Salvation

[Walter and Debbie]

Monday 6-17-24 2nd. Day Of The Weekly Cycle, Sivan 10 5784 91st. Spring Day

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What Is Salvation?​

Many people refer to themselves as saved. What is salvation? Is it a place, a destination, a state of mind—or what? What does the Bible say about being saved?

Love, Walter And Debbie

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

< yawn>

preach elsewhere​

</yawn>

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What Is Salvation?​

Many people refer to themselves as saved. What is salvation? Is it a place, a destination, a state of mind—or what? What does the Bible say about being saved?

Salvation means something very different to Jews than to Christians. If you look only in the Tanakh and not in the New Testament, being saved refers to a very earthly, very practicle form of salvation. God saves David from the army surrounding him. God saves Israel from slavery in Egypt. There is nothing in the Tanakh about saving us from our sins.

 

[Kenny]

Monday 6-17-24 2nd. Day Of The Weekly Cycle, Sivan 10 5784 91st. Spring Day

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What Is Salvation?​

Many people refer to themselves as saved. What is salvation? Is it a place, a destination, a state of mind—or what? What does the Bible say about being saved?

Love, Walter And Debbie

I see salvation as a reuniting of God with His creation overcoming the effects of death in every area of our lives. Restoring mankind to his original state as much it is possible with the earth still being cursed awaiting the final position of salvation which is a new body,

All within the context of my signature.

 

[Kenny]

Salvation means something very different to Jews than to Christians. If you look only in the Tanakh and not in the New Testament, being saved refers to a very earthly, very practicle form of salvation. God saves David from the army surrounding him. God saves Israel from slavery in Egypt. There is nothing in the Tanakh about saving us from our sins.

In what way? Could not Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us have an understanding of being saved from our sins?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

In what way? Could not Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us have an understanding of being saved from our sins?

No, it's really not the same thing Christians talk about. Christians have this idea that sinning means going to hell (with exceptions noted). Thus it necessitates a spiritual savior to get any mercy and prevent that. That's not what you find in the Tanakh. Rather, you have a God of mercy, who forgives all who repent. Righteousness for us is not being perfect like Christians claim, but repenting when we sin. Proverbs says, "A righteous man falls seven times, and rises up again."

 

[Kenny]

No, it's really not the same thing Christians talk about. Christians have this idea that sinning means going to hell (with exceptions noted). Thus it necessitates a spiritual savior to get any mercy and prevent that. That's not what you find in the Tanakh. Rather, you have a God of mercy, who forgives all who repent. Righteousness for us is not being perfect like Christians claim, but repenting when we sin. Proverbs says, "A righteous man falls seven times, and rises up again."

So what does Psalm 103 mean? “As far as the east is from the west”?

Repentance is part of the message that we preach. But I also found this:
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Maybe there are degrees of righteousness? There are many righteous men and women in the TaNaKh - but maybe as compared to God’s righteousness our righteousness is as filthy rags and our lips are unclean without God’s touch of salvation?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So what does Psalm 103 mean? “As far as the east is from the west”?

I alreaedy addressed this. It is because in Judaism God is merciful, requiring only repentence. He does not need a human sacrifice to enable that forgiveness. God is perfectly capable of forgiving on his own terms.

Repentance is part of the message that we preach. But I also found this:
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

This would be the use of hyperbole to make a point. It's no different than Jesus exagerating when he says to call no man father, or that if you hate, you are a murderer.

Maybe there are degrees of righteousness? There are many righteous men and women in the TaNaKh - but maybe as compared to God’s righteousness our righteousness is as filthy rags and our lips are unclean without God’s touch of salvation?

My interfaith zoom group discussed this very thing this afternoon. When Christians speak of "sinners" they are referring to abolutely everyone. It's different for us. When we say "sinner" or "wicked" we are speaking of a very small minority of humanity. They don't repent, becauase they feel no guilt. For such a small group, they do an outrageous amount of harm to others.

On the other end of the spectrum there are tzadikim, those who are uncommonly good and self sacrificing for the sake of others.

But the majority of mankind is simply in the middle. These are the nominally moral. They have character flaws, and are prone to make excuses why an immoral action is really okay in their case. But they genuinely feel bad when they do wrong.

 

[Kenny]

I alreaedy addressed this. It is because in Judaism God is merciful, requiring only repentence. He does not need a human sacrifice to enable that forgiveness. God is perfectly capable of forgiving on his own terms.

As it is said, 2 Jewish people will have 3 views. I would have to disagree:

14 Adonai, God, said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all livestock and wild animals. You will crawl on your belly and eat dust as long as you live. 15 I will put animosity between you and the woman, and between your descendant and her descendant; he will bruise your head, and you will bruise his heel.”

