Satan?

[Monotheist 101]

Hey guys,

Whats the concept of Satan/Evil in Judaism?

How do you guys interpret the Original Sin story as the Christians like to call it? Why did Eve take the apple?

Appreciate the help

Thanks

 

[Monotheist 101]

No takers?

I guess the Jewish community on RF does not like me

Apologies if I hurt anyones feelings.

Shalom

 

[Tarheeler]

I doubt it has anything to do with you, Monotheist; we aren't the most active bunch on RF.

As for your questions, I'll try to be of some help. But you should also search through the Judaism DIR; these are questions that come up fairly often and there are several threads already dedicated to them.

Satan is the position of the accuser; it can be filled by almost anything and isn't necessarily bad and it certainly isn't the embodiment of ultimate evil.

Mankind was created with both a good inclination and a bad inclination; we can do either, and we can do them with spectacular results. Which one we follow is up to us.

Original sin is mostly a Christian idea that doesn't work well with Jewish theology. We are judged for what we do in our lives, and no one is condemned based on the actions of our ancestors.

Why Eve did what she did is a good question, and it has many possible answers. Personally, I think the Creation story is mankind's "coming of age": What use is free will and the ability to judge and decide right and wrong if we are sheltered for eternity and have no opportunity to use those gifts?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Original sin is mostly a Christian idea that doesn't work well with Jewish theology. We are judged for what we do in our lives, and no one is condemned based on the actions of our ancestors.

Why Eve did what she did is a good question, and it has many possible answers. Personally, I think the Creation story is mankind's "coming of age": What use is free will and the ability to judge and decide right and wrong if we are sheltered for eternity and have no opportunity to use those gifts?

Nicely said.

 

[Caladan]

No takers?

I guess the Jewish community on RF does not like me

Apologies if I hurt anyones feelings.

Shalom

Hey Monotheist,

You'll have to give us a break, in some DIRs I even allow a one week waiting period before I bump the thread, it has not been even half a day before your bump people are busy... probably more so because it is a Jewish holiday.
I'm sure more members will notice this thread fairly soon, and I'll try to throw my 2 cents in as well later on.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Hey Monotheist,

You'll have to give us a break, in some DIRs I even allow a one week waiting period before I bump the thread, it has not been even half a day before your bump people are busy... probably more so because it is a Jewish holiday.
I'm sure more members will notice this thread fairly soon, and I'll try to throw my 2 cents in as well later on.

Apologies I was not aware of the holiday, hope your enjoying the break. I tend to get impatient sometimes, I have weird patterns for frequenting forums, Ill be on for 2 weeks straight and then get busy with life for a few months. Past few days have been crazy, I know Im Muslim and not supposed to gamble, it was that time of the month, am a full time student was broke as, had to make $60 last a week..What do I do, I take it to the casino, 2 hours and Im up $700, the excitement kept me up all night on RF. Next day I go with $200 walkout with $1000, same thing was too excited to sleep, today I ended up going 3 times and lost everything..same thing cant sleep again, its four in the morning and Ive been hanging out with a bottle of bourbon and my billy..I reckon thats why I am blabbering so much...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The serpent who tricks Eve into eating the forbidden fruit.
Ha-Satan gave Adam a deck of cards and some dice.

 

[Levite]

I discussed these things in these five posts right here, and would be happy to clarify or expand on things.

 

[Caladan]

Apologies I was not aware of the holiday, hope your enjoying the break.

Like there's no tomorrow

I tend to get impatient sometimes, I have weird patterns for frequenting forums, Ill be on for 2 weeks straight and then get busy with life for a few months. Past few days have been crazy, I know Im Muslim and not supposed to gamble, it was that time of the month, am a full time student was broke as, had to make $60 last a week..What do I do, I take it to the casino, 2 hours and Im up $700, the excitement kept me up all night on RF. Next day I go with $200 walkout with $1000, same thing was too excited to sleep, today I ended up going 3 times and lost everything..same thing cant sleep again, its four in the morning and Ive been hanging out with a bottle of bourbon and my billy..I reckon thats why I am blabbering so much...

