Satan and Lucifer

[Sum1sGruj]

I joined this forum at a very crucial time. I've always been quite the agnostic throughout the course of my life. Having suspicion of many things in science, physics became my long time fascination. Then I looked into radio-dating techniques by geologists and evolutionists.. needless to say, I wasn't impressed.
So a few years ago, I was inspired to take on Christianity but could never really take it seriously. I found myself only praying when times were hard, and only speaking of it when it was spoken of. It's never been me to 'half' anything, so it weathered after a while until it was gone. My agnostic side sprung back into action.
Recently, however, I have come to find many things about Christianity that I don't even think a lot of other Christians see.
For example, one can have the criteria to agnostic and indeed be agnostic, but only the educated really see the beauty of it.
This is how Christianity works for me. I see so many things in the Bible that I feel must be connected. If you believe Jesus is the Messiah, you must believe these connections, as Jesus according to us is completion.
I think that is why Christians through the ages have tried to work the enigmas in the Bible.
Anyways, I'm rambling lol.
I finally decided to pick up Christianity for the final time. I've always felt that sense of doubt every time I thought about any atheistic view, so I figured: it's been a long time coming, I feel something tugging.
Since I have been a strong agnostic all my life, I do feel that I carry a heavier responsibility on being a Christian, as most Christians have not ventured on the aspects of science and philosophy. And so God expects me to use my strength to exemplify a strong Christian. If someone contends me on belief, I contend back- but I do not break the teachings of Jesus either. I've always been a firm believer that words do in fact kill.
I guess that is why I was relunctant to argue Jew vs Christian. I knew I wouldn't be able to hold my tongue and it is a very sore subject no matter how you go about it.

Don't get the wrong idea. I'm not a saint nor am I partial to cliches, but I do try to remain meek and rational when speaking on real serious things.

Anyways, connections. We find them. Jews reject them. Your message has been "I believe Christians have distorted Judaic belief. My message is "I believe Jews distorted their own belief". There's really nothing we can do to convince each other, so we might as well call a truce.

 

[gnostic]

Ten years ago, I didn't even know what agnosticism is. I didn't even know that there was a word for the way I see gods or religions.

 

[Twig pentagram]

urm, It might sound strange but lucifer and jesus are one!!! Lucifer is Gods proudest creation, he is not the devil but the angel of light! theres too much taken literally, its not meant to be. Jesus and lucifer are the bright morning star!
when jesus was tempted 3 times by lucifer, it was jesus own subconscious he was dealing with. Lucifer is the subconscious of man, the great communication!

engish gematria:
Lucifer= 444Jesus=444
Jesus lucifer= 888
Mashiach or jesus second coming if u like: Mashiach ----- ---- = 888
I bet mashiach =888

In the legend of Yeshua he was never tempted by a lucifer he was tempted by a satan. I do not and will not equate the two.

 

[David69]

In the legend of Yeshua he was never tempted by a lucifer he was tempted by a satan. I do not and will not equate the two.

show me your source then?
I do not recognise satan as a whole

 

[Twig pentagram]

show me your source then?
I do not recognise satan as a whole

Mark 1: 12-13.

 

[David69]

Mark 1: 12-13.

your right! what I read wasnt a bible sourse, the problem is that people see satan and Lucifer as the same! I see them as two parts of one. So if jesus was tempted by Satan, he was tempted by Lucifers darkside. But still, I beleive Lucifer to be the subconscious of man.
To me (my own opinion) satan is lucifers darkside. If it says different in the bible thats ok but I dont beleive much in the bible lol
Do you think satan is the morning star?

 

[Sum1sGruj]

your right! what I read wasnt a bible sourse, the problem is that people see satan and Lucifer as the same! I see them as two parts of one. So if jesus was tempted by Satan, he was tempted by Lucifers darkside. But still, I beleive Lucifer to be the subconscious of man.
To me (my own opinion) satan is lucifers darkside. If it says different in the bible thats ok but I dont beleive much in the bible lol
Do you think satan is the morning star?

This is what the thread was about lol. I'm the OP. It's a splitting thing between Christian and Jews. The believe Satan is a servant of God ordered to test the will of man. Christians believe he is a renegade angel that fell from grace, and is commonly referred to as Lucifer because of his original role of being the Morning Star, the Light-Bringer to Earth before the revolt in Heaven. And so Jesus becomes it in Revelations.
Needless to say, Jews stomp on the idea, so there's no real point in debating it.

