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Sad parting

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Well, it seems that there's really no place for me to go within the Anglican Church as an orthodox Christian -- at least in my diocese. As a result, I've left the church. Essentially, I had a short conversation with the rector of the church, asking him whether he performs same-sex blessings. Now, the conversation was short, and neither of us had the time at the moment to discuss the matter further. But his answer was "Well, the issue hasn't presented itself to us because no member of our congregation has asked for such a blessing. So we've never had to ask the bishop permission to perform it." So I took it that the church was, at this point, sitting on the fence. Given the situation in our diocese, I figured that was fair enough.

And I have to say, Anglo-Catholic liturgy is deep and meaningful, so on that level I was totally hooked. I also appreciated that the church performs mass every day and also conducts morning and evening prayer every day. So it's a worshipful community. I also liked that, so perhaps I read into the rector's response more favorably than I ought to have done.

Anyway, last Sunday the church offered a sabattical commissioning rite, and during the rite it was made clear that the priest was openly gay. Now the rector's answer seemed a bit more evasive. In any case, I have discontinued my participation with that church.

But what's a faithful Anglican to do? I mean, Anglicanism is all about the "via media". That is, we're catholic but not Roman; reformed but not schismatic. But if we're catholic, we must cling to traditional ethics and submit to the rulings of the ecumenical councils. That means both we must affirm the sinfulness of homosexual behavior (yet not treat it any differently than any other sexual sin) AND, even if your diocese performs same-sex unions or whatever, you must not break away from the diocese and seek "alternative episcopal oversight." But in my diocese, we perform same-sex blessings. Those churches who protest against this have sought foreign episcopal oversight. It's a mess. In other words, in my diocese, there's nothing particularly Anglican about the Anglican church anymore.

There's one (and only one) church in our diocese where traditional Christianity is affirmed and yet they've not broken from the bishop. But there's nothing about this church's worship that's particularly Anglican, either. It uses little of the liturgy that makes Anglicanism distinct from other evangelical expressions. So again, what's the point of going there as opposed to the Baptist church or whatever?

It's a shame because I really do love Anglicanism. I'd like to stick with them through the current crisis, but I don't think I can do that. Certainly, my wife (who has a much stronger Protestant attitude than me) has "had enough." So, with regret, I have ended my participation with the Anglican Church.

If the Church somehow manages to get past the current crisis in North America (the crisis in Anglicanism is pretty much focussed on North America -- the other provinces aren't affected by it), perhaps I'll return. But the Anglican Church will have to demonstrate that they truly do represent a via media in North America.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
That's too bad Dune. Sorry you feel compelled to make this choice. I like the inclusiveness of the Episcopal Church. I would have the oppsite problem from you I suppose. If I heard a sermon about how it's wrong to have gay priests or perform same-sex blessings I'd probably leave my church.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
doppelgänger;1216865 said:
That's what I was going to say.

Otherwise, you'd be a "cafeteria Anglican" and nowhere near as obedient ("faithful") or "conservative" as you think you are. ;)

I actually hear and respect this point of view, and I'm certainly aware of the not-so-subtle whiff of hypocrisy that my story exudes. In my defense, I'm a recent convert to Anglicanism. (It's not much of a defense, I realize, but there it is.) I saw it as a real alternative to the stale, ahistorical evangelicalism around me and, to answer stephenw's question, what I take to be the anti-biblical positions held by the RCC (purgatory, hagiolatry, transubstantiation, closed communion, papal supremacy and infallibility, the list goes on). So when I joined up, I was quite enthusiastic about the possibilities.

I guess I'm impressed now with the lack of possibilities. I understand the criticism leveled at me, but how am I to take spiritual direction and offer spiritual subordination to a man or woman who actively sins without any sense of guilt? Would you subordinate yourself to a priest who was an inveterate drunkard, proud of his habit and drunkard's reputation? Would you subordinate yourself to a priest who was a philanderer? That's what's at issue in staying in a church. I don't ask that my priests be perfect. But I do ask that they be righteous, especially in those areas where scripture is crystal clear. And I expect the church to discipline members who step out of line. If such discipline is absent, I cannot confidently subordinate myself to its leadership.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
I guess I'm impressed now with the lack of possibilities. I understand the criticism leveled at me, but how am I to take spiritual direction and offer spiritual subordination to a man or woman who actively sins without any sense of guilt? Would you subordinate yourself to a priest who was an inveterate drunkard, proud of his habit and drunkard's reputation? Would you subordinate yourself to a priest who was a philanderer? That's what's at issue in staying in a church. I don't ask that my priests be perfect. But I do ask that they be righteous, especially in those areas where scripture is crystal clear. And I expect the church to discipline members who step out of line. If such discipline is absent, I cannot confidently subordinate myself to its leadership.

For my myself, I've never considered myself in 'spiritual subordination' to anyone, and have never thought that is somehow part of being in a church or religion. We don't bow to priests, we bow to the cross.

