• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Russian Propaganda

Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
I think the intent, if such a thing were to come about, would be to send a message of "screw you" to the U.S. Just as with 9/11, it won't really weaken us militarily or strategically, but it's more a form of psychological warfare.
We've been under some stressors the last few, and while I don't think they would, it's the attitude that gets me thinking. 9/11 seemed to be the beginning of a larger machine. 23 years years later, conflict has increased in other areas. The psychological aspects noted enough to be both ongoing and sometimes desynthetizing, which could prove dangerous. Never forget rings a bell, but sometimes we forget things or take them for granted.
 

Tinkerpeach

Active Member
I think Putin’s preferred option would be to freeze current borders where they are, and install a Kremlin-friendly president in Kyiv.

What he really doesn’t get, I mean he seems incapable of understanding, is that Ukrainians will never simply comply as the Russian people do, no matter how much he tries to pound them into submission. With his inability to understand and their unwillingness to be controlled by a foreign power, Putin is going to have to rethink what is needed to keep the Russian Federation together. He does seem to think that ‘losing’ Ukraine - losing political control over Ukraine that is - will lead to secession attempts by other Russian colonies, those ‘republics’ who for the moment are kept in line via puppet governments. Backed into a corner, meaning facing the loss of Russia’s whole sphere of influence, it’s anyone’s guess what he might think is necessary.
The problems between Ukraine go very deep and have existed since 1991 roughly.

They got worse when Ukraine started the Donbas War against the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine.

Putin negotiated over 20 ceasefires with Ukraine but they broke every single one all while the UN and NATO turned a blind eye.

Now NATO is threatening to send in ground forces while Ukraine is trying to pressure the US to use their weapons to strike deep inside Russia.

Don’t you think that requires a strong response from the Kremlin?
 

Tinkerpeach

Active Member
I think Putin’s preferred option would be to freeze current borders where they are, and install a Kremlin-friendly president in Kyiv.

What he really doesn’t get, I mean he seems incapable of understanding, is that Ukrainians will never simply comply as the Russian people do, no matter how much he tries to pound them into submission. With his inability to understand and their unwillingness to be controlled by a foreign power, Putin is going to have to rethink what is needed to keep the Russian Federation together. He does seem to think that ‘losing’ Ukraine - losing political control over Ukraine that is - will lead to secession attempts by other Russian colonies, those ‘republics’ who for the moment are kept in line via puppet governments. Backed into a corner, meaning facing the loss of Russia’s whole sphere of influence, it’s anyone’s guess what he might think is necessary.
The problems between Ukraine go very deep and have existed since 1991 roughly.

They got worse when Ukraine started the Donbas War against the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine.

Putin negotiated over 20 ceasefires with Ukraine but they broke every single one all while the UN and NATO turned a blind eye.

Now NATO is threatening to send in ground forces while Ukraine is trying to pressure the US to use their weapons to strike deep inside Russia.

Don’t you think that requires a strong response from the Kremlin?
 

Tinkerpeach

Active Member
I think Putin’s preferred option would be to freeze current borders where they are, and install a Kremlin-friendly president in Kyiv.

What he really doesn’t get, I mean he seems incapable of understanding, is that Ukrainians will never simply comply as the Russian people do, no matter how much he tries to pound them into submission. With his inability to understand and their unwillingness to be controlled by a foreign power, Putin is going to have to rethink what is needed to keep the Russian Federation together. He does seem to think that ‘losing’ Ukraine - losing political control over Ukraine that is - will lead to secession attempts by other Russian colonies, those ‘republics’ who for the moment are kept in line via puppet governments. Backed into a corner, meaning facing the loss of Russia’s whole sphere of influence, it’s anyone’s guess what he might think is necessary.
The problems between Ukraine go very deep and have existed since 1991 roughly.

They got worse when Ukraine started the Donbas War against the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine.

Putin negotiated over 20 ceasefires with Ukraine but they broke every single one all while the UN and NATO turned a blind eye.

Now NATO is threatening to send in ground forces while Ukraine is trying to pressure the US to use their weapons to strike deep inside Russia.

Don’t you think that requires a strong response from the Kremlin?
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
The problems between Ukraine go very deep and have existed since 1991 roughly.