Gambling, thousands of dollars involved, and above all Bourbon... no wonder you are starting a thread about Satan in the Judaism DIR :cover:

Let me address your OP however.

Hey guys,

Whats the concept of Satan/Evil in Judaism?

Judaism is an old faith, and much literature was written in a time span of practically thousands of years, literature which was written in various geographical, cultural, and political circumstances which are often reflected in Hebrew and Jewish literature.
For example, there is a period in Judaism (Second Temple Period) in which a distinct dualistic worldview developed among several streams within Jewish society. This can strongly be seen in the Qumran sect, which many like to identify as the Essenes. A sect which may have presaged and passed the strong dual cosmology which teaches the battle between the Sons of Light and the Sons of Darkness to Christianity. Various extra-biblical texts exist which are related to this theology, much of it is typically Enochian lore which illustrates the descent of rebel fallen angels who engage in teaching humanity forbidden arts.
However on a whole, Judaism lacks this dualistic thought which still survives in Christianity (and maybe Islam). Christian dogma for example is strongly based on a war between Satan and God, and the souls of mankind caught in between.
While the Christian New Testament reflects this theology, the Hebrew Bible (or the Old Testament according to Christianity), lacks this theme. Satan, or rather HaSatan when discussing the one and only devil, and not some random human adversary does not have this demigod status as he does in Christianity. In fact in terms of appearance, Satan appears only a few times in the Hebrew Bible, especially when compared to the New Testament. In the Hebrew Bible, Satan may tempt humans to violate God's decree, for example leading king David to execute a census in Israeli society, however his role is very minor compared to the Christian devil and is still built in the frame of Hebrew cosmology where he is a prosecutor, or an advocate in the service of God's own court. For example in the Psalms 109:6 the scribe asks for Satan to prosecute a wicked enemy. In another example we see Satan accusing a High Priest, however the Lord rebukes Satan in this case. In another case, perhaps the most literary known one, Satan arrives to God's court along with all the other Sons of God, and has a wickedly poetic exchange of greetings and 'what you've been up to?' with God, all in a wonderful rhetorical spirit in my opinion. He succeeds in challenging God to painfully test Job until breaking point, at which point Satan tells God... you will see that his faith in you is in fact conditional.
So, technically in the Hebrew Bible while Satan's sinister reputation is more ambivalent than in the Christian version, his nature still remains questionable. He is more of a sophisticated trickster, perhaps with more class than the tricksters of some of the other world mythologies. But still there is nowhere in the Hebrew Bible an indication that Satan is the same arch-nemesis that he becomes in Christian scriptures and theology.

In daily life, Satan plays a very small role in Jewish tradition and consciousness. Jewish study, worship, and rituals are focused on God and his relationship with His People. Satan does not really play a major role in this framework.

How do you guys interpret the Original Sin story as the Christians like to call it? Why did Eve take the apple?

There is no strong sense of original sin in Judaism. Human beings have their strenghes and weaknesses. Their vanities and qualities. Every human being answers to their own decisions, actions, or lack of actions. And this is reflected in practicaly every Biblical protagonist and antagonist.
As for the fruit of of the Tree of Knowledge. I'm in the camp which believes it is a wonderfully basic allegorical narrative. The Tree of Knowldge of Good and Evil... once you have taken it's fruit, the forbidden fruit, you will know both good and evil. Up until that point in the story, Adam and Eve didn't know the difference. Their existence was of a blissful ignorance, they didn't have to worry about evil. Once they have eaten the fruit they began to understand, which also meant that evil entered their existence.
It is an allegorical tale of coming to terms with reality, and understanding that our decisions, even when we don't know any better create a long term process of cause and effect. And from then on, we have to take life's lesson, even as it involves suffering.
So in my personal opinion, there was no Sin. There is simply no other way that things would have turned out differently in the story.
Let's put it that way. If Adam and Eve never eaten from the fuit, the Bible would have been made up of a long tale of waking up to heavenly sunrises, eating exotic fruits, living in harmony in nature for an eternity. In other words, the Bible would have been a complete failure, which wouldn't sell even one copy because of lack of excitement.

