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Sam Harris: Science can answer moral Questions

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
What is considered science is not the same in every culture and in every time. Eugenics was supported, scientifically, because it eliminates the bad genes. Science is not an idea that is free of corruption, distortion, and politics, nor is it always accurate, and our ideas of what is correct is highly prone to change, even in a very short time span. What is "scientifically morally right" should receive the same rigorous scrutiny that any source of morality receives.

Eugenics is a practice based from science. The purpose of science is not to take any action, eugenics is a philosophy of science. Science does have an end point believe it or not and medicine for example is a philosophy of science.

Science is an observational methodology not one of action.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Many people seem to be obsessed with science as the secret recipe that will solve and dominate everything and he is one of them with his failed theory. We human beings when confronted with scientific dilemmas should decide what is good for us and what is not, what is moral and what is not.

A psychopath can come with a bunch of scientists who will justify what we may call inhuman acts but if means justify the end then nothing will stop them from doing horrible things because it will eventually lead to the well being of the community as a whole. Mr. Sam made a laughable comparison, would you rather take your morality from the Taliban or from an *expert* in scientific morality like himself of course.

At the end of his presentation the man who came to speak to him on the stage asked him a very good question. What if this woman wanted to cover up herself based on her choice, and what was his answer? he insisted that this is not possible because the girl can never decide for herself in her community what to wear and what not to wear, so assumed that she is definitely oppressed, so even if the girl herself said she is not, he will find out a way to convince her she is brainwashed. This is nonsense. Also when he came up with the picture of both, white mother with her daughter on the beach, and a poor black woman with her child. This is racism and generalization because not all black people are poor and hungry. He could have came up with two white mothers, one rich, and one poor, but it was his intention to make this issue a black and white issue, that he is absolutely right since his theory works on the Taliban.

I'm taking issues with his dishonesty and manipulative nature. What he has presented is not even half scientific. It's all based on misinformation and prejudice.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
What is considered science is not the same in every culture and in every time.

While that is true, it is far less significant that it appears at first, because the scientific method ensures a certain reliability of the knowledge, at least as far as the culture will allow one to have.


Eugenics was supported, scientifically, because it eliminates the bad genes.

I don't think that is really true.


Science is not an idea that is free of corruption, distortion, and politics, nor is it always accurate, and our ideas of what is correct is highly prone to change, even in a very short time span.

Again, that is true... but as Winston Churchill once said of Democracy, it is the worst form of finding knowledge that we know, except for all others that are known.


What is "scientifically morally right" should receive the same rigorous scrutiny that any source of morality receives.

Indeed, it should.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Many people seem to be obsessed with science as the secret recipe that will solve and dominate everything and he is one of them with his failed theory.

While such people exist, the speech makes it clear that he is far from being one of them.

He did not present a theory, either. Just a hypothesis, or even a speculative worldview. It is not failed nor could it be because it is still speculative. It needs quite a lot of parameters and delimitation before it can become falseable and therefore perhaps sustain a theory or several.


We human beings when confronted with scientific dilemmas should decide what is good for us and what is not, what is moral and what is not.

Sure, but what would a scientific dilemma be? I'm not sure I know of any, or what they would be like.


A psychopath can come with a bunch of scientists who will justify what we may call inhuman acts but if means justify the end then nothing will stop them from doing horrible things because it will eventually lead to the well being of the community as a whole. Mr. Sam made a laughable comparison, would you rather take your morality from the Taliban or from an *expert* in scientific morality like himself of course.

Actually - and perhaps this would be cleared if probably not more palatable to you if you read more of his texts on the subject - Sam Harris maintains that we should not hesitate to call immorality and moral mediocrity for what they are.

His view, which I largely agree with in this regard, is that Morality is a cognitive skill and there is, in fact, such a thing as moral intelligence and even moral stupidity and moral genius. It is plenty clear to me that he is indeed correct in proposing that it is so. It takes at least a modicum of cognitive capability to be at all moral or immoral, and the most capable a person is of abstract thought, the higher his or her moral capability and duty.


At the end of his presentation the man who came to speak to him on the stage asked him a very good question. What if this woman wanted to cover up herself based on her choice, and what was his answer? he insisted that this is not possible because the girl can never decide for herself in her community what to wear and what not to wear, so assumed that she is definitely oppressed, so even if the girl herself said she is not, he will find out a way to convince her she is brainwashed. This is nonsense.

That is not quite what he says, though, and the difference is very significant. Mostly, he is reminding us of how questionable choices and preferences can be due to social pressure:

10:57
Well, who are we not to say this? Who are we to pretend that we know so little about human well-being that we have to be non-judgmental about a practice like this? I'm not talking about voluntary wearing of a veil -- women should be able to wear whatever they want, as far as I'm concerned. But what does voluntary mean in a community where, when a girl gets raped, her father's first impulse, rather often, is to murder her out of shame?
11:31
Just let that fact detonate in your brain for a minute: Your daughter gets raped, and what you want to do is kill her. What are the chances that represents a peak of human flourishing?


