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Russiagate really Hillarygate?

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
It pretty much ignores the Russia timeline and everything that is causing suspicions about Trump and his campaign.

Hilary didn't make up the Russia thing within 24 hrs of her defeat. How do I know this? She was calling him a Russian puppet in the debates. This was a narrative well before her crushing loss.

Furthermore, the FBI has been investigating the Russian meddling since the summer of 2016. The announcement from the President that Russia was hacking and doing other nefarious deeds came Oct 6th. This was all well before her loss.

The article focused on the Steele dossier. That did make an initial splash and it was considered damaging enough that President Obama and President-elect Trump were briefed on it.

But honestly, after it couldn't be verified, it's had very little impact on the narrative.

Trump's been driving that baby just fine himself. We have the Flynn fiasco, which could have been averted if Trump had merely listened to everyone telling him that Flynn was compromised.

We have Trump firing the director of the FBI over the Russia investigation, raising eyebrows everywhere.

We have Trump being chummy with the Russian ambassador in the Oval Office, unwittingly giving state secrets.

We have various members of Trump's
Campaign under investigation for possible Russian ties.

And we have Trump Jr, releasing a string of emails documenting a meeting to obtain damaging Clinton info from the Russian government.

Clinton was no friend of Trump's and I bet she is taking great pleasure watching this dumpster fire. No doubt she fanned the flames or contributed some fuel here and there.

But Trump himself is responsible for the majority of this devastating conflagration.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
In the interests of some balance.
Hillary is not important any more. I don't bother reading anything with her name in the title, assuming that it is just more of that revoltingest of false equivalency, "Hillary did it too!".

In other words, deflection from the real problem to some fake news. I wonder more about who translated it from the Russian.
Tom
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
The concluding paragraph of the article is, frankly, delusional:

"The Fusion-Steele matter is explosive because it suggests that Russia’s most damaging intervention in the 2016 campaign may have been its creation of the Steele Dossier, remarkably paid for by the Clinton campaign! If so, the Clinton campaign (not Trump) was the prime sponsor of Russia’s intervention in the 2016 election."

1. The claim that the Steele dossier was the most "damaging intervention" of the 2016 election.

While there were hints of the existence of such a dossier floating around by Oct 2016, news organizations didn't publish info on it, as it was unverified. It's existence wasn't confirmed until after the election (which trump hilariously denied). And It wasn't made publicly available until Jan 2017. Yup, definitely the most damaging intervention of the 2016 election. Not only does this statement ignore the actually damaging interventions, like the Russian-backed Wikileaks dumps or Comey's email surprise, the timeline doesn't even make sense.

2. That it was remarkably paid for by the Clinton campaign!
As the article itself noted, the dossier was begun by Republicans (Sept 2015). It was taken over by the Dems in June 2016. It was taken over (and Steele was paid by!) the FBI in Oct 2016. So yeah, not just Clinton money. Wiki for more info.

Also, as much as Rs are trying to make the narrative about "oppo research", that's not the problem. It is not remarkable that a campaign would hire someone to find dirt on their opponents. That is not the issue. The issue is knowingly going to another government and accepting their help to get you elected.

3. That this somehow makes the Clinton campaign the "prime sponsor" of Russia's intervention.

Ah, yes. Because the conclusions of or intelligence agencies mean absolutely nothing.
"We assess Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the US presidential election. Russia’s goals were to undermine public faith in the US democratic process, denigrate Secretary Clinton, and harm her electability and potential presidency. We further assess Putin and the Russian Government developed a clear preference for President-elect Trump. We have high confidence in these judgments." ICA

Russia was the prime sponsor of Russia's meddling in our election.

I wouldn't be surprised if Russia played both sides. However:
It is absurd to ignore all the evidence that points to Russia's interference favoring Trump and then come to the conclusion that Clinton was behind it.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Russia was the prime sponsor of Russia's meddling in our election.

I wouldn't be surprised if Russia played both sides. However:
It is absurd to ignore all the evidence that points to Russia's interference favoring Trump and then come to the conclusion that Clinton was behind it.
And none of Trump's supporters seem willing to ask the obvious questions.
Like why would Putin and Russia want Trump to be president? What benefits did they see as worth the cost?
Tom
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Hillary is not important any more. I don't bother reading anything with her name in the title, assuming that it is just more of that revoltingest of false equivalency, "Hillary did it too!".

In other words, deflection from the real problem to some fake news. I wonder more about who translated it from the Russian.
Tom
A great point.

Let's say the Republicans wildest dreams come true and Hilary colluded with the Russians.