Nonsense. They have existed since the time of Peter the Great and were exacerbated under the expansionist rule of Catherine the Great. In the last century, Stalin's horrific Holodomor (deliberate famine in Ukraine; literally means "hunger death" in Ukrainian) and Great Purge made those problems far worse. The Ukrainian SSR voted in 1991 to secede from the Soviet Union, not Russia. The Russian Empire no longer existed at that time, although everyone also knew that the Soviet Union was a wink-wink extension of the earlier Russian Empire. Gorbachev made the mistake of thinking that the Soviet SSRs would all want to remain in the Soviet Union dominated by ethnic Russians, so he allowed the so-called republics to vote on accepting a liberalized version of that union. The SU recognized the independence of all three Baltic states in September 1991, and Ukraine broke away in December of that year.


They got worse when Ukraine started the Donbas War against the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine.

The Donbas war was started by Russian infiltration and sponsorship of local separatist movements. It was the beginning of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and it happened in in 2014, after the overthrow of Putin ally Viktor Yanukovych by the Maidan Revolution (aka Revolution of Dignity). You are either ignorant of true Ukrainian history, or you don't want to acknowledge it.

In 1994, the Russian Federation officially signed the Budapest Memorandum, which guaranteed Ukrainian sovereignty in the Donbas. Putin simply ignored Russia's obligation in 1994 to honor Ukrainian sovereignty and fomented rebellion against the Ukrainian government. He did so for transparent reasons--because of the popular uprising against President Viktor Yanukovych, who had reneged on his promise to move Ukraine closer to the EU. Yanukovych made that promise, because the Orange Revolution in 2004-2005 had overthrown his earlier attempt to steal the presidential election. Yanukovych had actually won election narrowly in 2010 thanks, in part, to the help of Paul Manafort--Donald Trump's future campaign manager (in 2016). Yanukovych then subsequently moved to join Ukraine more closely with Russia, which was an extremely unpopular move.


Putin negotiated over 20 ceasefires with Ukraine but they broke every single one all while the UN and NATO turned a blind eye.

Another false statement. Russia never fulfilled any of the conditions under the Minsk Agreements, but Ukraine didn't either. One reason is that Ukraine was too weak to resist the separatist movement in Donbas, which was orchestrated with full Russian support. So Poroshenko had to agree to those terms to stop the Russian advances, but the terms were simply impossible for him to enforce, since some of them required constitutional changes and support from the Verkhovna Rada.

Now NATO is threatening to send in ground forces while Ukraine is trying to pressure the US to use their weapons to strike deep inside Russia.

Another false statement. NATO is not threatening to send any ground forces into Ukraine, and there is zero chance that US troops will be sent into Ukraine, since that would likely trigger a global nuclear war. There is pressure on the US to allow Ukraine to use their weapons to strike inside Russia at military targets, because Russia has been striking deeply into Ukrainian territory not just against military targets, but against civilian targets, as well.

Don’t you think that requires a strong response from the Kremlin?

I do. I think that the Kremlin should quickly withdraw all troops from Ukrainian territory and renew its pledge to respect Ukrainian sovereignty. That would be a strong response that nobody at all expects, but it is the one I think that the Kremlin is morally obligated to make.
 
Last edited:

Tomef

Well-Known Member
They got worse when Ukraine started the Donbas War against the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine.
A perfect example of how propaganda is supposed to work - watch a vid (or whatever) on a topic you know nothing about on the internet and believe it instantly, without the slightest attempt at a critical approach.
 
Last edited:

Tomef

Well-Known Member
Don’t you think that requires a strong response from the Kremlin?
Your question is, after fomenting a violent response to a democratic process deposing the Kremlin’s puppet ruler, invading Ukraine twice after that didn’t bring about the desired result, killing 10s of thousands of Ukrainian soldiers and civilians, carrying out an orchestrated campaign of terror, rape, looting and murder across occupied regions, the Kremlin should now ‘strongly respond’ to NATO led efforts to support Ukraine’s defence?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
We've been under some stressors the last few, and while I don't think they would, it's the attitude that gets me thinking. 9/11 seemed to be the beginning of a larger machine. 23 years years later, conflict has increased in other areas. The psychological aspects noted enough to be both ongoing and sometimes desynthetizing, which could prove dangerous. Never forget rings a bell, but sometimes we forget things or take them for granted.