This would be the use of hyperbole to make a point. It's no different than Jesus exagerating when he says to call no man father, or that if you hate, you are a murderer.

Again,, I think that is a viewpoint. I see it as Jesus giving a God standard verses a Talmudic viewpoint. As it is said, “
Isaiah 55:9
“As high as the sky is above the earth are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

My interfaith zoom group discussed this very thing this afternoon. When Christians speak of "sinners" they are referring to abolutely everyone. It's different for us. When we say "sinner" or "wicked" we are speaking of a very small minority of humanity. They don't repent, becauase they feel no guilt. For such a small group, they do an outrageous amount of harm to others.

I think we are both right. There is a small group that are “wicked” - I say small in comparison to those who are not wicked but they still amount to a sizable amount of people. We are talking about our spiritual state. Did you notice that we don’t have to teach children to do wrong? They learn it all by themselves. Why? Because they are spiritually separated from God. I’m not saying that there is no innocence, there is, but it doesn’t remove their capacity to do wrong.

On the other end of the spectrum there are tzadikim, those who are uncommonly good and self sacrificing for the sake of others.

But aren’t we comparing ourselves with ourselves? Why was it necessary for the High Priest to go through a process of washing of water and the shedding of blood to come into the Holy of Holies? Because compared to God, He is Holy and man is not.

But the majority of mankind is simply in the middle. These are the nominally moral. They have character flaws, and are prone to make excuses why an immoral action is really okay in their case. But they genuinely feel bad when they do wrong.

Yes, that is true.

 

[Eddi]

in Judaism God is merciful, requiring only repentence. He does not need a human sacrifice to enable that forgiveness. God is perfectly capable of forgiving on his own terms

I like that that's good

I also believe that

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I enjoyed your post. I really only have a couple of comments.

Did you notice that we don’t have to teach children to do wrong? They learn it all by themselves. Why? Because they are spiritually separated from God. I’m not saying that there is no innocence, there is, but it doesn’t remove their capacity to do wrong.

I'm not sure how kids singing spontaeously without being taught has anything to do with being spiritually separated from God. I view singing as an instrinically good and beautiful thing. If any argument is to be made, it is that this spontaneous singing is evidence that we are still connected to God, and that there is innate goodness in us.

But aren’t we comparing ourselves with ourselves?

Yes, we are comparing ourselves with ourselves. Comparing ourselves to God makes no sense. That would be like comparing algae to an elephant.

 

[Kenny]

I enjoyed your post. I really only have a couple of comments.

I'm not sure how kids singing spontaeously without being taught has anything to do with being spiritually separated from God. I view singing as an instrinically good and beautiful thing. If any argument is to be made, it is that this spontaneous singing is evidence that we are still connected to God, and that there is innate goodness in us.

Absolutely! And i think both are correct. Our DNA is to be connected to God. Yet the picture of Adam and Eve was that they got disconnected to their original design and from one generation to the next we had perfect love to a brother murdering his brother. Who taught him that?

Yes, we are comparing ourselves with ourselves. Comparing ourselves to God makes no sense. That would be like comparing algae to an elephant.

OK… we differ here.

Leviticus 11:44
For I am the Lord your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy. And you shall not make yourselves unclean with any of the swarming things that swarm on the earth.

Sounds like a God comparison to me.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Absolutely! And i think both are correct. Our DNA is to be connected to God. Yet the picture of Adam and Eve was that they got disconnected to their original design and from one generation to the next we had perfect love to a brother murdering his brother. Who taught him that?

If you believe in a literal, historical Adam and Eve, I'm fine with that. But since we are sharing, I should say that I have a very different take. If I could sum up the history of homo sapiens it might go this way...

Go back long, long ago, before we were homo sapiens, before we were even primates, we were governed entirely by basic animal instincts: stay alive, procreate, socialize, avoid pain, accumulate food... At this time, we were in harmony with nature, with each other, with ourselves, and with God.

Somewhere in our evolutionary past, we began to develop a moral sense, a conscience. This is largely based on two instincts: empathy, and a sense of fairness. I think we evolved these two traits well before becoming homo sapiens, because you find both in other primates such as chimpanzees, meaning it would have existed in the last common ancestor we shared.

The problem arose that sometimes our conscience would tell us to do one thing, and our animal instincts would tell us to do something else. The harmony we used to have was destroyed. Now we had conflict with nature, with others, with ourselves and with God. There would even be the first "sin"-- the first time a primate had that inner conflict, and consciously chose to placate their animal instinct despite the protest of their conscience. I think it is very fitting to refer to this as "the Fall."

