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Salvation before the Jesus

JAFulkers

New Member
Hello all! I'm new to the forum!

I have been thinking lately about the doctrine of salvation.
If we are saved by accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Savior and committing to serve him for the remainder of our lives (for which there is decent scriptural backing)... How was salvation achieved by people in Old Testament times? I'm not seeing much in the Old Testament as to how they were saved, or at least a correlation to our modern beliefs...

Please help!
Thanks!
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Hello all! I'm new to the forum!

Welcome. :)

I have been thinking lately about the doctrine of salvation.
If we are saved by accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Savior and committing to serve him for the remainder of our lives (for which there is decent scriptural backing)... How was salvation achieved by people in Old Testament times? I'm not seeing much in the Old Testament as to how they were saved, or at least a correlation to our modern beliefs...

Please help!
Thanks!

My first point would be to ask what you understand salvation to mean?

As our Jewish friend has stated, Jews had no concept of salvation, so what is it that Christians are being saved from? And to whom was salvation offered?

The apostle Paul sheds some light on this question......in speaking of the pre-Christian men and women of faith, he said:

Mounce Interlinear
Hebrews 11:13-16...."These all died in faith, without receiving the fulfillment of the promises, but they saw them from a distance and greeted them. They acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles in the land. For those who speak in such a way make it clear that they are seeking a land of their own. If they had been referring to that country from which they had set out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they were longing for a better homeland, that is, a heavenly one. For this reason God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city to receive them."

Since heaven was never promised to pre-Christian worshippers of God, we have to ask what it was that these faithful ones were looking forward to? What is this 'heavenly city, that God prepared for them?

The apostle John tells us.....

Revelation 21:2-5....."And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready like a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more, mourning and crying and pain will be no more, for the former things have passed away.” And the one seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And he said, “Write it down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

The future that Jews were looking forward to was Messiah's kingdom, which they expected to be established on earth.
The parting words of the apostles as Jesus was ascending to heaven confirms that this was their expectation even after three and a half years with their teacher.

Acts 1:6..."So when they had come together, they asked him, saying, “Lord, is this the time when you will restore the kingdom to Israel?”

Their expectation as Jews was that the kingdom of their Messiah was going to be established on earth at that time.

It wasn't until the outpouring of the holy spirit at Pentecost that Christ's disciples discerned by holy spirit that their destination was heaven, not earth. But the invitation to go to heaven was only open to those received into the "new covenant". Those who were under the old covenant entertained a different hope. Their hope was on earth, whereas a limited number of Christ's disciples were invited to be "kings and priests" to rule with him in heaven. (Rev 20:6)

How do we know this? Consider: Those who go to heaven are appointed as both "kings and priests" so they would need subjects over whom to rule (John identifies these as "man", humans) and because they require the services of priests, they must also be sinners. Those who go to heaven are no longer in their sinful flesh, so they would not be required to serve as priests for one another and kings do not rule over other kings.

There are clearly two destinations for God's worshippers. The majority of mankind will receive a resurrection to life on earth as subjects of the kingdom (John 5:28, 29) whilst the ones chosen for life in heaven will rule in the kingdom.

Men and women of faith will all have opportunity to serve God in either the earthly realm of God's kingdom or the heavenly one. The difference between the two groups is established by Jesus himself.....

Matthew 5:5, 8...."Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God."


Since the Bible tells us that "no man may see [God] and live" (Ex33:20) it is evident that the "meek who inherit the earth" are not the ones who will "see God".

This is what my studies of the scriptures have revealed.
 
Hello all! I'm new to the forum!

I have been thinking lately about the doctrine of salvation.
If we are saved by accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Savior and committing to serve him for the remainder of our lives (for which there is decent scriptural backing)... How was salvation achieved by people in Old Testament times? I'm not seeing much in the Old Testament as to how they were saved, or at least a correlation to our modern beliefs...

Please help!
Thanks!

This is an extremely important question. The Bible has a lot to say about salvation and forgiveness. There is a whole book about this in the Old Testament: Leviticus. Salvation was obtained through animal sacrifice....a pure, spotless animal, without defect taking the place of the sinner and therefore making him pure again...but only until the next sin. Therefore, constant animal sacrifices were needed, over and over again. However, Jews also needed to follow the Laws of God. Sacrifice without a pure contrite heart was not acceptable in God's sight. Jesus came to do away with animal sacrifice because he became the lamb of God who took/ takes away the sins of the world. Hebrews is the New Testament counterpart to Leviticus. There is a summary of Leviticus and Hebrews in Hebrews 9: 16-28. This is important for you to read and understand. God bless.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Hello all! I'm new to the forum!

