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Sad parting

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
I'm just curious what Anglicans on this board have to say about the invitation from the Vatican for disenchanted Anglicans to join the Catholic church. Is that a viable option for faithful Anglicans who are not content with the liberal happenings in their church?

I don't think an Anglican can join the RCC and remain Anglican. Part of what it means to be Anglican is not to accept the supremacy of Rome over dioceses other than Rome. Being Anglican also means not subscribing to certain Roman tenets, including transubstantiation (although Anglicans affirm the real presence of Christ during Eucharist -- the whole thing, not just when the bell chimes). There are other issues, but these suffice to show that rejoining the RCC means giving up being Anglican.
 

justamere10

Member
I don't think an Anglican can join the RCC and remain Anglican. Part of what it means to be Anglican is not to accept the supremacy of Rome over dioceses other than Rome. Being Anglican also means not subscribing to certain Roman tenets, including transubstantiation (although Anglicans affirm the real presence of Christ during Eucharist -- the whole thing, not just when the bell chimes). There are other issues, but these suffice to show that rejoining the RCC means giving up being Anglican.

Do you think then that it was just an opportunistic move by the Vatican to bring more people into their fold, or a genuine act of reaching out to distressed others?
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Do you think then that it was just an opportunistic move by the Vatican to bring more people into their fold, or a genuine act of reaching out to distressed others?

Well, the RCC is desperate for priests at the moment, so it wouldn't surprise me if there were some self interest here. Get some new priests, look good ecumenically, all that. That said, it may have been motivated by a desire to relieve the distress of traditional Anglicans. Unlike some others around here, I don't think that everything the RCC does is a crass power grab.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Slighly tangential but relevant to the previous questions, Taylor Marshall briefly served as an Anglican priest before converting to Catholicism in 2006. Marshall said he speaks with new Catholic converts every month, about half of whom have been "deeply influenced" by (Anglican) Bishop of Durham, Tom Wright.

"If you buy into Wright's approach to covenantal theology, then you've already taken three steps toward the Catholic Church. Keep following the trail and you'll be Catholic," said Marshall. "Salvation is sacramental, transformational, communal, and eschatological. Sound good? You've just assented to the Catholic Council of Trent."

The above was taken from Not All Evangelicals and Catholics Together | Christianity Today | A Magazine of Evangelical Conviction

The following is Tom Wright's response as published in a list I belong to of people who follow the Bishop's work. A member has asked for the source of this response, and we're still awaiting the answer. I'll update you when I have that answer. Anyway, here it is:

a. I'm on sabbatical writing Volume IV of my big series, on Paul; so I don't have time for more than a quick response.

b. 'Sacramental, transformational, communal, eschatological' ? If you gave me that list and said 'Where in the Christian world would you find that?' I could easily and truthfully answer: (i) in the best of the Reformed tradition -- spend a couple of days at Calvin College, or read Jamie Smith's new book, and you'll see; (ii) in much of the best of the charismatic movement, once it's shed its low-church prejudices and discovered how much God loves bodies; (iii) in the best of... dare I say it... Anglicanism. .. ; (iv) in some bits (not all) of the Emerging Church movement . . .

c. Trent said both much more and much less than this. Sacramental, yes, but in a muddled way with an unhelpful ontology; transformational, yes, but far too dependent on unbiblical techniques and practices; communal, yes, but don't let the laity (or the women) get any fancy ideas about God working new things through them; and eschatological? ? Eschatology in the biblical sense didn't loom large, and indeed that was a key element in the Reformers' protest: the once-for-allness of the events of Jesus' death and resurrection as producing, not a new system for doing the same stuff over and over, but a new world. Trent, and much subsequent RC theology, has had a habit of never spring-cleaning, so you just live in a house with more and more clutter building up, lots of right answers to wrong questions (e.g. transsubstantiation ) which then get in the way when you want to get something actually done. In particular, Trent gave the wrong answer, at a deep level, to the nature/grace question, which is what's at the root of the Marian dogmas and devotions which, despite contrary claims, are in my view neither sacramental, transformational, communal nor eschatological. Nor biblical. The best RCs I know (some of whom would strongly disagree with the last point, some would strongly agree) are great conversation partners mainly because they have found ways of pushing the accumulated clutter quietly to one side and creating space for real life. But it's against the grain of the Tridentine system, in my view. They aren't allowed to say that but clearly many of them think it. Joining in is just bringing more of your own clutter to an already confused and overcrowded room...

d. I am sorry to think that there are people out there whose Protestantism has been so barren that they never found out about sacraments, transformation, community or eschatology. Clearly this person needed a change. But to jump to Rome for that reason is very odd. It reminds me of the fine old German NT scholar Heinrich Schlier, who found that the only way to be a Protestant was to be a Bultmannian, so, because he couldn't take Bultmann, became a Roman Catholic; that was the only other option in his culture. Good luck to him; happily, most of us have plenty of other options. To say 'wow, I want that stuff, I'd better go to Rome' is like someone suddenly discovering (as I'm told Americans occasionally do -- sorry, cheap shot) that there are other countries in the world and so getting the first big boat he finds in New York to take him there . . . when there were plenty of planes lined up and waiting at JFK. Rome is a big, splendid, dusty old ocean liner, with lots of grand cabins, and, at present, quite a fine captain and some excellent officers -- but also quite a few rooms in need of repair. Yes, it may take you places, but it's slow and you might get seasick from time to time. And the navigators have been told that they must never acknowledge when they've been going in the wrong direction . . .