I think that the myth of Adam and Eve is a wonderful, wonderful metaphor for this fall. In the story, it is eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that precipitates the fall. How apropos!

 

[Brian2]

Salvation means something very different to Jews than to Christians. If you look only in the Tanakh and not in the New Testament, being saved refers to a very earthly, very practicle form of salvation. God saves David from the army surrounding him. God saves Israel from slavery in Egypt. There is nothing in the Tanakh about saving us from our sins.

And yet God said that Adam and Eve would die for their sin and humans keep on sinning and dying. Then sin and God's judgement and forgiveness is seen as so important throughout the Tanakh.
Salvation from death seems pretty basic in the Tanakh even though it can be lost amongst the other things that us humans need salvation from in this short life that is now lived out of paradise.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And yet God said that Adam and Eve would die for their sin and humans keep on sinning and dying. Then sin and God's judgement and forgiveness is seen as so important throughout the Tanakh.
Salvation from death seems pretty basic in the Tanakh even though it can be lost amongst the other things that us humans need salvation from in this short life that is now lived out of paradise.

I'm not hear to change you mind or disparage your beliefs. My answer to your question is pretty simple: we all die. There is no such thing as salvation from death.

 

[Kenny]

If you believe in a literal, historical Adam and Eve, I'm fine with that. But since we are sharing, I should say that I have a very different take. If I could sum up the history of homo sapiens it might go this way...

Go back long, long ago, before we were homo sapiens, before we were even primates, we were governed entirely by basic animal instincts: stay alive, procreate, socialize, avoid pain, accumulate food... At this time, we were in harmony with nature, with each other, with ourselves, and with God.

Somewhere in our evolutionary past, we began to develop a moral sense, a conscience. This is largely based on two instincts: empathy, and a sense of fairness. I think we evolved these two traits well before becoming homo sapiens, because you find both in other primates such as chimpanzees, meaning it would have existed in the last common ancestor we shared.

The problem arose that sometimes our conscience would tell us to do one thing, and our animal instincts would tell us to do something else. The harmony we used to have was destroyed. Now we had conflict with nature, with others, with ourselves and with God. There would even be the first "sin"-- the first time a primate had that inner conflict, and consciously chose to placate their animal instinct despite the protest of their conscience. I think it is very fitting to refer to this as "the Fall."

I think that the myth of Adam and Eve is a wonderful, wonderful metaphor for this fall. In the story, it is eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that precipitates the fall. How apropos!

Interesting...

A question that will be connected to conscience… do you believe that a Messiah is coming? And what is a conscience?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Interesting...

A question that will be connected to conscience… do you believe that a Messiah is coming? And what is a conscience?

The Conservative movement of Judaism to which I belong does teach about the messianic age, and the messiah, but its take is a little more symbolic than that of Orthodox Judaism. It emphasizes the human role in bringing about the messianic era. "The Messiah" symbolizes the collective effort and moral responsibility to create a better society.

A conscience is that part of the mind that makes moral decisions. Sometimes, a decision will be thought out over a long period of time, and the individual will draw on multiple sources such as religious training, advice from others, etc. But most moral decisions are made on the fly as moral dilemmas arise. In those cases, they are decided instinctually, with the conscious mind fabricating a "reason" after the decision was already made. As I said earlier, the backbone of the conscience is empathy and a sense of fairness. We can talk about this in more detail if you want, but I don't want to unnecessarily bore you.

It is also true the conscience exists on a spectrum. There are some individuals who are exceptionally empathic and wouldn't harm a fly, who go out of their way to help others. On the flip side, there are humans that have no conscience, and who do an inordinate amount of harm.

 

[Kenny]

The Conservative movement of Judaism to which I belong does teach about the messianic age, and the messiah, but its take is a little more symbolic than that of Orthodox Judaism. It emphasizes the human role in bringing about the messianic era. "The Messiah" symbolizes the collective effort and moral responsibility to create a better society.

Interesting.

A conscience is that part of the mind that makes moral decisions. Sometimes, a decision will be thought out over a long period of time, and the individual will draw on multiple sources such as religious training, advice from others, etc. But most moral decisions are made on the fly as moral dilemmas arise. In those cases, they are decided instinctually, with the conscious mind fabricating a "reason" after the decision was already made. As I said earlier, the backbone of the conscience is empathy and a sense of fairness. We can talk about this in more detail if you want, but I don't want to unnecessarily bore you.

Not boring at all.

If, as you said, "At this time, we were in harmony with nature, with each other, with ourselves, and with God.” - why couldn’t the conscience be placed by God in creation as we were in harmony with all things?