Appreciate the help

Sure. I hope I got your thread going.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

For example, there is a period in Judaism (Second Temple Period) in which a distinct dualistic worldview developed among several streams within Jewish society. This can strongly be seen in the Qumran sect, which many like to identify as the Essenes. A sect which may have presaged and passed the strong dual cosmology which teaches the battle between the Sons of Light and the Sons of Darkness to Christianity.

Now there's a debate (actually two) waiting to happen.

 

[Caladan]

Now there's a debate (actually two) waiting to happen.

As I had suspicions that I am stepping into a sensitive territory here, especially since I already know some of my esteemed colleagues on RF well, you will notice I made sure to use words such as 'many like to', 'may have' as a spiritual armor for any incoming stings and challenges. :yes:

 

[Monotheist 101]

I discussed these things in these five posts right here, and would be happy to clarify or expand on things.

Hey thanks for the links..it did help..so basically Satan is a part of Human nature?

 

[Monotheist 101]

Like there's no tomorrow

Gambling, thousands of dollars involved, and above all Bourbon... no wonder you are starting a thread about Satan in the Judaism DIR :cover:

Yeh, Ive been self-reflecting this morning, really dropped the ball there, I hadn't touched alcohol in a year..Oh well whatever never mind.

This can strongly be seen in the Qumran sect, which many like to identify as the Essenes. A sect which may have presaged and passed the strong dual cosmology which teaches the battle between the Sons of Light and the Sons of Darkness to Christianity. Various extra-biblical texts exist which are related to this theology, much of it is typically Enochian lore which illustrates the descent of rebel fallen angels who engage in teaching humanity forbidden arts.

But how can Angels rebel without free-will?
What do you make of the Islamic interpretation of the devil being a jinn a separate third intelligent creation?

So, technically in the Hebrew Bible while Satan's sinister reputation is more ambivalent than in the Christian version, his nature still remains questionable. He is more of a sophisticated trickster, perhaps with more class than the tricksters of some of the other world mythologies. But still there is nowhere in the Hebrew Bible an indication that Satan is the same arch-nemesis that he becomes in Christian scriptures and theology.

In daily life, Satan plays a very small role in Jewish tradition and consciousness. Jewish study, worship, and rituals are focused on God and his relationship with His People. Satan does not really play a major role in this framework.

What I am still not sure of is whether he is viewed as a conscious intelligent entity.
My personal opinion is that Human beings are solely responsible for our actions because we have free-will, although we are open to suggestion. Satan holds no power over us, except the power of suggestion.

Depending on how you view the last paragraph, I would imagine he would play a major role in our lives, but at the end of the day he would not be responsible for our actions because we physically and consciously decide to carry them out. I dont know if that makes sense.

There is no strong sense of original sin in Judaism. Human beings have their strenghes and weaknesses. Their vanities and qualities. Every human being answers to their own decisions, actions, or lack of actions. And this is reflected in practicaly every Biblical protagonist and antagonist.
As for the fruit of of the Tree of Knowledge. I'm in the camp which believes it is a wonderfully basic allegorical narrative. The Tree of Knowldge of Good and Evil... once you have taken it's fruit, the forbidden fruit, you will know both good and evil. Up until that point in the story, Adam and Eve didn't know the difference. Their existence was of a blissful ignorance, they didn't have to worry about evil. Once they have eaten the fruit they began to understand, which also meant that evil entered their existence.
It is an allegorical tale of coming to terms with reality, and understanding that our decisions, even when we don't know any better create a long term process of cause and effect. And from then on, we have to take life's lesson, even as it involves suffering.
So in my personal opinion, there was no Sin. There is simply no other way that things would have turned out differently in the story.

I view original sin, as the first bad decision made as a consequence of free-will coupled with our gullible and Satans suggestive nature.

Sure. I hope I got your thread going.

It wasnt about the thread rather I was interested in hearing different opinions from within the Jewish community..but thanks anyways :bow:

 

[Caladan]

But how can Angels rebel without free-will?