 

[David69]

This is what the thread was about lol. I'm the OP. It's a splitting thing between Christian and Jews. The believe Satan is a servant of God ordered to test the will of man. Christians believe he is a renegade angel that fell from grace, and is commonly referred to as Lucifer because of his original role of being the Morning Star, the Light-Bringer to Earth before the revolt in Heaven. And so Jesus becomes it in Revelations.
Needless to say, Jews stomp on the idea, so there's no real point in debating it.

Christians and jews are in for a shock when Mashiach/Messiah turns up and shows that he is the second coming of jesus and that lucifer resides within his subconscious!
That future mashiach is me

English gemetria: Jesus 444 Lucifer 444 Jesus lucifer 888 mashiach (followed by my name 888 Jewish messiah 888 :yes:
first 3 digits of his code 999. turn it upside down 666. 666 is the same as 333. 333 is the communication of the source 9 thats the number of Lucifer and jesus and me.
3+3+3=9 how is 333 the same as 666 you might wonder, its easy a child could work it out.

cheers.

 

[Sum1sGruj]

Christians and jews are in for a shock when Mashiach/Messiah turns up and shows that he is the second coming of jesus and that lucifer resides within his subconscious!
That future mashiach is me

English gemetria: Jesus 444 Lucifer 444 Jesus lucifer 888 mashiach (followed by my name 888 Jewish messiah 888 :yes:
first 3 digits of his code 999. turn it upside down 666. 666 is the same as 333. 333 is the communication of the source 9 thats the number of Lucifer and jesus and me.
3+3+3=9 how is 333 the same as 666 you might wonder, its easy a child could work it out.

cheers.

The Morning Star seems to be a title instead of an actual angel. In the Bible, the Morning Star is regarded as a fallen cherub within the Christian understanding.
Jesus cannot be such a being.
Christians just call this angel Lucifer (which is Latin for light-bearer). Satan also seems to be a title, meaning adversary. So Lucifer and Satan are the same being according to us. Lucifer just becomes the ideal name in Christian views because he was promised Earth even after his fall (and I guess to disassociate the Jewish idea of Satan)
Jesus will take the title of Morning Star in Revelations when Earth is purged and renewed.

 

[David69]

The Morning Star seems to be a title instead of an actual angel. In the Bible, the Morning Star is regarded as a fallen cherub within the Christian understanding.
Jesus cannot be such a being.
Christians just call this angel Lucifer (which is Latin for light-bearer). Satan also seems to be a title, meaning adversary. So Lucifer and Satan are the same being according to us. Lucifer just becomes the ideal name in Christian views because he was promised Earth even after his fall (and I guess to disassociate the Jewish idea of Satan)
Jesus will take the title of Morning Star in Revelations when Earth is purged and renewed.

Isnt the morning star venus? I wouldnt call that a title imo Lucifer is Gods proudest creation!
I love my jesus since I recognised him as part of me!
Jesus: "I send forth mine angel to testify...I am the root and OFFSPRING of DAVID... WE ARE ONE"! Talking of his second coming... The eagle landed in 69 :yes: Born ahuman with a human father

 

[Sum1sGruj]

Isnt the morning star venus? I wouldnt call that a title imo Lucifer is Gods proudest creation!
I love my jesus since I recognised him as part of me!
Jesus: "I send forth mine angel to testify...I am the root and OFFSPRING of DAVID... WE ARE ONE"! Talking of his second coming... The eagle landed in 69 :yes: Born ahuman with a human father

A cherub falls from grace and is a spectacle before kings (Ezekiel 28:16-17). This fallen cherub is spoken as the Morning Star when King Nebuchadnezzar is so poetically bashed (Isaiah 14:12),
and lastly, Jesus is spoken as the Mrning Star in Revelations.

The Morning Star is a metaphor. The angel with the title is to be the one that brings light (grace) unto Earth. Lucifer failed to do so, as he instead rebelled against God. So Jesus takes this title in Revelations.

I do not see how they could possibly be the same.

 

[Twig pentagram]

your right! what I read wasnt a bible sourse, the problem is that people see satan and Lucifer as the same! I see them as two parts of one. So if jesus was tempted by Satan, he was tempted by Lucifers darkside. But still, I beleive Lucifer to be the subconscious of man.
To me (my own opinion) satan is lucifers darkside. If it says different in the bible thats ok but I dont beleive much in the bible lol
Do you think satan is the morning star?

O.K, I understand where you coming from. As for the morning star, no I don't think satan is the morning star. I think the morning star is luciferian symbol.

