Same Benefits?

[Sunstone]

I've got a "theory". It goes like this: A sage feels a need for something. Say he or she feels a need to be celibate. So the sage becomes celibate.

Then the sage gets a disciple. The disciple decides it would be a good idea to emulate the sage so as to become a sage themselves. He or she observes that the sage is celibate, and decides to also be celibate.

But now you have a situation in which celibacy has come naturally to the sage, but willfully to the disciple.

My question is this: Is celibacy likely to have the same benefits for the sage as for the disciple? Will the disciple be likely to experience more and perhaps greater problems with celibacy than the sage?

 

[Twilight Hue]

I've got a "theory". It goes like this: A sage feels a need for something. Say he or she feels a need to be celibate. So the sage becomes celibate.

Then the sage gets a disciple. The disciple decides it would be a good idea to emulate the sage so as to become a sage themselves. He or she observes that the sage is celibate, and decides to also be celibate.

But now you have a situation in which celibacy has come naturally to the sage, but willfully to the disciple.

My question is this: Is celibacy likely to have the same benefits for the sage as for the disciple? Will the disciple be likely to experience more and perhaps greater problems with celibacy than the sage?

I'm willing to guess if a sage and disiples were to elaborate on their choice of celibacy, the answers would vary as to it's benefit.

Kind of reminds me of the man in oil in Circle of Iron encouraging Chord to join him as both had taken vows of chastity.

 

[sun rise]

The disciple decides

That's the key point to me. If a student imitates a teacher without the benefit of the teacher's knowledge, there's a chance that a religious group is forming around imitation without deep knowledge.

Whether or not the disciple has an easy time of celibacy might or might not be the issue. To me the key question is whether or not celibacy in your example helps or hinders the student in his journey.

 

[Spiderman]

Since I believe in God, I would say that celibacy for some people is a calling, it is their vocation to give God undivided attention without a chattering spouse and children to provide for, listen to, watch over, discipline, and care for. Family life is a huge responsibility that distracts a person from entirely devoting themselves to God, prayer, asceticism, and meditation.

In answer to your question, if the disciple was called by God to be celibate, and the spirit of God thoroughly enlightened the disciple with understanding and the necessary graces from heaven to fulfill their celibate vocation, I see all the potential there for the disciple to have just as much benefits as the sage.

If the disciple did not have that vocation of celibacy, and God did not provide the necessary graces, then the disciple is going to have many problems, like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole!

At the end of the day, it all depends on who the disciple is, how healthy they are mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, how mature they are, and how much grace they are receiving from God. If God is not calling them to a celibate life, then they will encounter many problems trying to live that rule of life!

 

[Kapalika]

I know that often oaths of celibacy, vegetarianism ect is voluntary when it comes to monastic orders. Also, with any kind of lineage sage/disciple thing, if it is required of a specific path, that they vet the people and make sure they are doing it for the right reasons. And by path I mean like certain oaths or practices within a religion, such as becoming a monk ect

So no, I don't think normally it's just done to emulate someone else, although I can see that it might be true of Catholic monks trying to emulate saints. I was more so thinking of Dharmic orders and ashrams and the like. Anyways my point is that there are reasons for oaths like that, no one just does it for the sake of it to seem more pious, or at least in theory they shouldn't if their order is functional (not sure again, if Catholicism is an exception).

 

[BSM1]

I've got a "theory". It goes like this: A sage feels a need for something. Say he or she feels a need to be celibate. So the sage becomes celibate.

Then the sage gets a disciple. The disciple decides it would be a good idea to emulate the sage so as to become a sage themselves. He or she observes that the sage is celibate, and decides to also be celibate.

But now you have a situation in which celibacy has come naturally to the sage, but willfully to the disciple.

My question is this: Is celibacy likely to have the same benefits for the sage as for the disciple? Will the disciple be likely to experience more and perhaps greater problems with celibacy than the sage?

I'll let you know in about a week. Ah, hell, who am I fooling? I doubt if I make it through the next half hour.

 

[Axe Elf]

I'll let you know in about a week. Ah, hell, who am I fooling? I doubt if I make it through the next half hour.

 

[Stanyon]

Onion Peelings comes to mind from Aleister Crowley's Book of Lies, a personal favourite.

"ONION-PEELINGS
The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular, quoth FRATER PERDURABO, and laughed.
But those disciples nearest to him wept, seeing the Universal Sorrow.
Those next to them laughed, seeing the Universal Joke.
Below these certain disciples wept.
Then certain laughed.
Others next wept.
Others next laughed.
Next others wept.
Next others laughed.
Last came those that wept because they could not see the Joke, and those that laughed lest they should be thought not to see the Joke, and thought it safe to act like FRATER PERDURABO.
But though FRATER PERDURABO laughed openly, He also at the same time wept secretly; and in Himself He neither laughed nor wept.
Nor did He mean what He said."

 

[crossfire]

That's the key point to me. If a student imitates a teacher without the benefit of the teacher's knowledge, there's a chance that a religious group is forming around imitation without deep knowledge.

Whether or not the disciple has an easy time of celibacy might or might not be the issue. To me the key question is whether or not celibacy in your example helps or hinders the student in his journey.

Who is going to come out with the deeper knowledge? The one to whom it came naturally, and didn't have to think about it at all, or the one who had to struggle with physical and psychological urges?

 

[icehorse]

I've got a "theory". It goes like this: A sage feels a need for something. Say he or she feels a need to be celibate. So the sage becomes celibate.

Then the sage gets a disciple. The disciple decides it would be a good idea to emulate the sage so as to become a sage themselves. He or she observes that the sage is celibate, and decides to also be celibate.

But now you have a situation in which celibacy has come naturally to the sage, but willfully to the disciple.

My question is this: Is celibacy likely to have the same benefits for the sage as for the disciple? Will the disciple be likely to experience more and perhaps greater problems with celibacy than the sage?

Or it could become like the grand-daughter who cuts the ends off of the roast before putting it in the oven.

 

[sun rise]

Who is going to come out with the deeper knowledge? The one to whom it came naturally, and didn't have to think about it at all, or the one who had to struggle with physical and psychological urges?

I know of no one who did not have to struggle at some time or another.

 

[Sunstone]

Or it could become like the grand-daughter who cuts the ends off of the roast before putting it in the oven.

I don't understand. Could you explain the reference?

 

[icehorse]

I don't understand. Could you explain the reference?

Ah sorry, old joke. A mother is teaching her daughter to cook, and when it comes to cooking pot roasts, the mother cuts a little bit off each end before cooking. The daughter asks why and the mother says, I'm not sure, that's the way my mother taught me. A few months later the grandmother is visiting and the granddaughter asks about cutting off the ends. The grandmother laughs and says, "you don't need to do that, i did a long time ago when we had a small oven".