I have been thinking lately about the doctrine of salvation.
If we are saved by accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Savior and committing to serve him for the remainder of our lives (for which there is decent scriptural backing)... How was salvation achieved by people in Old Testament times? I'm not seeing much in the Old Testament as to how they were saved, or at least a correlation to our modern beliefs...

Please help!
Thanks!
Here's what I believe:

There actually isn't much in the Bible to tell us how a person who has never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ can be saved. And when you stop to think about it, this group of people is enormous. It not only includes people in Old Testament times, but people in New Testament times and even today. It took many, many years for the gospel to be spread to parts of Asia and Africa, for instance. What kind of a loving God would condemn anyone to eternal torment simply for having had the misfortune to be born at the wrong time or in the wrong place to even have had a shot at "meeting the requirements for salvation."

The New Testament does mention Jesus Christ (in spirit form) visiting the spirits of those who were "in prison" during the three-day period His body lay in the tomb. They were "in prison" because of the way in which they had led their lives and because they knew of no way by which they could be redeemed. He taught them His gospel, enabling them to accept it and repent of their sins. They did this after their bodies had died and were lying in the ground rotting. Jesus also told the repentant thief who hung next to Him on the cross that He would see him that day "in paradise." Three days later, when He first saw Mary near the garden tomb, He told her not to touch Him because He hadn't yet ascended to His Father in Heaven. "Paradise" and "Heaven" are not the same place. The thief wasn't in Heaven when Jesus saw Him, because Jesus hadn't been to Heaven. He was in paradise.

The earliest Christians believed in a doctrine which was later lost entirely or which men changed over time. They believed that when a person died, even though his dead body ceased to be able to think, feel or have any awareness at all, his spirit left his body and went to an intermediate realm (neither Heaven nor Hell) where it would await the resurrection. This place -- we'll call it "the Spirit World" was comprised of spirits who were "in prison" and of spirits who were "in paradise." This is the place Christ visited after His death but before His resurrection. I believe that the Spirit World exists today. Certainly there is every bit as much of a reason for its existence now as there was when Jesus went there, and the Bible never even implies that it has been done away with.

The few relevant verses in the Bible, ancient records of the earliest Christian beliefs and practices, and modern revelation tells us that God has made it possible for every human being who has ever lived or will yet live to hear, understand and accept the gospel of Jesus Christ before the Day of Judgment comes. For us, this time was during our mortal lives. For many others, it will be in the "Spirit World" as they await the resurrection. Jesus isn't personally there now, but His visit made possible that the gulf between the prison and paradise be made passable. Today, those spirits in paradise are spreading the gospel message to those in prison, making it possible for them to be released from their prison and continue to await the resurrection in paradise.
 

JAFulkers

New Member
Eliab ben Benjamin,
Thanks for your reply. I did not know that "salvation" or "original sin" was such a Christian concept. But this only bolsters my frustration with the original question to my fellow Christians.. Why is there such little OT discussion on salvation as we learn it today? If it is so important, surely God and OT prophets would have had more to say about it. .?


Tlaloc,
Thanks for the Wikipedia article. If Christ visited hell to redeem people after he died, does he still do that today?
 

JAFulkers

New Member
Katzpur,
Thanks for your post! I agree there are a lot of people who are born in the wrong place at the wrong time. But you say it's "misfortune" that they are born that way. Is it misfortune, or did God put them there? ..and if we say God put them there, then is He responsible for their lack of ability to be saved? You say they can be saved by learning about Christ after death, which is a Very Mormon concept, and it is very interesting... but what do born again Christians say?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Katzpur,
Thanks for your post!
You're very welcome.

I agree there are a lot of people who are born in the wrong place at the wrong time. But you say it's "misfortune" that they are born that way. Is it misfortune, or did God put them there? ..and if we say God put them there, then is He responsible for their lack of ability to be saved?
I used the word "misfortune" because it truly would be a misfortune if God had not prepared a means for them to be saved by the same faith in Christ that saves everyone else.

