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Russian Disinformation

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You don't seem to understand.

The tech companies provide the platforms and the algoritms for the newsfeeds (facebook, tiktok, twitter, instagram, youtube, etc etc). They don't provide the actual content of the feeds. Other actors, like Russian troll farms and companies like Cambridge Analytica, are plugging into those systems by bringing the "fake news" into circulation. They do this by spreading fake stories and abusing the ad system to target specific psychological profiles.

It comes straight out of the playbook of psychological warfare.

So, who are the ones being duped by the Russians here? The end users or the American companies providing the platforms? Who set up this system in the first place?
What I've noticed over the past 25+ years as an internet user is that there are lot of companies out there promoting the illusion of safety. Every time someone gets banned or de-platformed, it plants a seed in people's minds that "someone is out there watching out for us" and that "we are safe." Otherwise, they shouldn't do it. If people perceived them as utilities instead of publishers, then people might be more wary.


Not really. The algoritms make it a closed field, by pushing users deeper and deeper into their own information bubble.
It goes rather far you know...

Google for example even goes so far as basing results and ads on what you write about in mails on gmail. We did the test once...
Brand new account on a brand new pc with no search or browsing history. Started by writing an email to a friend about supposedly having to go to a store to buy cat food and how fun it is to play with my cats.

Opened random website and sure enough....... filled with ads about cat food, cat toys, etc.
Did a search on "fun things to do with my pet" (so no mention of cats) and sure enough, first couple links all exclusively about cats.

So, who is doing this? Who writes these algorithms? Google or the Russians? If the Russians or other nefarious factions are using American companies and their algorithms to dupe Americans and influence the elections, whose fault is that? Why would a company like Google put our nation at such risk? And why should the government and the people of America allow it?

It's not about it being a monopoly. It's about it simply being how the entire internet works today.

So, is it just a math competition? Is it "techie vs. techie"? That's what it seems like. The Russians always made the best chess players and mathematicians, so maybe they just have a certain knack for algorithms that somehow outmatches and outclasses the big shots of Silicon Valley.

Google, Microsoft, Apple, Facebook - maybe these guys just aren't all they're cracked up to be. Maybe they got too full of themselves and arrogant to the point that they're getting owned by the Russians, the Chinese, and even the Iranians. Maybe they just don't have what it takes to compete in open competition.

No. This is an example of politicians not being tech savy enough to understand the unethicalness of such algoritms.
Another problem here is how these tech platforms exploded in size and reach in very short time. So it requires quite some balls to go against them now, as the economic repercussions would be quite massive. Imagine voting a law which destroys Google's and Meta's very business models over night.....

As a software engineer myself, my stance has always been "if you wonder if a certain practice in cyberspace is okay, then ask yourself if the equivalent of it in the real world would be okay - the answer should be the same".

Remember my gmail example? Now imagine the post-man who brings you your physical correspondence, opening all your letters, reading them to see what you write about and then decide based on that what articles are printed on the newspaper you get, which ad folders to give you, etc.
You wouldn't think that's okay, would you?

Yet Google does exactly that and has been doing exactly that for years and years with not only your digital mail, but with literally all media you consume on the internet. And the same goes for facebook and the others.

I think when the WWW first came into existence, most of the politicians probably didn't know that much about it. I don't think they knew how to regulate it, as a new technology, and some of the early companies might have taken advantage of that.

So, Big Tech benefited from the politicians not being tech savvy enough, but they apparently didn't realize or didn't count on people from other countries gaining enough tech savvy to compete with them. And since it crosses international boundaries and descends into the realm of a virtual criminal underground where there is no oversight, no government, no law, then we can see where there's a bit of a problem here.

Is that the situation we're dealing with here?

Even competition between criminal gangs is still within the parameters of capitalist competition in an open marketplace. Lawless or not, to try to deal with it on that basis would, as you say, lead to massive repercussions because it's gotten too big.

What some of this looks like is that, possibly, the arrogance and overconfidence of Big Tech has come back to bite them in the backside. Some of this seems like they're just upset and jealous because they're losing at their own game. Sounds like an ego problem. "Pride goeth before a fall."



These algoritms are everywhere. If you do a google search, it's active. Even on certain news websites, the articles you'll see will be different then those you'll see with another login or on another computer, as it formats the homepage based on your google profile, facebook profiles, cookies on your device, etc.

The "we believe you will like this" concept is very much integrated in most media you can think of online.
Even on things like netflix. There are shows on there that I will simply never see unless I look for them directly, simply because of my viewing history.

Yes, I've noticed this. I notice it with Google and also when I open up a new tab in my browser and see the various links and newsfeeds. I see plenty of ads and sponsored content. Sometimes, it's obvious clickbait, but it's mostly just minor annoyances. The real world equivalent might be going to a public marketplace where various sellers are yelling out and hawking their wares. It can be noisy and obnoxious, but still legal.

However, I've learned to ignore and tune out a lot of the "junk" one might find when clicking on a page.

It's funny you mention Netflix. I have Spotify, and I sometimes chuckle when I see some of the selections they come up with in the personalized playlists they create based on my listening history. Sometimes they throw in songs I despised when they came out and were endlessly overplayed on the radio. My impression is that it seems to be formulated based on searching a few keywords, not on any kind of deep analysis. It all seems so superficial.

I'm not saying it is impossible to be well-informed and avoid the fake news and / or be able to distinguish one from the other.
But I am saying that one has to be very aware and making active effort to do so. The vast majority of people don't.
And that's how you end up with millions of Americans falling for the Q nonsense and alike.

And that's how guys like Putin and Xi interfere with elections and semi successfully destroy our democracies from within, by using our own tech against us.