e. I spent three very happy weeks as the Anglican observer at the Vatican's Synod of Bishops last October. They were talking about the Bible: about how for so long they have more or less banned the laity from reading or studying it, and how now they want to change all that, to insist that every Catholic man, woman, child, cat and dog should have the Bible in their own mother tongue and be taught to read it, study it, pray with it, individually and together. Hallelujah! Who knows what might happen. Question: why did nobody say this in 1525? If they had, we'd have been saved a lot of bother. Let's engage cheerfully in as much discussion with our Roman friends as we can. They are among my best ecumenical conversation partners, and some of them are among my dear friends. But let's not imagine that a renewed biblical theology will mean we find ourselves saying 'you guys were right after all' just at the point where, not explicitly but actually, they are saying that to us . . .
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Sorry To hear this ...
The Anglican faith has always been an exceptionally broad church. with many styles of Worship.
However it is very much worship based rather than fiercely dogmatic.
Right from its inception its worship was based on the Catholic one, at a later time the puritans came into the ascendancy and all religious imagery was lost. Since then there have been individual congregations following both of those styles and every thing in between.

There was a time when heretical thought was dealt with very severely, Today few priests would even ask a parishioner what they believed.

In the Church of England we are on the same path as the American Anglicans and Episcopalians.
Some bishops allow their priests to bless Gay partnerships, Others do not. Some allow Priests to live openly in Gay relationships Others do not.

On this particular Question I have become accepting that God Loves us all, and Gays no less than the others. I have also come to believe that Sex acts and sexuality are not Sins in them selves, but would only be so if they harm others.

Too long has Christianity been hung up on Sex as the Major concern. This was certainly not the case in the early church, Nor was it given high priority by Jesus.

So what has changed? In the middle ages the Roman Church Saw Christian marriage as a way to dominate their flock, they did this by emphasizing the Sin of sexuality, and the sole right of priests to intercede for forgiveness.

To day Contraception has changed the nature of the harm that sexual liaisons cause. Though there are obviously times when sinful harm is done.

Adultery is usually harmful,fornication sometimes, Rape always. Homosexual acts sometimes, masturbation probably never. The sin is not in the act itself but the harm it does.

The Roman Church has always had dogmatic views about sex. Anglicans have been prepared to be more forgiving.

I would never let My love of the Anglican faith be spoiled by my understanding of a single issue.
It is not important what the views or sins of priest are, all the offices he presides over are valid.

You may fell uncomfortable attending services led by a particular priest, this is certainly more an Issue for you rather than the church.

I have moved to new congregations simply because I have not felt at home.
One church comes to mind where the services were packed but no one seemed to be at home.
The worship seemed hollow. I quickly moved.

I have never had a problem with women priests, since attending a Lutheran church in Germany in the 50's, Nor will I have a problem accepting women Bishops.

I believe this is more a cultural issue rather than a religious one.
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
Well, it seems that there's really no place for me to go within the Anglican Church as an orthodox Christian -- at least in my diocese. As a result, I've left the church. Essentially, I had a short conversation with the rector of the church, asking him whether he performs same-sex blessings. Now, the conversation was short, and neither of us had the time at the moment to discuss the matter further. But his answer was "Well, the issue hasn't presented itself to us because no member of our congregation has asked for such a blessing. So we've never had to ask the bishop permission to perform it." So I took it that the church was, at this point, sitting on the fence. Given the situation in our diocese, I figured that was fair enough.

And I have to say, Anglo-Catholic liturgy is deep and meaningful, so on that level I was totally hooked. I also appreciated that the church performs mass every day and also conducts morning and evening prayer every day. So it's a worshipful community. I also liked that, so perhaps I read into the rector's response more favorably than I ought to have done.

Anyway, last Sunday the church offered a sabattical commissioning rite, and during the rite it was made clear that the priest was openly gay. Now the rector's answer seemed a bit more evasive. In any case, I have discontinued my participation with that church.

But what's a faithful Anglican to do? I mean, Anglicanism is all about the "via media". That is, we're catholic but not Roman; reformed but not schismatic. But if we're catholic, we must cling to traditional ethics and submit to the rulings of the ecumenical councils. That means both we must affirm the sinfulness of homosexual behavior (yet not treat it any differently than any other sexual sin) AND, even if your diocese performs same-sex unions or whatever, you must not break away from the diocese and seek "alternative episcopal oversight." But in my diocese, we perform same-sex blessings. Those churches who protest against this have sought foreign episcopal oversight. It's a mess. In other words, in my diocese, there's nothing particularly Anglican about the Anglican church anymore.

There's one (and only one) church in our diocese where traditional Christianity is affirmed and yet they've not broken from the bishop. But there's nothing about this church's worship that's particularly Anglican, either. It uses little of the liturgy that makes Anglicanism distinct from other evangelical expressions. So again, what's the point of going there as opposed to the Baptist church or whatever?

It's a shame because I really do love Anglicanism. I'd like to stick with them through the current crisis, but I don't think I can do that. Certainly, my wife (who has a much stronger Protestant attitude than me) has "had enough." So, with regret, I have ended my participation with the Anglican Church.

If the Church somehow manages to get past the current crisis in North America (the crisis in Anglicanism is pretty much focussed on North America -- the other provinces aren't affected by it), perhaps I'll return. But the Anglican Church will have to demonstrate that they truly do represent a via media in North America.


You could actually go deeper into the mystical esoteric contemplative aspect of Christianity.... where worrying about sexuality is superflous....
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
You could actually go deeper into the mystical esoteric contemplative aspect of Christianity.... where worrying about sexuality is superflous....

Except that in Christianity, sexuality is not superfluous because it is not superfluous to our humanness. We are sexual beings, and a spirituality that attempts to deny or distort that is simply not authentically human spirituality.
 
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