That's more of a theological question which requires personal interpretation. Like I said, some streams within Second Temple Judaism developed a strong sense of dualism which was neither necessarily dominant in Jewish mainstream then or now. It is possible that much of the legacy of these Jewish sects and the literature they left behind were instrumental in shaping Christian and Islamic theology in the centuries to come. In any case, it seems that in Islamic theology Iblis also had a free will, as he refused to bow to Adam. In general, in Islamic tradition Jinn have free will, and are capable of making good or bad decisions. The story of the two angels Harut and Marut in the Qur'an for example, is in my opinion (and according to scholars) rooted in the ancient Jewish Enochian literature I'm talking about.

What do you make of the Islamic interpretation of the devil being a jinn a separate third intelligent creation?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

What I am still not sure of is whether he is viewed as a conscious intelligent entity.
My personal opinion is that Human beings are solely responsible for our actions because we have free-will, although we are open to suggestion. Satan holds no power over us, except the power of suggestion.

Again, I don't view Satan as a literal supernatural entity, but rather as a literary instrument in the Hebrew Bible. Although in this sense, he does seem to hold power over human beings, either by tempting them or causing them to preform certain actions (the power to influence in my opinion) or by actually striking down their loved ones, property, or their own flesh. In the spiritual sense Satan in the Hebrew Bible has the power of an advocate, a prosecutor who takes part in the trial of man. But to me, that is all academic. These are simply useful tools to present a moral of the story in Biblical narratives.

Depending on how you view the last paragraph, I would imagine he would play a major role in our lives, but at the end of the day he would not be responsible for our actions because we physically and consciously decide to carry them out. I dont know if that makes sense.

The bottom line is, that in Judaism there is an 'evil inclination' and an inclination to do good, and people's desires, interests and thoughts experience everything in between in this spectrum. At the end of the day, we make our own decisions in life, and I would also venture to say that we are responsible for our own POV, thoughts, or beliefs.

I view original sin, as the first bad decision made as a consequence of free-will coupled with our gullible and Satans suggestive nature.

That hasn't really been a big element in my Jewish background.

 

[Levite]

Hey thanks for the links..it did help..so basically Satan is a part of Human nature?

These days, some Liberal Jews see the satan or the yetzer ha-ra (chaotic impulse) as purely metaphorical ways to view parts of human nature or the human psyche.

Others stick a bit closer to the traditional view that the satan is the title of an angel (not always the same angel) who is the angel set in supervision by God over the yetzer ha-ra and similar phenomena. Some understand the yetzer ha-ra to merely be part of the human psyche, essentially the uncontrolled id, but other, much more old-fashioned and traditional thinkers, see the yetzer ha-ra as both part of the human psyche but also a negative spiritual force, both within the soul and in general within the universe.

There is a tremendous range of ideas and understandings of these sorts of things amongst Jews of different communities and movements, and throughout history.

 

[Avi1001]

These days, some Liberal Jews see the satan or the yetzer ha-ra (chaotic impulse) as purely metaphorical ways to view parts of human nature or the human psyche.

This interpretation makes sense to me, and it actually means that we all have a little bit of the devil in us, don't we ? Well, maybe some more than others

Also, where it gets complicated, is that it sometimes takes a little bit of the sharp edge to cause change, so what might appear to be trouble making in the short term sometimes ends up being good for the long term. What that really means, I think, is that it takes a lot of serious thought and effort to know good from evil, and it is not always obvious from the onset.

 

[Levite]

This interpretation makes sense to me, and it actually means that we all have a little bit of the devil in us, don't we ? Well, maybe some more than others

Also, where it gets complicated, is that it sometimes takes a little bit of the sharp edge to cause change, so what might appear to be trouble making in the short term sometimes ends up being good for the long term. What that really means, I think, is that it takes a lot of serious thought and effort to know good from evil, and it is not always obvious from the onset.

The thing is, the yetzer ha-ra isn't entirely evil. That's why I consistently translate it along the lines of "chaotic impulse." There's a great sugiya in the Gemara, in Yoma (69a or b, I think), where the Rabbis capture the yetzer ha-ra personified, and lock it away. In a short time, they find that not a single egg has been laid in all the land, no houses have been built or finished, no marriages made or consummated, no business done. The whole world comes to a grinding halt, and they realize that the world needs the yetzer ha-ra to survive, and they have to let it go.