Well, again, I think it's much more complex than that. I recall similar arguments being made back when TV and movies were becoming more permissive and pushing the boundaries, particularly in the increase in scenes depicting sex and violence. Similar complaints were made about rock music. Tipper Gore (the wife of the man who invented the internet) went on a big crusade about how evil rock music was. People said it would ruin the children and undermine societal and family values.

While the history of the First Amendment in the U.S. has had its ups and downs, in more recent times, I've noted that most Americans tend to support erring on the side of free speech, even despite whatever risks there might be. Of course, it will always be an ongoing issue, and there's always the risk that our adversaries or potential adversaries could find ways to game our own system against us. Not just our tech, but also our system of laws and government.

As for those millions of Americans falling for the Q nonsense and the like, I can say that I've known a few among those millions of whom you speak. I've known people like that all my life, and they do abound. Maybe they're getting duped by an algorithm, but I know that many had deep-seated views even before the advent of the internet. Of course, I guess the people who write these algorithms must already know this.

In the real world, back in the old days of "realpolitik," what you're describing here would be known as "foreign agitation," and that's something that even George Washington warned against. It's the reason we wanted to eschew permanent alliances and foreign entanglements.

The technology may be new, but in essence, we're dealing with a political tactic which is very old. That's why a vigilant populace is an essential component of a robust and healthy democracy. I think what's happened is that too many people have grown complacent and take too much for granted. As a population, I don't think enough Americans are really vigilant anymore. They're not taking enough care. From the political leadership on down, there seems to be a sense of reckless myopia which other countries have obviously picked up on and have found a weakness.


Again with the same misunderstanding.

Google provides the platform of youtube. It doesn't provide the video's.
Facebook provides the platform for information exchange. It doesn't provide the information.
Google and facebook provides the platform for targetted ads. They don't provide the ads themselves.

The videos, the articles, the information, the ads.... all those things are provide by other people.
You, me, other users - and among them Russian troll farms.

Well, they have been known to ban people from their platforms. That issue has also gained some deal of attention, highlighted by Twitter banning Donald Trump which triggered Elon Musk's buyout of that platform. Twitter ostensibly did it because they thought it was the right thing to do, to protect the public from misinformation. YouTube has banned videos for much the same reason. The law supports their right to do this, as private business owners controlling what takes place on their own property. But by making a point of "protecting the public" like that, it's created the illusion of safety in the public's mind.

That seems to be a central point here, in that there's this vast number of naive, gullible people who fall prey to those who have learned the secrets of Big Tech and have figured out how to game the system which was set up by Big Tech.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
So, who are the ones being duped by the Russians here?

Social media consumers who end up in that information bubble through the algoritms.

So, who is doing this? Who writes these algorithms? Google or the Russians?

The tech companies write the algoritms.

If the Russians or other nefarious factions are using American companies and their algorithms to dupe Americans and influence the elections, whose fault is that?

Tech companies.

Why would a company like Google put our nation at such risk?

Money

And why should the government and the people of America allow it?

Money, ignorance, tech illiteracy

So, is it just a math competition? Is it "techie vs. techie"? That's what it seems like. The Russians always made the best chess players and mathematicians, so maybe they just have a certain knack for algorithms that somehow outmatches and outclasses the big shots of Silicon Valley.

Not really. These algoritms were designed with the best intentions, to serve people with their interests. To make using the internet easy. It just got terribly out of hand and this opened it up for abuse. And now we are at a point where these tech companies are faced with the choice: ignore the abuse or destroy their own business model.

Ad revenue is the bread and butter of these companies. The model of targeted ads / newsfeeds etc based on user data is what attracts partners. They'ld have to destroy this model to close the loophole. This would effectively drain their income. In short: they are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Google, Microsoft, Apple, Facebook - maybe these guys just aren't all they're cracked up to be. Maybe they got too full of themselves and arrogant to the point that they're getting owned by the Russians, the Chinese, and even the Iranians. Maybe they just don't have what it takes to compete in open competition.

Msft and apple are not the issue. Their business model doesn't depend on ad revenue and "selling" user data. They make their money selling software and hardware. They can perfectly do without these systems. Google, facebook and alike, can not. Why do you think it is that these companies' services and software are "free" to use? It's because their money comes from elsewhere.

I think when the WWW first came into existence, most of the politicians probably didn't know that much about it. I don't think they knew how to regulate it, as a new technology, and some of the early companies might have taken advantage of that.

The early internet didn't have this problem.

So, Big Tech benefited from the politicians not being tech savvy enough, but they apparently didn't realize or didn't count on people from other countries gaining enough tech savvy to compete with them. And since it crosses international boundaries and descends into the realm of a virtual criminal underground where there is no oversight, no government, no law, then we can see where there's a bit of a problem here.

Is that the situation we're dealing with here?

Even competition between criminal gangs is still within the parameters of capitalist competition in an open marketplace. Lawless or not, to try to deal with it on that basis would, as you say, lead to massive repercussions because it's gotten too big.

What some of this looks like is that, possibly, the arrogance and overconfidence of Big Tech has come back to bite them in the backside. Some of this seems like they're just upset and jealous because they're losing at their own game. Sounds like an ego problem. "Pride goeth before a fall."

Yeah, they are crying all the way to the bank...


Yes, I've noticed this. I notice it with Google and also when I open up a new tab in my browser and see the various links and newsfeeds. I see plenty of ads and sponsored content. Sometimes, it's obvious clickbait, but it's mostly just minor annoyances. The real world equivalent might be going to a public marketplace where various sellers are yelling out and hawking their wares.