When I look at the various political factions in America, the one thing that they all seem to have in common (despite the propagandistic rhetoric to the contrary) is that they all support American sovereignty, freedom, and independence. They are all (including Biden) "America Firsters," at least in their own way and from their own particular point of view. (They all wear U.S. flag pins and try to make a point that they are patriots for America.)

They attack each other not because of what they publicly believe, but because they claim they don't really believe it. Both sides accuse the other of being involved in intrigue with foreign governments, suggesting that their loyalty to America is compromised. Both sides claim to believe in freedom, while claiming the other secretly supports tyranny. (i.e. "Trump is a fascist!" and "Biden is a socialist!") Both sides claim the other is racist. Both sides claim the other wants to destroy democracy.

The war in Gaza is also another complication, since both the MAGAs and the Biden camp support Israel, although the Democrats are somewhat divided and conflicted on that. As a result, those supporting Palestine hate Biden for helping Israel, while the MAGAs claim that Biden is not helping Israel enough.

If the Russians launch some kind of symbolic attack on the U.S. (such as destroying the Statue of Liberty), that may have the effect of diverting people's attentions away from what they're arguing about now - and more towards some sort of unified idea of "America First" (although not necessarily Trump's version). It will cause a continued rise of xenophobia, which both parties have embraced to some extent. They'll still fight each other, but both parties will fall all over themselves to demonstrate that they love America more than the other side does. (They're already doing that now, to some extent.)

The end result will be that, no matter who wins, America will move more and more towards xenophobia and nationalism.
 

Tinkerpeach

Active Member
Your question is, after fomenting a violent response to a democratic process deposing the Kremlin’s puppet ruler, invading Ukraine twice after that didn’t bring about the desired result, killing 10s of thousands of Ukrainian soldiers and civilians, carrying out an orchestrated campaign of terror, rape, looting and murder across occupied regions, the Kremlin should now ‘strongly respond’ to NATO led efforts to support Ukraine’s defence?
There is a reason that Ukraine was denied entry into NATO and that is because they are extremely corrupt and the nation is run by mafia type thugs.

Biden even had to threaten withholding one billion in aid just to get them to fire one single corrupt prosecutor because they didn’t want to.

This is who you folks want to go to war for?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
There is a reason that Ukraine was denied entry into NATO and that is because they are extremely corrupt and the nation is run by mafia type thugs.

Biden even had to threaten withholding one billion in aid just to get them to fire one single corrupt prosecutor because they didn’t want to.

This is who you folks want to go to war for?

Yeah, well the enemy of my enemy is usefull, so yes.
As for entry in NATO that could change and is also up to the US, but not just them. The world is more than the US.
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
Is it just a coincidence that shortly after Putin replaced his defense minister with an economist, he offers to end the Ukraine war? Maybe he was told the war is not sustainable economically.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Nonsense. They have existed since the time of Peter the Great and were exacerbated under the expansionist rule of Catherine the Great. In the last century, Stalin's horrific Holodomor (deliberate famine in Ukraine; literally means "hunger death" in Ukrainian) and Great Purge made those problems far worse. The Ukrainian SSR voted in 1991 to secede from the Soviet Union, not Russia. The Russian Empire no longer existed at that time, although everyone also knew that the Soviet Union was a wink-wink extension of the earlier Russian Empire. Gorbachev made the mistake of thinking that the Soviet SSRs would all want to remain in the Soviet Union dominated by ethnic Russians, so he allowed the so-called republics to vote on accepting a liberalized version of that union. The SU recognized the independence of all three Baltic states in September 1991, and Ukraine broke away in December of that year.

Ukraine was never an independent nation-state prior to 1991. It never existed as an independent, sovereign entity before that time. The territory was always under the rule of some other country, whether Poland-Lithuania, Turkey, the Golden Horde. One could just as easily argue that Imperial Russia liberated Ukraine from foreign occupiers who never should have been there in the first place.