Also when he came up with the picture of both, white mother with her daughter on the beach, and a poor black woman with her child. This is racism and generalization because not all black people are poor and hungry. He could have came up with two white mothers, one rich, and one poor, but it was his intention to make this issue a black and white issue,

I'm not finding that part on the transcript. Maybe it is in the video but not on the transcript for some reason?

that he is absolutely right since his theory works on the Taliban.

Actually, a moral postulate that does not "work on the Taliban" would probably be not worth keeping at all.


I'm taking issues with his dishonesty and manipulative nature. What he has presented is not even half scientific. It's all based on misinformation and prejudice.

I... just don't know what you are talking about.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Since you seem to have the script please put it here or send it by PM to me so i can quote for you exactly what he said.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
ShadowWolf really has a point about eugenics. If you really want to better the human species, an obvious place to start is with the elimination of deleterious genomes. All of that can be (and is) investigated with the sciences. It is very, very easy for an ethical system grounded in science to justify sterilization of humans who are carriers for deleterious traits under the pretense of the greater good. The sciences could also be used to support a very rigid and authoritarian way of controlling people's environments, because environment is a major player in human flourishing. This is part of why I said earlier that a science-based morality would inevitably progress to a technocracy. The average person isn't going to want to give up their freedoms to do what is good for the whole, even if overwhelming scientific evidence indicates a particular course is wise or necessary for a given goal. The fact that we're still sitting on our rear ends about climate change is an example of that.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Ok Luis here is one for you.

ShadowWolf really has a point about eugenics. If you really want to better the human species, an obvious place to start is with the elimination of deleterious genomes. All of that can be (and is) investigated with the sciences. It is very, very easy for an ethical system grounded in science to justify sterilization of humans who are carriers for deleterious traits under the pretense of the greater good. The sciences could also be used to support a very rigid and authoritarian way of controlling people's environments, because environment is a major player in human flourishing. This is part of why I said earlier that a science-based morality would inevitably progress to a technocracy. The average person isn't going to want to give up their freedoms to do what is good for the whole, even if overwhelming scientific evidence indicates a particular course is wise or necessary for a given goal. The fact that we're still sitting on our rear ends about climate change is an example of that.

Why i couldn't say it the way you did? :D
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
ShadowWolf really has a point about eugenics. If you really want to better the human species, an obvious place to start is with the elimination of deleterious genomes. All of that can be (and is) investigated with the sciences. It is very, very easy for an ethical system grounded in science to justify sterilization of humans who are carriers for deleterious traits under the pretense of the greater good.

That is really nonsense. A true ethical system, be it grounded in science or else, can't in good faith force people into sterelization against their desires.


The sciences could also be used to support a very rigid and authoritarian way of controlling people's environments, because environment is a major player in human flourishing. This is part of why I said earlier that a science-based morality would inevitably progress to a technocracy. The average person isn't going to want to give up their freedoms to do what is good for the whole, even if overwhelming scientific evidence indicates a particular course is wise or necessary for a given goal. The fact that we're still sitting on our rear ends about climate change is an example of that.

I feel like I am missing the half of the scenario that would make me understand what you mean.

Science can be misused, I guess. But that is hardly the point, since we are talking about using it for morality, not as an excuse.

I suspect I would have a better grasp of what you mean if I knew what you see as being the origin of morality.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
That is really nonsense. A true ethical system, be it grounded in science or else, can't in good faith force people into sterelization against their desires.
There are no real or true ethical systems. It's all subjective, and subject to the whims of the majority. Eugenics happens to be an idea that is supported by science-if individuals (regardless of species) with "bad" genes can't reproduce they cannot pass their genes on-and is one that society has supported because it would lead to a human race with only "good" genes. A form of selective breeding/artificial selection if you will. It's similar to thinking it immoral to not abort a fetus due to certain defects. Science can also make a statement for the morality and necessity of herd culling, though the consequences can be disastrous and potentially devastating to a local ecosystem.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
There are no real or true ethical systems.

Well, that is a major disagreement point right there.


It's all subjective, and subject to the whims of the majority.

So you are proposing that it is just an arbitrary aesthetical prefence, much like belief in God?

I don't think I can possibly come to agree with that, ever. There are very clear situations where a choice is ethical and another, equally possible one is not.

Determining the boundaries of ethics may be a little (and I mean a little; it is not particularly difficult at all) difficutl, but there is no doubt in my mind that they are not subjective or even particularly unclear.


Eugenics happens to be an idea that is supported by science-if individuals (regardless of species) with "bad" genes can't reproduce they cannot pass their genes on-and is one that society has supported because it would lead to a human race with only "good" genes.

