I’m all for civility. Not so much for enforced civility..
San Francisco DA mandates use of preferred pronouns to show dignity and respect
San Francisco DA mandates use of preferred pronouns to show dignity and respect
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San Fran’s DA mandates use of preferred pronouns
- Thread starter icehorse
- Start date
epronovost
Well-Known Member
Are you sure about that? I could probably quote a few example of enforced civility you would consider perfectly reasonable and desirable.
My real concern here is - admittedly - a slippery-slope concern about the erosion of free speech. I understand that free speech is not absolute. But I think that we should view ANY proposed encroachment to free speech with extreme skepticism.
epronovost
Well-Known Member
How is this a slippery slope considering this is already a common practice for other classes of people. Harassments and bullying are already illegal. What this law does is simple add transgender to the list of protected classes. Discrimination in a workplace environment is already illegal. What sort of "slippery slope" can there be if this rule is actually not even "on a slope" at all, but simply a restatement of a much older rule.
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Kooky
Freedom from Sanity
And once again the same song and dance. Do you ever learn anything in these discussions?
Kooky
Freedom from Sanity
Are you sure you mean "skepticism" and not "disapproval"? Skepticism would be somebody doubting your claims that Western civilization is doomed, doomed! by acknowledging the pronouns of transgender people.
I'd love to comply, but things change so quickly in these areas that as soon as you learn one set of pronouns, they're out and a new nomenclature replaces it. I learned ze/zir (Ze did it zirself), but I've seen others since, so I'll wait a bit longer before using any of these, unless somebody tells me to use a given word in their case.
Speaking of 'their,' I'm still having trouble accepting 'they,' 'them,' and 'their' as singular, gender-neutral pronouns: "I don't know if it was Bill or Sue, but whoever it was, they ate the last piece of cake." That sounds like they both ate it to me. Apparently, this is now considered acceptable usage according to the linguists and grammarians that inhabit a Facebook site called English Language Police II ("To correct and serve"), where I've enjoyed dozens of such discussions since joining a few weeks back.
FYI (and since you apparently have Grateful Dead roots judging by your citing of their lyrics), San Franciscans bristle at the terms Frisco and San Fran. They seem to call it The City most commonly when not calling it San Francisco, but I presume that that only works in the bay area or near it. In any event, saying San Fran to a resident will get a correction.
San Francisco, Frisco or San Fran—What’s Correct? | Bospar.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The speech police in their noble crusade, at it again.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
It is doomed as the way gets paved for new rules, enforcing other words. Give an inch, grab a mile.
We should note that this applies only to
the local justice system & government.
When they impose rules upon just
themselves, I'm not concerned.
epronovost
Well-Known Member
We already ban personal, gendered and racial insults from the workplace. This is harassments and actionable. What's with people calling "slippery slope" and "attack on freedom of speech" a rule that has been in place for decades already and did not result in any loss of freedom or slippery slope type of scenario. This is as absurd as the "accepting homosexuality means accepting bestiality" sort of argument.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
It's already became a slippery slope. You just don't think it's there.
Basically the expansion of what is regarded as -"derogatory' with words that are actually truthful and accurate, and yet made intentionally into something else.
There is nothing at all wrong with words that describe something that is actually truthful, and that includes ones free choice to use or not to use verbal pronouns.
It's not harassment, it's stating a truth.
epronovost
Well-Known Member
No it's never been the case. You never thought it was probably because you never held a job in the past or never were stupid enough to put this into practice with real people.
Let me give you a very clear example. If I believe you are a ****ing idiot and I so happen to be demonstrably right. You are a ****ing idiot and I, on the job, refer to you as a ****ing idiot and you were to complain to HR about my behavior or even sued me in a civil court (or even a criminal one should I go really overboard with it), you would certainly win. Me being technically correct doesn't give me the right to rob you of your basic dignity nor does it allow me to constantly make your job and your life harder by insulting and putting you down. Being "correct" isn't a protection against harassment. It could be a protection against charges of slander, but not harassment.
That's why I can't refer to my students as "gay boy" or "gay girl" even if I know they are homosexual. That would be demeaning and would constitute harassment. That its true and accurate, they are indeed gay and a boy/girl, doesn't change anything and you probably perfectly agree with that concept.
Kooky
Freedom from Sanity
Publically calling for the murder of a sitting POTUS is a crime.
Therefore, all public statements are criminalized.
Correct?
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I'd probably appreciate being called a ******* idiot. Stuff like that grabs your attention as to what possibly brought that on.
Hey, I have been a ******* idiot in the past. Really, It's true*. Whats the big deal?
If it's that bad , stand up for yourself. But remember, that one can become so over protected and bold the roles get reversed and you then become the ******* idiot.
That's just the way life works.
* Oh... that opens the door for some royal flaming of Twilight Hue. What did I start? I'm such a ******* idiot!
epronovost
Well-Known Member
Except that's just an example. Since you dodge my point, I suspect it's because you agree with it. That my insult could be construed as accurate doesn't mean I have the right to constantly put you down just like in my second example about gay students. You don't have the right to harass and insult people in their workplace. You never had that right.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
No not necessarily, although saying such a thing would most likely grant you a visit from the secret service inquiring about ones motivation.
I don't believe that this is your real concern.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Oh I don't deny it. If you only knew how bad I was bullied and harassed in the past.
The difference is I managed to build up a fair amount of teflon over the years. I didn't run screaming for protection to my big brother anymore , but rather stood up and faced my own demons rather then cry out for someone else for intervention. It took a loooong time to get there.
Trust me when I tell you, there is a lot to be said about going through hell to get to heaven. Like tempered steel, your less likely to break*.
*Thank you Benji. My mentor of teflon.