Actually, the real world equivalent would be going to a market place where the various sellers have access to a gigantic database on people's lives and after doing a search on your social security number, knowing what your hobbies are, what car you drive, who your wife is, how many kids you have, what their hobbies are, what shows you like, what youtube channels you subscribe to, what food you like, etc etc etc etc and then adjust what they yell at you to that information to raise their chances of getting your attention....

It can be noisy and obnoxious, but still legal.

I disagree with that. I don't think it is legal. There is a thing like privacy. The problem is that these laws are outdated and the coverage thereof in cyberspace is very much a grey area. To the point of stupid "work arounds" a la "your data is stored on a server in the djabouti, where your government doesn't have jurisdiction"

So following the law to the "letter", it's not illegal. However, if we would consider the spirit of the laws, then I'ld say it's very much illegal.
Your postman can't read your mail to decide what ad pamflet to put in your mailbox, so why should google be allowed to scan your gmail?
The thing is that law covers written letters and the ridiculously complex EULA of gmail that you signed and didn't read because it's a 1000 pages of lawyer talk, has small footnotes that says you give them permission to do it.

Well, again, I think it's much more complex than that.

It is complex but at the same time very simple.
You have netflix? Go watch the docu "The Social Dilemma".
And realize it's just the tip of the iceberg as it focusses only on one particular aspect of this whole mess.

I recall similar arguments being made back when TV and movies were becoming more permissive and pushing the boundaries, particularly in the increase in scenes depicting sex and violence. Similar complaints were made about rock music. Tipper Gore (the wife of the man who invented the internet) went on a big crusade about how evil rock music was. People said it would ruin the children and undermine societal and family values.

I remember that too. I can tell you that this is not comparable at all.
You'll realize just how much it is not comparable after watching that documentary.

The technology may be new, but in essence, we're dealing with a political tactic which is very old.

The difference is that it's never been as easy as it is today.
Everyone has their own personal propaganda machine in its pocket. And it's a machine packed with tools and utilities that are designed from the ground up to abuse your human psychological weaknesses. This is far beyond anything done before. This is unprecedented, on a scale that was never possible, with an ease that was never before possible. And the advent of AI is just going to make this all even worse then it already is.

That's why a vigilant populace is an essential component of a robust and healthy democracy.

Absolutely. But we don't have that.

Well, they have been known to ban people from their platforms.

Sure. But this is just a bandaid on a near fatal wound.
Consider youtube for example. In 2022, 500 hours of video were uploaded to the platform per minute.
How on earth can a company moderate that? Even if they hire half a million workers to do just that, there's no way.
And I'm not just talking about censoring hate speech or violence... I'm also talking about fact checking to stop the spread of "fake news".

That issue has also gained some deal of attention, highlighted by Twitter banning Donald Trump which triggered Elon Musk's buyout of that platform. Twitter ostensibly did it because they thought it was the right thing to do, to protect the public from misinformation. YouTube has banned videos for much the same reason.

Sure, but mostly only for the higher profile users.
Go to youtube and search for "flat earth documentary". Go see how many hours upon hours of video there is of people claiming and arguing the earth is flat, that the moon landing was fake, etc etc. And that just one weirdo topic.

BTW: spread of fake news on twitter exploded exponentially ever since Elon took over and closed down all those departments that kept themselves busy with exactly that.

The law supports their right to do this, as private business owners controlling what takes place on their own property. But by making a point of "protecting the public" like that, it's created the illusion of safety in the public's mind.

That seems to be a central point here, in that there's this vast number of naive, gullible people who fall prey to those who have learned the secrets of Big Tech and have figured out how to game the system which was set up by Big Tech.
Sure.

And regardless of this abuse, from day one I said that what they were doing was borderline illegal and unethical.
The very business model are evil and unethical. Regardless of the abuse.
They collect user data, build giant psychological profiles of their users and then sell that data to third parties. It's a massive violation of privacy.

These services are "free" only because you "pay" with the currency of your own life.

I'm proud to say that to this day, I have no "social media" accounts on any of these platforms and I avoid them like the plague.
I constantly advice everybody to do the same and if they already have them, to -if possible- delete them all and stay away.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Social media consumers who end up in that information bubble through the algoritms.



The tech companies write the algoritms.



Tech companies.



Money



Money, ignorance, tech illiteracy

Ah, so now the truth finally comes out!

Based on what you're saying here, it would seem that it's actually the tech companies being duped, lured and blinded by excessive profits.

This just confirms the point that it's the blind greed of capitalism which is the greater threat to democracy than anything else.

This relates to the main complaint I've had about Democrats for more than 30 years. They're sellouts who compromise their principles for profit. If that's what they want to do, then so be it, but at least they should own up to it and admit it.

The fact that they're trying to scapegoat and shift the blame to others while claiming to be innocent/unknowing is what's truly outrageous. They're the ones who are the weakest link here.

Not really. These algoritms were designed with the best intentions, to serve people with their interests. To make using the internet easy. It just got terribly out of hand and this opened it up for abuse. And now we are at a point where these tech companies are faced with the choice: ignore the abuse or destroy their own business model.

Ad revenue is the bread and butter of these companies. The model of targeted ads / newsfeeds etc based on user data is what attracts partners. They'ld have to destroy this model to close the loophole. This would effectively drain their income. In short: they are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

You make it sound like someone addicted to heroin. In any case, if there's a risk to our nation, then our focus should be on shoring up these kinds of weak links which compromise national security. Complaining about the Russians, Fox News, or the gullibility of the electorate doesn't do a bit of good, does it? You have to attack the problem at its source.

Msft and apple are not the issue. Their business model doesn't depend on ad revenue and "selling" user data. They make their money selling software and hardware. They can perfectly do without these systems. Google, facebook and alike, can not. Why do you think it is that these companies' services and software are "free" to use? It's because their money comes from elsewhere.