You say they can be saved by learning about Christ after death, which is a Very Mormon concept, and it is very interesting... but what do born again Christians say?
Two quick comments: First, there is substantial evidence that while this is a Mormon concept, it was once a concept embraced by Christianity as a whole and taught by respected early Church fathers. Second, Mormons do believe in being "born again." We may not refer to ourselves as "born-again Christians," but we do believe strongly in this concept. In the Book of Mormon, it says, "And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters." (That's just one of several verses I could quote).
 

roger1440

I do stuff
You are most welcome, and still i am curious, "Saved from what ? "

If we place our trust in God, he will protect us and defeat our enemies. For God to comfort us we must welcome him with open arms. In doing so, he will protect us from evil.

Isa 12:1 In that day you will say: "I will praise you, LORD. Although you were angry with me, your anger has turned away and you have comforted me.
Isa 12:2 Surely God is my salvation; I will trust and not be afraid. The LORD, the LORD himself, is my strength and my defense; he has become my salvation."
 

FaithWithinMe

I Have Faith!
Here's what I believe:

There actually isn't much in the Bible to tell us how a person who has never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ can be saved. And when you stop to think about it, this group of people is enormous. It not only includes people in Old Testament times, but people in New Testament times and even today. It took many, many years for the gospel to be spread to parts of Asia and Africa, for instance. What kind of a loving God would condemn anyone to eternal torment simply for having had the misfortune to be born at the wrong time or in the wrong place to even have had a shot at "meeting the requirements for salvation."

The New Testament does mention Jesus Christ (in spirit form) visiting the spirits of those who were "in prison" during the three-day period His body lay in the tomb. They were "in prison" because of the way in which they had led their lives and because they knew of no way by which they could be redeemed. He taught them His gospel, enabling them to accept it and repent of their sins. They did this after their bodies had died and were lying in the ground rotting. Jesus also told the repentant thief who hung next to Him on the cross that He would see him that day "in paradise." Three days later, when He first saw Mary near the garden tomb, He told her not to touch Him because He hadn't yet ascended to His Father in Heaven. "Paradise" and "Heaven" are not the same place. The thief wasn't in Heaven when Jesus saw Him, because Jesus hadn't been to Heaven. He was in paradise.

The earliest Christians believed in a doctrine which was later lost entirely or which men changed over time. They believed that when a person died, even though his dead body ceased to be able to think, feel or have any awareness at all, his spirit left his body and went to an intermediate realm (neither Heaven nor Hell) where it would await the resurrection. This place -- we'll call it "the Spirit World" was comprised of spirits who were "in prison" and of spirits who were "in paradise." This is the place Christ visited after His death but before His resurrection. I believe that the Spirit World exists today. Certainly there is every bit as much of a reason for its existence now as there was when Jesus went there, and the Bible never even implies that it has been done away with.

The few relevant verses in the Bible, ancient records of the earliest Christian beliefs and practices, and modern revelation tells us that God has made it possible for every human being who has ever lived or will yet live to hear, understand and accept the gospel of Jesus Christ before the Day of Judgment comes. For us, this time was during our mortal lives. For many others, it will be in the "Spirit World" as they await the resurrection. Jesus isn't personally there now, but His visit made possible that the gulf between the prison and paradise be made passable. Today, those spirits in paradise are spreading the gospel message to those in prison, making it possible for them to be released from their prison and continue to await the resurrection in paradise.

Can you please provide me with a chapter or verse talking about "paradise"? Your response really intrigued me! I want to learn more!!!
 

JAFulkers

New Member
Yeah, Katzpur what more can you share? You had a lot of interesting concepts.
There are definitely billions and billions of people who never get to hear of Jesus. It has always bothered me...

Thanks FaithWithinMe for looking into this!
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
There are definitely billions and billions of people who never get to hear of Jesus. It has always bothered me...

Its funny but when you eliminate the teaching of the immortality of the human soul, which is not taught anywhere in scripture (it is missing entirely from the Hebrew scriptures and not taught by Jesus or the apostles) the mystery is solved. When humans die they return to the dust, just as God told Adam. There was no afterlife in the spirit realm mentioned at all in Genesis.

