Thanks guys
I will try to get a picture tomorrow if you want
My boyfriend is a Catholic and he teaches me a lot But I can't photograph them all; I have a ton of Jewish books under my bed, commentaries on the Torah etc.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Satan, Lucifer and the Devil
- Thread starter The Crimson Universe
- Start date
-
- Tags
- satan
I will try to get a picture tomorrow if you want
My boyfriend is a Catholic and he teaches me a lot But I can't photograph them all; I have a ton of Jewish books under my bed, commentaries on the Torah etc.
No. See 2 Peter 1:19
19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.
The word "morning star" is "Lucifer" in the Latin Vulgate (as Lucifer is the Latin Term for morning star as used in Isaiah.) I think it is safe to say that a Christian wouldn't be waiting for Satan to rise in their heart.
VoidCat
Use any and all pronouns including neo and it/it's
Tag me if you do that! Dont feel obligated thoThanks guys
I will try to get a picture tomorrow if you want
But I can't photograph them all; I have a ton of Jewish books under my bed, commentaries on the Torah etc.
Reyn
The Hungry Abyss
It is also said that those who wrote about this, misheard the word "Mohammed". Baphomet is a creation of a human, not a deity.
Truth in love
Well-Known Member
Yes, same dude. Not the most obvious in every reading, but yes
Colt
Well-Known Member
It’s unclear in the Bible.
There are many devils, many Satans, and many false light bringers/morning stars per Quran, and many deceivers, and these titles are from Jinn and humans. The Devil is the root and foundation of all of them.
There are human Shayateen per Quran too.
The concept of Lucifer in Quran can be seen that the evil companions to Humans from Jinn believe they are guided until death comes to them. They misguide from the path while believing they are guided.
How is that possible when they witness the holy spirit and power of God from that? That means they believe the holy spirit is evil and see God's power as acquired magic.
The concept Satan claims to be the guidance for humanity and even deceives himself he is a illumination and guidance, is important. He is false lucifer but devils from humans and Jinn all believe him to be the hero.
The devils from Jinn incite disbelievers to sin because they believe non-judgment and unconditional love is the way and believe sexual acts Abrahamic faiths condemn is the means to enlightenment and peace among humans. Including their belief the best form is bisexuality. They believe judgmental honorable type believers are evil.
They do not perceive they are fools including Iblis and they do not perceive themselves as havoc makers but believe they are bringing peace and harmony to the land. This is true of the devils of Jinn and Humans.
Its backward day opposite day all over.
Last edited:
How would you stretch 2 Peter 1:19 to fit this? Christians are supposed to wait for Satan to rise in their hearts? (I suppose that might fit that the antichrist is supposed to manifest before christ does--but that would be a psychological application of the Shadow being raised first before it can be individuated in a Jungian manner in each individual.)
Not only does the Latin Vulgate use the same word Lucifer in both Isiah 14:12 and 2 Peter 1:19, but the Greek Septuagint also uses the same Greek word in ἑωσφόρος in Is 14:12 and the Westcott-Hort translation uses the word φωσφορος in 2 Peter 1:19, which are slight variations of the same word.
Last edited:
What @Rival said.
With a footnote that some Christians have claimed that in Isaiah 14:4-15, verse 12 refers to "Lucifer" meaning the Devil, and thus shows him to be a fallen angel. Indeed the KJV translates it "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" but of course the entire passage ─ as Isaiah 14:4 makes clear and unambiguous ─ is addressed as a taunt to the overthrown "king of Babylon", though it's hard to say which king is the target.
What is translated as Lucifer in the KJV is in the biblical Hebrew "shining one, son of dawn" which is to say the planet Venus as the morning star, called both in Greek (φωσφόρος) and Latin (lucifer) 'bringer of light'. Which is why, as Rival said, it was used as a title for Jesus in the NT.
Brian2
Veteran Member
No, that link comes in the New Testament.
Rev 20:2, 12:9, and a couple of things Jesus said in the gospels.
Where does this belief originate, if not sourced in Tanakh (as the OP asked if the entities are the same across the Abrahamic texts)? As you've stated this is unique to Christianity, i.e the NT, I'm curious where you believe Satan became evil along the way?
Brian2
Veteran Member
I guess I see the New Testament as part of the Abrahamic Texts.
The serpent in Eden (Satan) lied to Adam and Eve and God punished the serpent for this.