Microsoft still has Bing and MSN, and whenever I open a new tab in my Edge browser, that's where I see a whole slew of links to news stories and other articles clearly reflecting the use of these algorithms we're talking about. It's their operating system, their software. If there are weaknesses in their system which can be exploited by hostile parties, then it's on them to fix those weaknesses.

Another thing that I've experienced when dealing with software companies, technical support, etc. is that I can sense a certain palpable arrogance coming from these companies, as if they believe their product is flawless and perfect - and the only reason for any problems is because of stupid end users who don't know what they're doing.

So, when they do end up getting hacked by someone, they end up looking like even bigger fools.

I remember that guy who was selling identity theft protection, and he'd go around broadcasting his Social Security number daring people to steal his identity. It turns out there were some takers who were able to do so successfully.


The early internet didn't have this problem.

Perhaps not, although I do recall those who could read the handwriting on the wall and could anticipate the potential. Some clearly threw caution to the four winds and made a lot of bank on it to the point where they now (as you pointed out above) have a business model they can not abandon without destroying their companies.

Yeah, they are crying all the way to the bank...

To paraphrase an old saying: Never listen to a rich person's tears.

Actually, the real world equivalent would be going to a market place where the various sellers have access to a gigantic database on people's lives and after doing a search on your social security number, knowing what your hobbies are, what car you drive, who your wife is, how many kids you have, what their hobbies are, what shows you like, what youtube channels you subscribe to, what food you like, etc etc etc etc and then adjust what they yell at you to that information to raise their chances of getting your attention....

Yes, I can see that. Of course, it does remind me of a common trope in Americana where people lament about how cold and impersonal big business has become. People used to go to the local store or bank where people knew their names, what car they drove, their hobbies, their wives/kids. Of course, the downside is that they might also know some juicy gossip about you, as you know how small towns can be. But nowadays, people are mostly strangers to each other.

A lot of people have had similar concerns about government agencies having this kind of information as well. Privacy is an important concern and viewed by many as a fundamental human right. The tools of "Big Brother" certainly exist and can be used (and have been used) for malicious purposes. This is part of the reason why I don't put much stock in the illusions of "freedom" or "democracy." There are too many clinkers in the system to get me to believe that it's all on the up-and-up. I recognized this quite early in life, even before the advent of the internet.

I disagree with that. I don't think it is legal. There is a thing like privacy. The problem is that these laws are outdated and the coverage thereof in cyberspace is very much a grey area. To the point of stupid "work arounds" a la "your data is stored on a server in the djabouti, where your government doesn't have jurisdiction"

So following the law to the "letter", it's not illegal. However, if we would consider the spirit of the laws, then I'ld say it's very much illegal.
Your postman can't read your mail to decide what ad pamflet to put in your mailbox, so why should google be allowed to scan your gmail?
The thing is that law covers written letters and the ridiculously complex EULA of gmail that you signed and didn't read because it's a 1000 pages of lawyer talk, has small footnotes that says you give them permission to do it.

Yes, that may be one area which can be shored up, at least as far as fixing some of the laws regulating this activity. But that requires governmental action, which then becomes political, but politicians have a certain love for capitalism (and money) that somehow ideologically prevents them from supporting anything which might be deemed government interference in the free market.

So, again, it comes back to this love of money and profits.


It is complex but at the same time very simple.
You have netflix? Go watch the docu "The Social Dilemma".
And realize it's just the tip of the iceberg as it focusses only on one particular aspect of this whole mess.

I'm getting a sense of it. I don't have Netflix at present, but I'll keep an eye out for it if it shows up on other channels.

I do understand politics and history, and I'm familiar with propaganda techniques and various types of persuasive speech and how people can be manipulated through language. But there's also a historical background, and it also pays to take a good look at various socioeconomic indicators and how people are actually living.

One phrase I've noticed popping up lately, usually directed at people who appear to spend too much time arguing on the internet and not enough time in the real world, is "Touch grass." It apparently means that people should step away from their screens and do more real-world social activity. I think that's good advice in general.

I recognize that this is a technology which will require some adjustments at the societal and state level.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I remember that too. I can tell you that this is not comparable at all.
You'll realize just how much it is not comparable after watching that documentary.

If you're saying the technology makes it all the more dangerous, then I agree, but ultimately it comes down to the same thing.

In a way, I think that the Powers That Be in this country actually wanted a public that was mostly ignorant, vacuous, easily-led, hooked on consumerism, fads, fashions, pop culture. Not only is it lucrative, but it keeps the masses occupied and under positive control. The politicians and corporate bigwigs have profited quite nicely from having a country of suckers under their influence.

So, basically, our political and business leadership wanted a country of zombies to control, and so, that's what they got. It worked fine for a while, but now, someone else is trying to hack into their system, which will then mislead the zombies into a different direction.

So, now, they're all lamenting how there are so many zombies out there - fools and suckers who can't seem to think for themselves and end up being duped.

This is one of the reasons why having a misinformed populace of zombies is a bad thing for democracy. Big Tech has profited quite nicely from all these suckers and zombies, but it somehow never really occurred to them that there could be long-term consequences? They didn't know this could happen? You said they employ psychologists when they formulate these algorithms. Have they ever considered employing sociologists or political scientists to give them some insight along the same lines?



The difference is that it's never been as easy as it is today.
Everyone has their own personal propaganda machine in its pocket. And it's a machine packed with tools and utilities that are designed from the ground up to abuse your human psychological weaknesses. This is far beyond anything done before. This is unprecedented, on a scale that was never possible, with an ease that was never before possible. And the advent of AI is just going to make this all even worse then it already is.