If you are talking about spiritual direction, where you either enter a monestary or a spriritual direction relationship with another Christian (and it does not have to be a priest, it can be anyone although usually they have some experience and education in spiritual direction), again you are submitting yourself to an ordinary human being, sins and all.

I would say, again I'll only speak for myself, that first it's not up to us to judge another's righteousness and second, thank God we don't need to be righteous to be forgiven and beloved, and to perform in our roles as ministers of God.

Technically speaking, Augustine settled the issue long ago that the 'sin' of the priest has no bearing on the sacrament.

Humanely speaking, how much more significant it is to be in relationship with another human, your warts and all, their warts and all.

Finally, the spiritual direction relationship is just that...a relationship chosen by both parties. No one would expect or want you to enter that kind of relationship with someone you don't trust. It's not the normal relationship between parishioner and priest.

Of course I'm not trying to change your mind about anything. Just wanted to state, for those reading along, that what you've described is not normative for all Anglicans.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Leaving a church over dogma happens quite often. You will find a lot of angst over your decision in the coming days or even weeks.
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Possibly. I doubt it. It wouldn't "liberate" me to subordinate myself to someone who openly sins, regardless of the sin. How could it?
Pardon me, I expressed myself poorly. What I meant was that maybe you will find it liberating to no longer be subordinate to another. Right now you are your own ultimate authoity.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Pardon me, I expressed myself poorly. What I meant was that maybe you will find it liberating to no longer be subordinate to another. Right now you are your own ultimate authoity.

Liberating? Perhaps, in a sense. But it's not entirely human. Social beings such as we are must subordinate ourselves to others. You're subordinate to the state in a great number of ways. You're subordinate to your parents. You're subordinate to your boss. So why should it be strange to subordinate myself to a priest?
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Liberating? Perhaps, in a sense. But it's not entirely human. Social beings such as we are must subordinate ourselves to others. You're subordinate to the state in a great number of ways. You're subordinate to your parents. You're subordinate to your boss. So why should it be strange to subordinate myself to a priest?
I don't mean to drag your thread off, but I am subordinate to no-man. I have no betters and I perceive myself as being above none.
I am free. I cannot imagine accepting another's authority.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
I don't mean to drag your thread off, but I am subordinate to no-man. I have no betters and I perceive myself as being above none.
I am free. I cannot imagine accepting another's authority.

Subordination does not imply that the other person is your better. And OF COURSE you accept others' authority over you in many ways. Don't be foolish.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
This thread is getting a bit off topic. I'm surprised that in the Anglican forum I've heard from everyone other than Anglicans. That's not a particular issue for me, and as I've said, I recognize that I fall prey to the accusation of hypocrisy to a certain degree. All I can really say is that I'm deeply disappointed and sad. I hope that the North American Church can get its act together before the worldwide communion simply excommunicates them.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I "used to be Anglican," and still consider myself Anglican in many ways, even though I serve a congregation in another denomination.

As humanity has grown, progressed and changed, there have been many moral and ethical issues that have had to be recast in a new light. Personally, I believe that homosexuality as an inherent sin is one of them. We got over the slavery thing. We mostly have gotten over the ordination of females. Now we're dealing with homosexuality on a basis that faces the reality of human social life in a realistic way.

There's a difference between being responsible to the tenets of scripture and hiding behind them, because we're uncomfortable with something. Scriptures were never meant to hide behind. But they are presented as a lens of our Tradition. I think that we have to weigh scripture, that is, we have to determine what is valid in a literalistic, objective sense, and what should be either discarded or given less weight in a subjective sense.

Right now, the Church is trying to reconcile what has been strict, dogmatic teaching with what is happening in the real world. Medical science has declined to list homosexuality as a psychological abberation. We find that many homosexual couples live in fidelity to each other, showing the kind of love spoken of in the Rite of Marriage. Whaddo we do with that!? Do the of-spoken ideas of unconditional love, openness, inclusiveness and forbearance trump the few passages that appear to put homosexuality in a bad light?

Not sure I'd leave the Church over trying to deal honestly with an honest social issue.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
I too am sorry that you should feel that way- that the only way is "out".

I have stuggled with this whole subject; how could God create beings that are "naturally homosexual" ( we know that it is not a matter of choice); is it a test for us to deal with? Are we to deny the Church teachins, the Bible, and all that we knew? Why?

Perhaps the answer is that God is Love; "Judge not lest ye be judged". Using those two principles, I decided a few years back that if that was God's will, how would he want us to react? Hence my stance. As for Gay Clergy, we have women clergy - which is not tradition - not "How it was meant to be"............
 

justamere10

Member
I'm not Anglican though I was raised Roman Catholic before converting to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I'm just curious what Anglicans on this board have to say about the invitation from the Vatican for disenchanted Anglicans to join the Catholic church. Is that a viable option for faithful Anglicans who are not content with the liberal happenings in their church?
 
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