But either way, neither Peter the Great nor Catherine the Great invaded Ukraine, since there was no independent state of "Ukraine" to invade, as the territory was ruled by other countries. Peter invaded Sweden (which is also how Russia ended up in the Baltic region, which was also always under some other country's thumb), and Catherine invaded Turkey and annexed territory from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Also, it should be mentioned that Russia's primacy over Eastern Europe didn't really become solidified without the help of certain other Europeans. For one, Napoleon, who invaded Russia, which fought back, drove him out, then found themselves in a prestigious position as a victorious great power at the Congress of Vienna. You could also look at Prince von Metternich, who was influential at that Congress and established the European order at the time, which meant that Russia ruled in the East, gaining Poland, the Baltics, and Finland in the process. Imperial Russia's control over Ukraine had already been established and recognized even before that time.
The Holodomor was part of an overall famine which affected the entire Soviet Union, and it's rightly considered an atrocity blamed on Stalin and his government at the time. Stalin implemented a collectivization program in his first 5-year plan. Stalin wanted to accelerate industrialization of the country, which was where his focus actually was. Another aspect was the fact that Stalin's political power base and hold was in the cities, but the Bolsheviks' control over the countryside and rural areas (in both Ukraine, Russia, and all the other territories) was a bit tenuous and not fully solidified. Stalin ostensibly saw that as a threat against his power. The NEP also allowed for the rise of Kulaks who were getting rich, and Stalin apparently wanted to take them down a few notches and show them who's boss. Like in this scene here:


Of course, the farmers would not accept the state-imposed prices, so they essentially boycotted the State. They ate as much food as they could and destroyed the rest. They killed their livestock. They ate their seed grain so they had nothing left to plant with. The horrific famine then ensued.

But regardless of what view one might take, the conflict in question was between a Party/State of multiple nationalities versus Kulaks and other farmers of multiple nationalities. It was never a matter of "Russians vs. Ukrainians" as some might try to paint it. It was "Russians vs. Russians" and "Ukrainians vs. Ukrainians" as much as anything else. Civil wars are always complicated in that way.

The Purges were a completely different matter, as that was largely internal to the Communist Party itself and its internal apparatus. Stalin was able to keep the party machinery intact, and it still kept on rumbling along for a few decades after his death. But his successors weren't quite so paranoid or murderous (although that didn't make them choir boys either). Khrushchev and Brezhnev both came up through the ranks under Stalin, so they would have been sympathetic to those in the party who would have feared Stalin. As long as people did their jobs, kept their mouths shut, and didn't make waves, then they'd be left alone. Like the US, they had a huge military-industrial complex, and the Red Army was the biggest in the world. They were more geopolitically focused and started to expand their influence across the seas. The U.S. leadership considered them to be a grave threat to America and our way of life, so we were committed to stopping/restraining their possible expansion wherever they could.

By 1991, the original reasons for the Cold War and animosity (largely stemming from the time of the World Wars) no longer seemed relevant. Even the Holodomor and Great Purges were a thing of the distant past, just like slavery in the U.S. and the British occupation of India. They allowed Germany to become reunited again, since they felt reasonably confident that they would never turn Nazi again.

It is truly unfortunate that the newly-formed independent governments could not come together more amicably. None of them were "Soviet" or even "Communist" anymore, so what was the problem? And why couldn't the West be a bit more empathetic and understanding to the situation they were facing? The Soviet Union did not surrender to the West. They mutually decided to break up of their own accord. Technically, all of the Soviet Republics had the right to secede, which was guaranteed in their Constitution, but apparently no one wanted to secede prior to 1990. But once they did decide to secede, it was done legally. The hardliners tried to prevent it with a coup in 1991, which brought Gorbachev down, but the coup fizzled out and suddenly Yeltsin was in there. Kind of an odd, unlikely series of events.

Still, once the Soviet Union was no more, the hardliners locked up or dead or otherwise neutralized, and all of the Republics peacefully transitioning to becoming independent, sovereign states, there didn't seem to be any immediate reason for any conflict - and for the most part, there hasn't been, up until recent years.
 

Tinkerpeach

Active Member
Yeah, well the enemy of my enemy is usefull, so yes.
As for entry in NATO that could change and is also up to the US, but not just them. The world is more than the US.
NATO is the US lol.
Yeah, can you pinpoint it more.
The part you have qouted tells us nothing as such or than there was a ceasefire. Not who broke it.
You can research it on your own and make your own decision.

The point is that it’s been a mess for a very long time.

This is not Russia trying to invade Europe it’s an internal conflict between Russia and Ukraine and no business of ours.

By America getting involved we are just making it worse. Putin had a peace offer right at the beginning but Zelensky refused it and has been trying to suck NATO into the fight ever since.
 
Top