I remember reading that the first few generations affected by the industrial revolution were somewhat bewildered and perplexed at first. They really didn't know what they were facing or what they were dealing with at the time, since it was all brand new and like nothing they had ever seen before. It wasn't until much later that society and laws could catch up with it and regulate it and give consideration to worker and consumer rights, as well as environmental considerations. It also led to new weapons technologies which also presented a serious problems for the nations of the world, up to and including the development of nuclear weapons.

We're still having to deal with those issues, yet now, we seem to be in a period comparable to the same level of bewilderment when it comes to society reacting to the internet, AI, and various other technologies which have revolutionized many aspects of society. I recognize that this is all new territory and uncharted ground - which is why believe we should tread carefully in how we do things (which seems to be an unpopular approach these days).

This is also part of the reason why I tend towards socialism. For the same reason nuclear weapons should only be held and secured by state authority, I think anything that has that level of power to do damage should come under a similar level of authority. Ultimately, that may be the only way to do it.

Absolutely. But we don't have that.

True. How do you think that happened?

Sure. But this is just a bandaid on a near fatal wound.
Consider youtube for example. In 2022, 500 hours of video were uploaded to the platform per minute.
How on earth can a company moderate that? Even if they hire half a million workers to do just that, there's no way.
And I'm not just talking about censoring hate speech or violence... I'm also talking about fact checking to stop the spread of "fake news".

Well, it sounds like a tough situation, I would concede. I guess it's a matter of "tech vs. tech." Just as with war technology. As offensive weapons get better, then the technology for defensive structures also has to get better. Indeed, the whole strategy has to change. Maybe some companies' business models might have to be altered.

Sure, but mostly only for the higher profile users.
Go to youtube and search for "flat earth documentary". Go see how many hours upon hours of video there is of people claiming and arguing the earth is flat, that the moon landing was fake, etc etc. And that just one weirdo topic.

BTW: spread of fake news on twitter exploded exponentially ever since Elon took over and closed down all those departments that kept themselves busy with exactly that.

Even without YouTube or other platforms on social media, I'm sure I could probably find any number of regular websites dedicated to flat earthers or moon landing hoaxers. But if stuff like that starts showing up at random on different sites, it doesn't mean I'm going to pay attention to it or believe it. I think for myself.

Sure.

And regardless of this abuse, from day one I said that what they were doing was borderline illegal and unethical.
The very business model are evil and unethical. Regardless of the abuse.
They collect user data, build giant psychological profiles of their users and then sell that data to third parties. It's a massive violation of privacy.

These services are "free" only because you "pay" with the currency of your own life.

I'm proud to say that to this day, I have no "social media" accounts on any of these platforms and I avoid them like the plague.
I constantly advice everybody to do the same and if they already have them, to -if possible- delete them all and stay away.

I think what you illustrate here are the consequences of a certain myopia I've noticed over the past decades.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Ah, so now the truth finally comes out!

Based on what you're saying here, it would seem that it's actually the tech companies being duped, lured and blinded by excessive profits.

This just confirms the point that it's the blind greed of capitalism which is the greater threat to democracy than anything else.

This relates to the main complaint I've had about Democrats for more than 30 years. They're sellouts who compromise their principles for profit. If that's what they want to do, then so be it, but at least they should own up to it and admit it.

The fact that they're trying to scapegoat and shift the blame to others while claiming to be innocent/unknowing is what's truly outrageous. They're the ones who are the weakest link here.

No, this is not an accurate representation of the situation at all. And if you would have read the post instead of replying as you read, you might have realized this.
When these companies started out, their goal was not to manipulate or provide a platform for manipulation. Their goal was to make the internet easier to use. But off course they also need to make money and they build their business model around selling advertisement space. Nothing particularly wrong with that.
They build algorithms so that they could provide users with relevant newsfeeds and ads based on the individual user's interest. By itself, that also is a pretty innocent idea.

Years later, well after their business models were well established and at the heart of their operation, the abuse started occurring.
And now they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Moderating it is near impossible simply due to the sheer volume.
They ended up in a situation where the only real effective way to stop the abuse, is to destroy the business model, which would effectively destroy their business and livelihood.

This is the issue.
To try and frame this as them choosing "mega-profit + abuse" over "modest profit without abuse" is simply not a correct representation of the situation.


You make it sound like someone addicted to heroin. In any case, if there's a risk to our nation, then our focus should be on shoring up these kinds of weak links which compromise national security. Complaining about the Russians, Fox News, or the gullibility of the electorate doesn't do a bit of good, does it? You have to attack the problem at its source.

Not sure what you mean with the heroin comment, but in any case... attacking the problem at its source would effectively translate into pretty much shutting social media down. Or at least completely turn it on its head, which would result in the users actually having to pay to access it. It would likely also mean the end of the "youtuber" and "the influencer" because those people literally make their money by piggybacking on the algoritms and ads. But I'ld be fine with that though :D

Microsoft still has Bing and MSN, and whenever I open a new tab in my Edge browser, that's where I see a whole slew of links to news stories and other articles clearly reflecting the use of these algorithms we're talking about. It's their operating system, their software. If there are weaknesses in their system which can be exploited by hostile parties, then it's on them to fix those weaknesses.

Sure. Apple also similar things.
Here's the thing though.... In the case of msft, it barely accounts for 2% of their revenue. They could shut it down and barely feel a dent.
Nore are they the real problem either. Their share in this industry is so small, it doesn't really have an impact.

The point is though: if tomorrow laws are voted that outlaw such practices, they won't be feeling it. Google, Meta, etc on the other hand....

Another thing that I've experienced when dealing with software companies, technical support, etc. is that I can sense a certain palpable arrogance coming from these companies, as if they believe their product is flawless and perfect - and the only reason for any problems is because of stupid end users who don't know what they're doing.