How does that in any way make Trump's collusion acceptable?

And why would that be considered as important, or more important, than having the actual President guilty of collusion?

Hilary has no power. She gained nothing from any possible collusion, and more importantly, is not in a position to return favors to Russia.

Trump is.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Russia was the prime sponsor of Russia's meddling in our election.
Given Junior's tweets, I think Putin was more behind it than Trump. The act of gathering evidence against one candidate and working to give it to another undermines both candidates with one stone.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Given Junior's tweets, I think Putin was more behind it than Trump. The act of gathering evidence against one candidate and working to give it to another undermines both candidates with one stone.
Exactly. That's one of the problems with collusion: you are simultaneoulsy creating blackmail material on yourself while you help a foreign government smear your opponent.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
I think the Steele Dossier may be accurate. It did predict that in June of last year Trump and Co were meeting with Kremlin associates. Which everyone just learned of recently. Apparently the adoption meeting lasted a couple minutes and didn't provide anything, so everyone left.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I think the Steele Dossier may be accurate. It did predict that in June of last year Trump and Co were meeting with Kremlin associates. Which everyone just learned of recently. Apparently the adoption meeting lasted a couple minutes and didn't provide anything, so everyone left.
With Junior seeming oblivious to the political games having failed to notice that one being played on him, it makes me wonder what else happened that Trump and his Court failed to realize would later come back to bite them because this is politics, not business. What are they going to do? Sue Putin?
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
And none of Trump's supporters seem willing to ask the obvious questions.
Like why would Putin and Russia want Trump to be president? What benefits did they see as worth the cost?
Tom
They probably just wanted someone completely incompetent, to immobilize the American government at home and to make it a joke abroad.

Obviously, Clinton didn't fit that bill.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
Ah, as predicted it doesn't look like republicans are going to punish Russia for what they did. TruePatriots™
 
Putin wanted Donald Trump because he wanted a weak u.s. President. Either Putin knew trump would be a weak President or he knew he could make him a weak President with controversy or maybe both. Either way America is unfortunately stuck with a President who can't even get legislation passed with his own party in charge. What will he do if democrats retake the house or Senate or both in 2018. As far as Hillary is concerned the only mistake she made in the election was keeping Bernie Sanders from the Democratic nomination.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
I think it is a strawman and distraction. It doesn't really matter who made Trump's relationship with Russia public. If it exists, it should be investigated and if people in his campaign lied or broke the law they should be prosecuted and held accountable. Simple as that. Obviously, since this is a federal investigation, it is going to take years before we get to the bottom of it. And, Trump's campaign staff not being transparent; hiding meetings, lying about who was at meetings, lying about not having connections with Russia in any way, suspicious actions, and very suspicious language coming out of the White House (refusing to say that Russia attempted to help Trump win, refusing to speak ill of Putin, etc.) makes an investigation absolutely necessary.

Honestly, if Trump had just ignored the investigation and refused to tweet about it, it probably would be old news by now. But, he keeps on adding to the fire with constant claims of "fake news", a "witch hunt", etc. that could only come from a guilty (or very politically ignorant) man.

Trump should ignore the media and focus on his agenda. But, he doesn't seem to have it in him to rise above any of this.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
And none of Trump's supporters seem willing to ask the obvious questions.
Like why would Putin and Russia want Trump to be president? What benefits did they see as worth the cost?
Tom
The answer is extremely obvious. Putin has a personal vendetta against Clinton for well-known reasons. Hillary went after Putin and continues to be very hard on him for his human rights abuses and criminal activities. Trump, not so much. Trump seems to really respect Putin, he refuses to speak ill of Russia, and he seems to be trying to remove sanctions.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Trump should ignore the media and focus on his agenda. But, he doesn't seem to have it in him to rise above any of this.
That may be what helps pad the damage over the next 3 1/2 years. Trump, rather than acting like a politician, or even business leader, he's acting like a teenager who is drawn to social media like a bug to a light. When the Right has even complained he's addicted to cable and social media, it's a sign he won't be very effective, and so far he really hasn't, and he hasn't shown signs of changes.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
We welcome all investigations to prove if the allegations are phony or not. Hillary is 1-0. Will TrumpCo be found innocent by Bob? Maybe Trump will testify before congress for 10+ hours?

Definitely looking like TrumpCo enlisted the help of the axis of evil to hack into the American democracy. Traitorous.
Hillary was not found to be innocent, she was given a pass. To be found innocent one must be charged with a crime and unfortunately the results of the FBI's investigation was never turned over to a grand jury to make that determination.
 
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