I'm fairly sure that is not quite true even for crops and pets, let alone human beings that can express feelings on the matter..


A form of selective breeding/artificial selection if you will. It's similar to thinking it immoral to not abort a fetus due to certain defects. Science can also make a statement for the morality and necessity of herd culling, though the consequences can be disastrous and potentially devastating to a local ecosystem.

It seems to me that you are criticizing oppression or authoritarism, not science.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Sunstone,

I'm so, so happy you brought this up - hooray. For my money this TED talk is the best I've seen and Harris's idea seems like it could be profoundly useful in moving humanity towards peace and flourishing for all.

Does this link work better? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj9oB4zpHww

(I can never remember if it's okay to post links like this - I hope it's ok!)

A key idea is a philosophy based on the well-being of conscious creatures. On several other websites I frequent, we discuss this philosophy a lot, and we call it "WBCC".

Harris doesn't flush it out in this talk, but WBCC can be applied to difficult moral questions like "the needs of the many vs. the needs of the few". So, for example when you bring up eugenics, WBCC *might* answer by saying: if we lived in a society where eugenics was practiced, that would reduce everyone's quality of life. Just the dread of it would pull everyone down a bit. I can say for example, that to me, capital punishment has the same affect. Just the thought that some countries use capital punishment reduces my well-being.

And finally, the idea that science will take over everything is just backwards. Science is science exactly because, it does NOT move forward due to dogmatism. It moves forward because every idea is tested and debated to within an inch of its life. Every scientist must be humble because any idea he offers is going to get a lot of harsh, critical scrutiny.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Well, that is a major disagreement point right there.
So you are proposing that it is just an arbitrary aesthetical prefence, much like belief in God?
I don't think I can possibly come to agree with that, ever. There are very clear situations where a choice is ethical and another, equally possible one is not.
Determining the boundaries of ethics may be a little (and I mean a little; it is not particularly difficult at all) difficutl, but there is no doubt in my mind that they are not subjective or even particularly unclear.
What is moral and ethical to one group of people, or person, may be unethical to another. Premarital sex, gay sex and "kinky" sex are considered by many to be immoral, but to many others there is nothing wrong with them. You yourself view drug use as immoral, but in numerous religions they are a part of religious rituals. Some consider killing animals, under any circumstances, to be immoral, but many people provide food for their families by hunting.

It seems to me that you are criticizing oppression or authoritarism, not science.
I am merely pointing out that morality is not universally defined, and that science can be used to further an "immoral" agenda. Just like a hammer that can be used to create great monuments or cause great destruction, scientifically defining morality can as well cause good or evil.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
If the sciences goes this route, it will make the sciences even more of a religion (or religions) and a religious pursuit than they already are. That would be curious to watch, and I imagine technocracy would be the inevitable progression from there.

Surely you're not suggesting that religion can be reduced to a value system? That seems such a Christian notion for someone who is a Pagan.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Until all humans have precisely identical values, they will never have an agreed upon system of ethics. Ethics stem from values, and while they're drawn from what could be described as an "aesthetic preference" I wouldn't exactly call them arbitrary. They're conditioned and cultural.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Surely you're not suggesting that religion can be reduced to a value system?

No, but if one wanted to identify a core element of religions, a strong case can be made for the central axis of religions being responses to the question "what do I value?" Out of that comes storytelling and ritual that is an expression of said values. Also, ethical systems, codes of conduct, guidelines for relationships, and so on.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
No, but if one wanted to identify a core element of religions, a strong case can be made for the central axis of religions being responses to the question "what do I value?" Out of that comes storytelling and ritual that is an expression of said values. Also, ethical systems, codes of conduct, guidelines for relationships, and so on.

I guess we have very very different notions of what is core to religion.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
What is moral and ethical to one group of people, or person, may be unethical to another. Premarital sex, gay sex and "kinky" sex are considered by many to be immoral, but to many others there is nothing wrong with them. You yourself view drug use as immoral, but in numerous religions they are a part of religious rituals. Some consider killing animals, under any circumstances, to be immoral, but many people provide food for their families by hunting.



Then again, the sun is not always at the same point in the sky either.

That does not mean it is impossible to understand or predict its path, nor does the variability of moral parameters evidence that morals are random, completely arbitrary or unpredictable.
It just shows that they are defined to some extent by the circunstances, including the personal history, language, social environment and moral capability of the people involved.


I am merely pointing out that morality is not universally defined,


More like it hasn't been conclusively demonstrated that is is or can be universal. I have no doubt that it will, sooner rather than later.


and that science can be used to further an "immoral" agenda.

What on Earth can not?

Just like a hammer that can be used to create great monuments or cause great destruction, scientifically defining morality can as well cause good or evil.

In the sense that it is not immune to abuse or misuse, I guess I agree. But that truly seems to be intentionally avoiding the point.
 
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