I might sound just as arrogant, but as a guy who owns a software company, I can tell you that easily 90% of the "problems" that get reported about our products, do not concern bugs or other problems with the software.

Here's a software engineer meme about that

1726151069909.png


:joycat::joycat::joycat::joycat:

Nevertheless, we do help them out and provide proper support. But our customers are also on maintenance contracts... in fact those contracts are the heart of our business model. It's recurring income. There's a start up cost (acquiring the license, installation, training) but that's just operational money. The real revenue comes from those contracts. Every new customer is a new contract.

If a use who does not have such a contract calls me and tells me the software has a problem and the cause was him being an idiot, I wouldn't be so inclined to help out...


Yes, that may be one area which can be shored up, at least as far as fixing some of the laws regulating this activity. But that requires governmental action, which then becomes political, but politicians have a certain love for capitalism (and money) that somehow ideologically prevents them from supporting anything which might be deemed government interference in the free market.

So, again, it comes back to this love of money and profits.

I think it's easy to think that way, but the reality is a bit more complex then that.
We are talking about multi-billion dollar companies here. Trillion dollar companies even.
And it's not just them... their tentacles stretch out to so many layers of business.... Many companies today don't even have a website... they have an instagram or facebook page. Imagine the economic repercussions if overnight laws are voted which would literally make the core practices of these companies clearly illegal.

Some time ago, I remember there was a disruption and facebook / instagram was out globally for a couple of hours. That alone costed the economy already billions of dollars. Plenty of stocks went into the red.

People would have to be prepared for a little "shock and awe" economically to handle this properly.

I'm getting a sense of it. I don't have Netflix at present, but I'll keep an eye out for it if it shows up on other channels.

You should. It's a real eye opener. A must see.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
No, this is not an accurate representation of the situation at all. And if you would have read the post instead of replying as you read, you might have realized this.
When these companies started out, their goal was not to manipulate or provide a platform for manipulation. Their goal was to make the internet easier to use. But off course they also need to make money and they build their business model around selling advertisement space. Nothing particularly wrong with that.
They build algorithms so that they could provide users with relevant newsfeeds and ads based on the individual user's interest. By itself, that also is a pretty innocent idea.

Years later, well after their business models were well established and at the heart of their operation, the abuse started occurring.
And now they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Moderating it is near impossible simply due to the sheer volume.
They ended up in a situation where the only real effective way to stop the abuse, is to destroy the business model, which would effectively destroy their business and livelihood.

This is the issue.
To try and frame this as them choosing "mega-profit + abuse" over "modest profit without abuse" is simply not a correct representation of the situation.

Yes, I can see what you're saying. They set all this up with the intention of making money, and for whatever reason, they could not (or would not) anticipate the abuses that would come later (perhaps due to the same arrogance we were discussing).

In any case, it doesn't change the bottom line in that the problem has to be addressed at the weakest link.

Not sure what you mean with the heroin comment, but in any case... attacking the problem at its source would effectively translate into pretty much shutting social media down. Or at least completely turn it on its head, which would result in the users actually having to pay to access it. It would likely also mean the end of the "youtuber" and "the influencer" because those people literally make their money by piggybacking on the algoritms and ads. But I'ld be fine with that though :D

They're addicted to making money, and even though what they're doing is causing harm, they just can't break the cycle of addiction. You yourself said they're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Besides, these Big Tech billionaires are so rich, they could quit tomorrow and have enough to live on easy street for the rest of their lives. They don't need to keep going on with this.

On the other hand, what are the chances of some kind of technological solution? I was thinking about this in a thread about deep fakes and how people may not be able to tell the difference between a deep fake and a real picture. Is there a possible way of implementing an application which can ferret out and detect the "fakes" from the "reals"?

Another thing that might be a good technology to have: Whenever I get a call from some would be scammer or phone solicitor, my caller ID makes it appear as a local number, although I strongly suspect that it is a masked number and not the caller's true originating number. I want a technology which can instantly defeat that and give me the caller's true originating number, location, and even physical address if necessary. If they're going to invade my right to privacy, then turnabout is fair play.

So, if they want to keep their business model intact and keep making money, it seems their best course of action should be to work on making it more difficult for the bad guys to hide on the internet.

Sure. Apple also similar things.
Here's the thing though.... In the case of msft, it barely accounts for 2% of their revenue. They could shut it down and barely feel a dent.
Nore are they the real problem either. Their share in this industry is so small, it doesn't really have an impact.

The point is though: if tomorrow laws are voted that outlaw such practices, they won't be feeling it. Google, Meta, etc on the other hand....

I do find myself using Google more often because they seem to have more productive search results. When I first got online, I started using Yahoo and Alta Vista, before Google came on the scene. It was sometimes difficult to navigate, but not impossible. But it did improve over the years, so maybe that's due to the algorithms making the internet easier, as you mentioned above. I don't even really mind the ads all that much, since I figure that's just part of the deal. Just like we get commercials when watching TV shows. I don't mind, as long as it's to a tolerable degree.

For news and information, I'd go directly to the sites which were set up for that purpose, such as CNN, AP, or any number of local news sites. I actually visit quite a wide variety of news websites from around the world. I like getting different points of view and seeing how people from around the world think. I have no real need for anyone to send me stories or links, but if I happen to see a story that seems questionable, I'll try to find other sources to verify.

I might sound just as arrogant, but as a guy who owns a software company, I can tell you that easily 90% of the "problems" that get reported about our products, do not concern bugs or other problems with the software.