 

[David69]

A cherub falls from grace and is a spectacle before kings (Ezekiel 28:16-17). This fallen cherub is spoken as the Morning Star when King Nebuchadnezzar is so poetically bashed (Isaiah 14:12),
and lastly, Jesus is spoken as the Mrning Star in Revelations.

The Morning Star is a metaphor. The angel with the title is to be the one that brings light (grace) unto Earth. Lucifer failed to do so, as he instead rebelled against God. So Jesus takes this title in Revelations.

I do not see how they could possibly be the same.

He brings knowledge, truth and brings about the fall of the true evil! The evil manipulators of religion! False religions will fall. He brings the world together as one! imo. He is the lord of communication!!!

do not see how they could possibly be the same
Lucifer is the higher consciousness of man, anyone that realises this God within may know what I am on about! Jesus knew this majikal spirit within. He was imo tempted by Lucifer as a test. Shame he is seen as the devil.

If you havent got "eyes to see", I wouldnt take everything literally in any holy book!!!

 

[David69]

O.K, I understand where you coming from. As for the morning star, no I don't think satan is the morning star. I think the morning star is luciferian symbol.

Good!

a tear falls down the face of Lucifer as he watches his lambs lead to there slaughter by the true evil! The wolves in sheeps clothing. I will have my day

Any man sees Lucifer as evil he is a fool imho.

 

[Luminous]

I joined this forum at a very crucial time. I've always been quite the agnostic throughout the course of my life. Having suspicion of many things in science, physics became my long time fascination. Then I looked into radio-dating techniques by geologists and evolutionists.. needless to say, I wasn't impressed.
So a few years ago, I was inspired to take on Christianity but could never really take it seriously. I found myself only praying when times were hard, and only speaking of it when it was spoken of. It's never been me to 'half' anything, so it weathered after a while until it was gone. My agnostic side sprung back into action.
Recently, however, I have come to find many things about Christianity that I don't even think a lot of other Christians see.
For example, one can have the criteria to agnostic and indeed be agnostic, but only the educated really see the beauty of it.
This is how Christianity works for me. I see so many things in the Bible that I feel must be connected. If you believe Jesus is the Messiah, you must believe these connections, as Jesus according to us is completion.
I think that is why Christians through the ages have tried to work the enigmas in the Bible.
Anyways, I'm rambling lol.
I finally decided to pick up Christianity for the final time. I've always felt that sense of doubt every time I thought about any atheistic view, so I figured: it's been a long time coming, I feel something tugging.
Since I have been a strong agnostic all my life, I do feel that I carry a heavier responsibility on being a Christian, as most Christians have not ventured on the aspects of science and philosophy. And so God expects me to use my strength to exemplify a strong Christian. If someone contends me on belief, I contend back- but I do not break the teachings of Jesus either. I've always been a firm believer that words do in fact kill.
I guess that is why I was relunctant to argue Jew vs Christian. I knew I wouldn't be able to hold my tongue and it is a very sore subject no matter how you go about it.

Don't get the wrong idea. I'm not a saint nor am I partial to cliches, but I do try to remain meek and rational when speaking on real serious things.

Anyways, connections. We find them. Jews reject them. Your message has been "I believe Christians have distorted Judaic belief. My message is "I believe Jews distorted their own belief". There's really nothing we can do to convince each other, so we might as well call a truce.

Interesting, I think Satan, Lucifer, Beezelbub, and the serpent were originally different things

 

[gnostic]

Interesting, I think Satan, Lucifer, Beezelbub, and the serpent were originally different things

The names Lucifer and Beezelbub were never used to identify Satan as such, in the OT or Tanakh, originally. With Christians interpretation of the OT, yes, but not by the Jews.

And the name Lucifer was never used in NT at all. Identification of Lucifer with Satan wasn't made till later.

I am not certain if the Jews ever thought that serpent was ever Satan. I doubt it they did. I personally think the whole Eden thing is just fable or myth, not meant to be taken literally.

 

[BadBeast]

In pre Abrahamic faiths, the Serpent was viewed as a bringer of Wisdom, so it's natural enough that the early myths of the JHVH cultists should malign Serpents, right from the start. Even in the Eden myth, the Serpent was still a bringer of Wisdom, because it apparently told Eve what the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge would do. The fact it disobey's Gods word is neirther here nor there.. I think it was a set-up anyway. If God created Man, surely he must have factored our curiosity into the picture. "Oh, don't, whatever you do, eat that fruit, will you?" That was bound to end up with us eating it. And if he thought it would elicit any other response in us, then he seems to be somewhat lacking in foresight.

