't know that mental state or life situation of a person, and its best to avoid being intentionally toxic based on that. That one negative statement read on RF may be the only interaction that person had all day.

Of course, that's no one's responsibility. Still, it doesn't hurt to be nice. We're(as a species) all in this together.

Yeah. I do understand that. Especially since I know of people who have social anxiety and this platform is the only interaction they have with people. My advice is that if people are being rude to you and you can't handle it, just block them.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Just reducing the perception that it does happen.

Not all perceptions are equally valid or worth the effort to reduce them. Since we are volunteer staff who use the forum like everyone else on top of doing staff work, we have to identify priorities.

Explaining every action or lack thereof to everyone who files a report is not a priority because it is both unfeasible and pointless--harmful, even, since it would violate confidentiality of moderation.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Not all perceptions are equally valid or worth the effort to reduce.
I understand.
But I think it's a worthy goal to strive to minimize dysfunctional
perceptions. It makes sense to seek ways to achieve this
without undue effort.
Since we are volunteer staff who use the forum like everyone else on top of doing staff work, we have to identify priorities.
Aye, prioritizing is essential.
Explaining every action or lack thereof to everyone who files a report is not a priority because it is both unfeasible and pointless--harmful, even, since it would violate confidentiality of moderation.
I don't propose going that far.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I understand.
But I think it's a worthy goal to strive to minimize dysfunctional
perceptions. It makes sense to seek ways to achieve this
without undue effort.

We do what we can within the boundaries of the rules, especially Rule 2. Some Site Feedback threads take a lot of effort to address due to the sheer length thereof, but we still try to address them when we believe doing so could be conducive to more understanding and clarity.

I don't propose going that far.

Good. I have seen that suggestion before, so I wouldn't be surprised to see it again. It couldn't hurt to explain again why it would be unfeasible and counterproductive.
 
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