Here's a software engineer meme about that

View attachment 97051

:joycat::joycat::joycat::joycat:

Nevertheless, we do help them out and provide proper support. But our customers are also on maintenance contracts... in fact those contracts are the heart of our business model. It's recurring income. There's a start up cost (acquiring the license, installation, training) but that's just operational money. The real revenue comes from those contracts. Every new customer is a new contract.

If a use who does not have such a contract calls me and tells me the software has a problem and the cause was him being an idiot, I wouldn't be so inclined to help out...

I can understand that professionals take pride in their work, and I respect that. But if we're talking about a situation where it's described as some kind of "cyber war," then arrogance may not be a virtue. Americans are sometimes faulted for being arrogant, and in some cases, it's well-earned, but there have been times in our past where our arrogance has bitten us in the backside. We're all human, and sometimes, we have to expect the unexpected.

I think it's easy to think that way, but the reality is a bit more complex then that.
We are talking about multi-billion dollar companies here. Trillion dollar companies even.
And it's not just them... their tentacles stretch out to so many layers of business.... Many companies today don't even have a website... they have an instagram or facebook page. Imagine the economic repercussions if overnight laws are voted which would literally make the core practices of these companies clearly illegal.

Some time ago, I remember there was a disruption and facebook / instagram was out globally for a couple of hours. That alone costed the economy already billions of dollars. Plenty of stocks went into the red.

People would have to be prepared for a little "shock and awe" economically to handle this properly.

I don't have a Facebook or Instagram account, so if a company doesn't have a website and only has a Facebook page, I won't be able to do any business with them. I never could understand why companies started doing that, as opposed to just having a regular website. Even on local radio stations, I'd hear commentators constantly say "Like us on Facebook," as they're giving free advertising to Facebook and helping their business. I see the Facebook logo everywhere, and I keep asking myself: WHY??!?

One thing that might be useful and more in the spirit of community would be to "share the wealth" and break these companies up, just like they did with AT&T back in the day. How did it get to be where there are just a few giant mega-corporations with little to no real competition? If the traditional principles of the "free market" can't work here, then the solution is obvious.

You should. It's a real eye opener. A must see.

I'll keep an eye for it.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
As most of us know the Justice Dept has taken action against various people and domain sites for what they say is propaganda/disinformation.
What I don't know is what propaganda/disinformation was being promulgated.
It's not that I don't trust the Justice Dept completly but they seem to have somewhat of a bad track record on their assessment of information given to the public.

Think you need to stop trusting the Justice Department .. along with the Uniparty .. and complicit mainstream media .. who are the one's feeding you propaganda ... a hurricane diverting your attention to a manufactured rain drop ..

This /Russia Russia .. stuff is completely stupid .. it matter not to the fortunes of Russia whether Red or Blue gets in -- to any great degree .. and if they are rooting for one candidate over another .. good for them .. it is not like they were orchestrating some big propaganda campaign of any significance .. and Nothing by comparison to other foreign influencers .. AIPAC for example ... and the Donor Class .. who we can not address as "Domestic" even when a few of their members might be ..

Now .. Propaganda means there is a lie .. falsehood being spread .. if it does not contain that it is not propaganda.. when I looked at the Facebook Ads .. that group spent that was supposedly connected to Russia ..~120,000 worth of ads .. a small number .. one of them was a Pic of Bernie Sanders with the Caption "The Clinton Foundation is a problem" .. something Bernie said every chance he got .. was his slogan.

??? where is the lie .. ? where is the propaganda ? I really wish someone would show us this propaganda for which Trump had a special council investigate him .. an election meddler.

The information on HIllary was all True .. the dirty deeds of Kankles and the DNC .. what was done to Bernie -- which was the election meddling.

How did release of this information "HARM" our electoral process .. as was stated .. info we never did figure out where came from ... but matters not .. How does a US citizen knowing the dirty deeds of a candidate prior to voting day HARM our electoral process .. Please tell me ..
 

anna.

colors your eyes with what's not there
Social media consumers who end up in that information bubble through the algoritms.



The tech companies write the algoritms.



Tech companies.



Money



Money, ignorance, tech illiteracy



Not really. These algoritms were designed with the best intentions, to serve people with their interests. To make using the internet easy. It just got terribly out of hand and this opened it up for abuse. And now we are at a point where these tech companies are faced with the choice: ignore the abuse or destroy their own business model.

Ad revenue is the bread and butter of these companies. The model of targeted ads / newsfeeds etc based on user data is what attracts partners. They'ld have to destroy this model to close the loophole. This would effectively drain their income. In short: they are stuck between a rock and a hard place.



Msft and apple are not the issue. Their business model doesn't depend on ad revenue and "selling" user data. They make their money selling software and hardware. They can perfectly do without these systems. Google, facebook and alike, can not. Why do you think it is that these companies' services and software are "free" to use? It's because their money comes from elsewhere.



The early internet didn't have this problem.



Yeah, they are crying all the way to the bank...




Actually, the real world equivalent would be going to a market place where the various sellers have access to a gigantic database on people's lives and after doing a search on your social security number, knowing what your hobbies are, what car you drive, who your wife is, how many kids you have, what their hobbies are, what shows you like, what youtube channels you subscribe to, what food you like, etc etc etc etc and then adjust what they yell at you to that information to raise their chances of getting your attention....



I disagree with that. I don't think it is legal. There is a thing like privacy. The problem is that these laws are outdated and the coverage thereof in cyberspace is very much a grey area. To the point of stupid "work arounds" a la "your data is stored on a server in the djabouti, where your government doesn't have jurisdiction"

So following the law to the "letter", it's not illegal. However, if we would consider the spirit of the laws, then I'ld say it's very much illegal.
Your postman can't read your mail to decide what ad pamflet to put in your mailbox, so why should google be allowed to scan your gmail?
The thing is that law covers written letters and the ridiculously complex EULA of gmail that you signed and didn't read because it's a 1000 pages of lawyer talk, has small footnotes that says you give them permission to do it.