So Lucifer, as the "Lightbringer" can also be seen as a bringer of Wisdom. Cast out of Heaven, with a third of the Seraphim for the "Sin" of Hubris, he gets to share a World with, . . . . . .us! That's got to be an interesting dynamic, really. Did God forget who he's already seeded here? Did it slip his mind? Or was it all part of his plan? The Freewill factor suggests that it was. The Seraphim had no freewill. This was their flaw. They couldn't choose not to serve God. So according to that, the Fallen are still serving him, on Earth. Just resentfully, I would have thought. So they have become the bad guys, who we are not supposed to listen to. Deceivers, led by the Prince of Lies? OK.
The early Church, with it's policy of scaring all the Pagans into the pews, obviously capitalized on this, and it worked. But as the Canon got entrenched in Dogma, and Heretics weeded out, burned, or discredited, we are left with a very obvious collection of selected and edited propaganda. (The New Testament) With any bits that were possibly contemporaneous with Jesus safely removed.

And God said unto Adam, "Keep always one eye upon thy Woman, she shall surely betray you. She has been beguiled by the Serpent, who is Father of Lies, and together they plot your destruction"
And Adam replied, "Chill your boots Dude! That's my Baby you're disrespecting! You'd better watch what you say about her, or you and me is going to fall out, big style!"

 

[Sum1sGruj]

In pre Abrahamic faiths, the Serpent was viewed as a bringer of Wisdom, so it's natural enough that the early myths of the JHVH cultists should malign Serpents, right from the start. Even in the Eden myth, the Serpent was still a bringer of Wisdom, because it apparently told Eve what the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge would do. The fact it disobey's Gods word is neirther here nor there.. I think it was a set-up anyway. If God created Man, surely he must have factored our curiosity into the picture. "Oh, don't, whatever you do, eat that fruit, will you?" That was bound to end up with us eating it. And if he thought it would elicit any other response in us, then he seems to be somewhat lacking in foresight.

So Lucifer, as the "Lightbringer" can also be seen as a bringer of Wisdom. Cast out of Heaven, with a third of the Seraphim for the "Sin" of Hubris, he gets to share a World with, . . . . . .us! That's got to be an interesting dynamic, really. Did God forget who he's already seeded here? Did it slip his mind? Or was it all part of his plan? The Freewill factor suggests that it was. The Seraphim had no freewill. This was their flaw. They couldn't choose not to serve God. So according to that, the Fallen are still serving him, on Earth. Just resentfully, I would have thought. So they have become the bad guys, who we are not supposed to listen to. Deceivers, led by the Prince of Lies? OK.
The early Church, with it's policy of scaring all the Pagans into the pews, obviously capitalized on this, and it worked. But as the Canon got entrenched in Dogma, and Heretics weeded out, burned, or discredited, we are left with a very obvious collection of selected and edited propaganda. (The New Testament) With any bits that were possibly contemporaneous with Jesus safely removed.

And God said unto Adam, "Keep always one eye upon thy Woman, she shall surely betray you. She has been beguiled by the Serpent, who is Father of Lies, and together they plot your destruction"
And Adam replied, "Chill your boots Dude! That's my Baby you're disrespecting! You'd better watch what you say about her, or you and me is going to fall out, big style!"

Your entire argument is practically dependent on the idea that angels do not have free will. Ezekiel 28:13-16 speaks explicitly of an angel who fell from grace.
Lucifer was of the Cherubim, in which there is a lot of 'gray' to the idea of them actually being below the Seraphim (as the cherubs seem to be the major players.)

What is free will without choice?
God is omnipotent, but some want to dig into semantics so extremely that it just has to be impossible for God to make mistakes, when really there are many times in the Bible where God becomes angry, ashamed, grieved, etc., therefore voiding that idea altogether.

 

[thadc71]

Satan is not lucificer! Satan is who God created him to be, not a perfect angel that turned bad! Jesus said he was a liar from the beginning, therefor he was never a perfect being!

 

[outhouse]

The names Lucifer and Beezelbub were never used to identify Satan as such, in the OT or Tanakh, originally. With Christians interpretation of the OT, yes, but not by the Jews.

And the name Lucifer was never used in NT at all. Identification of Lucifer with Satan wasn't made till later.

I am not certain if the Jews ever thought that serpent was ever Satan. I doubt it they did. I personally think the whole Eden thing is just fable or myth, not meant to be taken literally.

exactly

the mythical devil is something that evolved and has never stopped evolving. its a concept more then a reality