Do you think that God was happy with the serpent or that the serpent was not Satan?
Yes, the NT is part of them.
There are many traditions about the serpent from before the time of Jesus and whilst one or two link it to Satan, as far as I know this was not the normative view at the time. Genesis itself calls the serpent the most cunning of the beasts of the field, thereby seeming to equate him with just the rest of the animals. This is a good, short read, and this paragraph might interest you:
The Serpent in the Garden of Eden and its Background | Bible Interp (arizona.edu)
"It has, however, been suggested that the Greek Septuagint translation in the third century B.C.E. already equated the “he” with the Messiah, in which case this would be the earliest known Messianic interpretation of Gen 3:15.[21] The evidence presented for this view is that the Septuagint still speaks of “he”, although rendering “offspring” or “seed” by the Greek word sperma, which is neuter, despite the fact that everywhere else in the Septuagint of Genesis the Hebrew word hu’, “he”, is translated by a word of the appropriate gender in Greek, whether autos, “he”, aute, “she” or auto, “it”. The Septuagint’s “he”, it has therefore been argued, most naturally does not refer to Eve’s offspring generally but to a specific masculine individual and it has been proposed that this is the Messiah. There is, however, a problem with this view. This is that it would be remarkable if the Septuagint understood the “he” as referring to the Messiah, since such an understanding is completely lacking in subsequent Jewish understanding of the verse. Even though the fulfilment of Gen 3:15 in the Messianic age is attested several centuries later in the Neofiti, Pseudo-Jonathan and Fragment Targums, the “he” is there still interpreted collectively (of the righteous Jews) and not of the Messiah.[22] In the light of all this it seems more likely that the Septuagint’s “he” is simply an over-literal translation of the Hebrew. Nevertheless, the idea of the Protoevangelium did emerge from it in the early church."
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
No not really. There are distinct differences between the Christian Satan and the Jewish Satan. There are also, in Judaism, a distinct difference between Satan and Lucifer, who is the King of Tyre. The term devil is not used in the Tanakh (OT). It is used in the New Testament.
In Christianity, Satan is a fallen angel who has become the God of this world. In Judaism, angels have no free will, so they do not rebel. Nor is there some second God of this world. HaSatan is simply an angel, who can only do what God allows him to do. His ability to tempt and accuse function to allow people to choose good of their own free will. It's a nasty job, but someone's gotta do it.
Lucifer is a Latin word that means "Light bringer." Light bringer refers to Venus, the morning star. It is part of a passage that describes the King of Tyre, not Satan. At least, that is the way Jews read it. Christians obviously have a different take.
If you include the Quran as an "Abrahamic text" that would be above my paygrade to comment on.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Judaism does not teach that the serpent was Satan. That is an idea only in the New Testament. Genesis itself simply says serpent, and never uses the word Satan. For us, it was simply a snake.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
In Christianity yes. But not in Judaism. In Judaism angels have no free will, so they are incapable of rebelling, even Satan.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Well, for Christians yes. For Jews this verse is about the King of Tyre.
AGain, for christians this is true but not for Jews. Genesis itself never mentions Satan. It only mentions a serpent, a snake. It groups this snake with the other animals in the garden, so not an angel or demon.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
It was only a rumor that the templers worshiped Baphomet -- one of the paranoid conspiracy theories of that day, and untrue. The templers were very successful and became resented by the people, which led to the gossip.
Muslims do not worship Baphomet -- they only worship Allah, which is the arabic word for God, specifically the God of Abraham.
I think most people today have never heard of Baphomet, nor do they care
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Brian2
Veteran Member
The Ezekiel 28 is about the King of Tyre and Christians also see it as having a secondary meaning about Satan due to the description of the one being spoken about.
Isa 14 also, about the King of Babylon, is seen this way, but probably the description is not as compelling as Ezekiel 28.
With Ezekiel 28 saying that this person was in Eden and a cherub etc it could be that the snake was more than an animal.
Then going from there, with the snake being punished by God, it could be said that this cherub did what was against the will of God.
The whole thing of angels not having free will and so only being able to do the will of God was certainly not the picture we get of Judaism at the time of Jesus where it looks that the Devil was indeed an evil being along with demons who possessed people. This seemed to be the view of Judaism, and Judaism ended up saying that Jesus cast out demons by the power of the prince of demons.