It is complex but at the same time very simple.
You have netflix? Go watch the docu "The Social Dilemma".
And realize it's just the tip of the iceberg as it focusses only on one particular aspect of this whole mess.



I remember that too. I can tell you that this is not comparable at all.
You'll realize just how much it is not comparable after watching that documentary.



The difference is that it's never been as easy as it is today.
Everyone has their own personal propaganda machine in its pocket. And it's a machine packed with tools and utilities that are designed from the ground up to abuse your human psychological weaknesses. This is far beyond anything done before. This is unprecedented, on a scale that was never possible, with an ease that was never before possible. And the advent of AI is just going to make this all even worse then it already is.



Absolutely. But we don't have that.



Sure. But this is just a bandaid on a near fatal wound.
Consider youtube for example. In 2022, 500 hours of video were uploaded to the platform per minute.
How on earth can a company moderate that? Even if they hire half a million workers to do just that, there's no way.
And I'm not just talking about censoring hate speech or violence... I'm also talking about fact checking to stop the spread of "fake news".



Sure, but mostly only for the higher profile users.
Go to youtube and search for "flat earth documentary". Go see how many hours upon hours of video there is of people claiming and arguing the earth is flat, that the moon landing was fake, etc etc. And that just one weirdo topic.

BTW: spread of fake news on twitter exploded exponentially ever since Elon took over and closed down all those departments that kept themselves busy with exactly that.


Sure.

And regardless of this abuse, from day one I said that what they were doing was borderline illegal and unethical.
The very business model are evil and unethical. Regardless of the abuse.
They collect user data, build giant psychological profiles of their users and then sell that data to third parties. It's a massive violation of privacy.

These services are "free" only because you "pay" with the currency of your own life.

I'm proud to say that to this day, I have no "social media" accounts on any of these platforms and I avoid them like the plague.
I constantly advice everybody to do the same and if they already have them, to -if possible- delete them all and stay away.

Shameless plug for my thread about the book The Chaos Machine which explains how the algorithms work at YouTube and Facebook, and how they consistently pull the fringes to the forefront ultimately radicalizing the user. Excellent research, I highly recommend.
I don't have Facebook either, didn't want it from the beginning. I don't have Twitter, Instagram, and while I use YouTube (mostly for music) I don't sign in and regularly erase my history (apparently YouTube will track your history by your device, without you even being logged in).

 

Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
Based on that article, it appears that they're buying up media in the U.S., which isn't much different from what other major corporations and media conglomerates have been doing these past decades. I think it's safe to say that every political faction is vying for influence and to try to shift public opinion in their favor. Even those from other countries might try to do so.

As for these American right-wing "influencers" supposedly working for the Russians, who cares what they have to say anyway? Nobody can be influenced unless they want to be influenced.

I think it says more about the gullibility of the American public than it does about any nefarious intentions on the Russians' part.

I think an underestimation of the influence and effect perpetrated by propaganda during times of war, or any other time really, is a dangerous position to attempt to uphold. It's more psychological than anything, but very effective. I'd like to think I'm not so gullible to fall in head first, but I know better than that. At the moment, the infiltration has set us on course to a national level demoralization, all while the previous years have been catering to our sense of safety, despite the long standing threats against us. Our leaders may as well appear on Saturday night live to a vast majority of our citizens not to mention other nations. Not only have they been targeted as chumps, crooks, fools, and senile, American citizens have been crusading the effort against them, which in turn jeopardizes our standing as a competent nation worth standing with by other world leaders we may well need to depend on as we venture forward during these turbulent times.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I think an underestimation of the influence and effect perpetrated by propaganda during times of war, or any other time really, is a dangerous position to attempt to uphold. It's more psychological than anything, but very effective. I'd like to think I'm not so gullible to fall in head first, but I know better than that. At the moment, the infiltration has set us on course to a national level demoralization, all while the previous years have been catering to our sense of safety, despite the long standing threats against us. Our leaders may as well appear on Saturday night live to a vast majority of our citizens not to mention other nations. Not only have they been targeted as chumps, crooks, fools, and senile, American citizens have been crusading the effort against them, which in turn jeopardizes our standing as a competent nation worth standing with by other world leaders we may well need to depend on as we venture forward during these turbulent times.

I think Americans have been subjected to propaganda for generations. For whatever reason, it seems the Powers That Be have sought to turn Americans into being more pliable and manipulable, instead of encouraging them to be free thinkers and to question authority. Nobody really saw any problem with that until recently. I wonder why.
 

Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
I think Americans have been subjected to propaganda for generations. For whatever reason, it seems the Powers That Be have sought to turn Americans into being more pliable and manipulable, instead of encouraging them to be free thinkers and to question authority. Nobody really saw any problem with that until recently. I wonder why.
Our social programming is ongoing. Lots of people are beginning to power off the media and social platforms in favor of less drama-oriented lifestyles apart from the programming efforts. This seems appealing, only I'm far too interested in world events to turn it all off. I would possibly be able to breathe easier without the drama-oriented news and social feeds. I guess maybe I'm too fearful of missing something important to let it go. That's probably it.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
(apparently YouTube will track your history by your device, without you even being logged in).
Yep. And not just youtube.

Also, if you log in regularly into google services (gmail, youtube, whatever) on that same device... the google servers will link that device to your account. So they'll know that you at least have access to it.

When you log into google on a device for the first time, you'll get a mail from google telling you "first time log in to new device, was this you?" pretending it to be for "security" reasons. If you ignore the mail, nothing will happen. You can also open it and affirm that it was you. DING, link made.
 
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