That urge is at the heart of ambition, competition, sexuality, creativity, and who knows what else. In moderation, properly channelled, the yetzer ha-ra gives impetus to nearly everything we do. It only becomes evil when it is uncontrolled, unchannelled, given free rein and allowed to dictate all our actions.

By the same token, many of our great rabbis later on have noted that evil often starts out as good that goes awry, or is twisted somehow. This seems borne out by how many people we often think of as evil never considered themselves such, but to the contrary, considered themselves good people doing good work. Hell, read Mein Kampf: Hitler thought he was a desperately-needed savior for his people. He doesn't spend almost 700 pages telling you what an evil nightmare and abomination he and all his plans are. He's probably not an ideal example, because he was also probably stark raving insane, but I'm sure the balance of his moral compass was way off-- the same guy who was our worst nemesis also loved dogs and embraced ethical vegetarianism....

But in our own lives we often see the problem play out: for example, we've all probably encountered or seen people who devote themselves to work or business to provide for their family and do good works in society then become workaholics and greedy, alienate their families and end up oppressing the poor or their workers. That's the yetzer ha-ra out of control. Just a little of it makes for good ambition, healthy competition, a drive to do well for ourselves and those we love. But too much represents the devolution into excesses of greed and lust for power and influence.

And so on.

 

[Avi1001]

The thing is, the yetzer ha-ra isn't entirely evil. That's why I consistently translate it along the lines of "chaotic impulse." There's a great sugiya in the Gemara, in Yoma (69a or b, I think), where the Rabbis capture the yetzer ha-ra personified, and lock it away. In a short time, they find that not a single egg has been laid in all the land, no houses have been built or finished, no marriages made or consummated, no business done. The whole world comes to a grinding halt, and they realize that the world needs the yetzer ha-ra to survive, and they have to let it go. .

Great sugiya, like putting a genie in a bottle.

That urge is at the heart of ambition, competition, sexuality, creativity, and who knows what else. In moderation, properly channelled, the yetzer ha-ra gives impetus to nearly everything we do. It only becomes evil when it is uncontrolled, unchannelled, given free rein and allowed to dictate all our actions..

He sounds like a Tasmanian devil dog .

By the same token, many of our great rabbis later on have noted that evil often starts out as good that goes awry, or is twisted somehow. This seems borne out by how many people we often think of as evil never considered themselves such, but to the contrary, considered themselves good people doing good work. Hell, read Mein Kampf: Hitler thought he was a desperately-needed savior for his people. He doesn't spend almost 700 pages telling you what an evil nightmare and abomination he and all his plans are. He's probably not an ideal example, because he was also probably stark raving insane, but I'm sure the balance of his moral compass was way off-- the same guy who was our worst nemesis also loved dogs and embraced ethical vegetarianism.....

Evil incarnate.

But in our own lives we often see the problem play out: for example, we've all probably encountered or seen people who devote themselves to work or business to provide for their family and do good works in society then become workaholics and greedy, alienate their families and end up oppressing the poor or their workers. That's the yetzer ha-ra out of control. Just a little of it makes for good ambition, healthy competition, a drive to do well for ourselves and those we love. But too much represents the devolution into excesses of greed and lust for power and influence.

And so on.

Life is about finding the balance, sometimes so hard to do. Unfortunately, our culture rewards aggressive behavior.

 

[psychoslice]

I doubt it has anything to do with you, Monotheist; we aren't the most active bunch on RF.

As for your questions, I'll try to be of some help. But you should also search through the Judaism DIR; these are questions that come up fairly often and there are several threads already dedicated to them.

Satan is the position of the accuser; it can be filled by almost anything and isn't necessarily bad and it certainly isn't the embodiment of ultimate evil.

Mankind was created with both a good inclination and a bad inclination; we can do either, and we can do them with spectacular results. Which one we follow is up to us.

Original sin is mostly a Christian idea that doesn't work well with Jewish theology. We are judged for what we do in our lives, and no one is condemned based on the actions of our ancestors.

Why Eve did what she did is a good question, and it has many possible answers. Personally, I think the Creation story is mankind's "coming of age": What use is free will and the ability to judge and decide right and wrong if we are sheltered for eternity and have no opportunity to use those gifts?

I like that, very nicely said.