It is also true the conscience exists on a spectrum. There are some individuals who are exceptionally empathic and wouldn't harm a fly, who go out of their way to help others. On the flip side, there are humans that have no conscience, and who do an inordinate amount of harm.

Agreed! Although I would look at it as “their conscience has been violated by themselves so much their conscience has become calloused” - but that is just my take.

 

[YoursTrue]

Monday 6-17-24 2nd. Day Of The Weekly Cycle, Sivan 10 5784 91st. Spring Day

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What Is Salvation?​

Many people refer to themselves as saved. What is salvation? Is it a place, a destination, a state of mind—or what? What does the Bible say about being saved?

Love, Walter And Debbie

Good question. Let's take salvation. So if a person is saved I understand it to mean he is set aside, or preserved in a good way. If I buy some canned goods, let's say, I might 'save some' for later. Or put them aside. And let's say in another example there was a car rushing down the road and someone was standing in a place not good. A person came along and made sure the other was safe, away from the rushing car. In a way, he "saved" the other from possible disaster. It's more than that, though. Before I knew what the path that God wants His people to follow, I did all sorts of things. Now, of course, I would not do them. (But I'm still not perfect...) Some might say they're saved but go on doing what the Bible says they shouldn't be doing. There's more, as @IndigoChild5559 mentioned a few other things, perhaps to be discussed.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If, as you said, "At this time, we were in harmony with nature, with each other, with ourselves, and with God.” - why couldn’t the conscience be placed by God in creation as we were in harmony with all things?

All the traits that we have today as human beings IMHO developed via the process of evolution. There are some who believe that God tweaks evolution. I'm more of the opinion that God simply designed the laws of nature, and then just let them run their course.

I have a lot of speculations on why and how conscience evolved, but nothing nailed down. This is mostly because modern Scientific Method is a very recent thing, and we are still so very ignorant of most things in the universe. Let me share two different ideas.

The first is that the laws of morality, just like the laws of physics, may be built into the fabric of the universe. But just like it took time to evolve the kind of intelligence necessary to explore electro-magnetism, we needed a certain amount of intelligence and awareness to perceive these laws of morality.

The second is more complicated. There are different kinds of natural selection: individual selection, sex selection, and group selection. In individual selection, selfishness is going to be passed down, because by being selfish we increase our odds of staying alive and passing on our own personal genes. However, in GROUP selection, it is cooperation that increases the odds that a group will survive and be, well, prolific. Thus group selection opts for traits like altruism and fairness. In this respect, a conscience evolved because it contributes to the cooperation of the group.

Agreed! Although I would look at it as “their conscience has been violated by themselves so much their conscience has become calloused” - but that is just my take.

I agree. That is certainly the case for many people. Every time we do a specific good deed, even if hard, it becomes easier and easier. And anytime we do something wrong, it because easier and easier too. I'm sure you are familiar with the Cherokee story of the two wolves, and which one you feed.

In the Torah, this is best taught by the story of Pharaoh. In the first five plagues, Pharaoh hardens his own heart. It is only after that, that God hardens his heart. Clearly, the expression that God hardened Pharaoh's heart refers to the fact that Pharaoh had so habitually said, "No," that he had lost the capacity to say Yes.

But I would also like to add this. There are some people who lack a conscience not because they have numbed it, but because their brains are wired wrong. Like most traits, there are many factors cementing this. Genetics. Epigenetics. Violent trauma. With some, it is clearly being born this way. With others, the inborn biology is exacerbated by life events.

But however they get there, there is a certain syndrome of traits that all seem to come together. They do not have the same fear response as normal people. Nor are they as sensitive to pain. Their ability to control impulses is impaired. They learn to express emotions by mimicking what they see others do, rather than having the inborn ability. And most notoriously, they just don't care when others suffer--no empathy, no remorse. In fact they may be fascinated by the suffering of others.

All of this coming back to say: they have no conscience. They are aware what OTHERS think is wrong. They are aware what the LAW says is wrong. But they have no internal voice that says, "This really IS wrong."

We call them sociopaths. I'm speaking as if they are a clearly differentiated group, but the truth is that they exist on a spectrum, from the jerk who enjoys nothing more than trolling on the internet, to the psychopathic serial killer. They are a very small minority of individuals, but they do most of the harm in this world.

Some are more functional, and have a wide variety of honest work from salesperson to surgeon. Think about it for a second. Who would you rather have operate on you? A nice guy who gets emotional at the site of a cut up body and crumbles under pressure? Or a total jerk who remains calm as a cucumber?

The more serious cases are of course our most notorious criminals. The very intelligent ones sometimes never get caught. About 1% of the population has Antisocial Personality Disorder, and about half of those are considered psychopaths.