The penalty for eating the forbidden fruit was death...not continuing life somewhere else. "For dust you are and to dust you will return" is all God told Adam. (Gen 3:17) If there was a destination other than what God stated, then why was Adam not warned about it? Since there are no spirits of the dead to float off anywhere, they are all where the apostle Paul said they were....the same place where Jesus said Lazarus was before he raised him from the dead. He was simply said to be "asleep" (John 11:11-14; 1 Thess 4:13, 14)

The Bible teaches that Jesus will call all of the dead out of their tombs, both the righteous and the unrighteous. (John 5:28, 20) So even the unrighteous will get a chance to prove themselves in a period of judgment under the rule of God's kingdom.

When Jesus went to "preach to the spirits in prison", he was not preaching to the spirits of dead people....there are no spirits of dead people to preach to. The spirit realm is inhabited by spirits both good and bad. None of them were former humans.

Peter said...
"For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring you to God,
after being put to death in the fleshly realm but made alive in the spiritual realm." (1 Pet 3:18-20)
19 In that state He also went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20 who in the past were disobedient, when God patiently waited in the days of Noah while an ark was being prepared. In it a few—that is, eight people—were saved through water." (1 Pet 3:18-20 Holman)


Look at Peter's words.....he does not specify when Christ preached to these disobedient "spirits in prison", only that he went there in his spiritual state after his resurrection. He was not alive somewhere during the three days his body was in the tomb....he was actually dead. He said that he would be 'in the heart of the earth three days and nights, just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish'. (Matt 12:38-40)

However, he does identify who these spirits were. He said: "they were disobedient long ago when God patiently waited in the days of Noah as an ark was being constructed." These are not the spirits of humans who were wicked in Noah's day...these were the disobedient angels, who after the flood, returned to the spirit realm where they were thrown into a state of spiritual restraint called "Tartarus". This word is often mistranslated "Hell".

Peter said..."4 For if God didn’t spare the angels who sinned but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment; 5 and if He didn’t spare the ancient world, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others, when He brought a flood on the world of the ungodly..."
(2 Pet 2:4-6 Holman)

It is because people read into these accounts things that the Bible does not teach that they get confused.

No one will be penalized for living in the wrong time period or in the wrong country. Those who sleep in death, both righteous and unrighteous have paid sin's wages and will be resurrected with a clean slate for a fresh start. Those alive when Jesus comes as judge will have had ample opportunity, like the people of Noah's day, to take appropriate action regarding the coming of God's kingdom. (Matt 24:36-39) The message of salvation has been preached in all the earth in preparation for the the end to come as Jesus said it must. (Matt 24:14)

We must be ready.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Can you please provide me with a chapter or verse talking about "paradise"? Your response really intrigued me! I want to learn more!!!
Hi, Faith. This is for you, too...

Yeah, Katzpur what more can you share? You had a lot of interesting concepts.
There are definitely billions and billions of people who never get to hear of Jesus. It has always bothered me...
JAFulkers, in your OP, you said that "there is decent scriptural backing" for the belief that salvation is contingent upon accepting our accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Savior. I would agree with you that the scriptures are pretty clear about that. In fact, in John 14:6, Christ himself is quoted as having said, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." If we're going to take Him at his word, we're going to have to acknowledge that "no man" means "no man"; it doesn't mean "except for those who never had the opportunity to hear of me or accept my gospel."

As was pointed out, the Bible really doesn't give us any straightforward, explicit statements about what's going to happen to the young woman who lived and died in 3rd century China or the man who spent his entire life in a village in the African jungle in the 7th century. These people were real and they were every bit as loved by their Father in Heaven as you and I. The thing is, we can't make the Bible say something it doesn't say. I could provide quotes from early Christian sources other than the Bible and I could provide quotes from LDS sources (since we believe God has revealed more on this subject than is in the Bible). But there really wouldn't be any point in my doing so unless the two of you were open to the possibility that the Bible is not our sole source of truth.

I will mention one other biblical passage I believe to be relevant to this dilemma. In Matthew 16:18, Christ told Peter that the "gates of hell" would not prevail against His church. To a first-century Jewish-Christian (e.g. Peter and the other Apostles), the phrase "the gates of hell" would not have had the sinister connotations attached to it that the phrase has taken on today. "The gates of hell" would be nothing more than a reference to the entrance to the realm of the deceased, the place where the spirits of the dead resided until the Day of Judgment. It wouldn't have even entered Peter's mind to think that Jesus was saying anything at all about "the Devil." I believe Christ was saying that His gospel would live on beyond the grave and that death wouldn't prevent people from hearing it. I believe that's how Peter would have understood His words.
 
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