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Satan

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Jaiket said:
I'm sure it has come up before, but it seems a curious affair to me.

This God created Lucifer, a nice chap by all accounts, who then decided by his own free-will (which I thought angles lacked but not the point) to become evil, as some kind of pastime I presume.

Concerning Lucifer's covetous nature, why did God decide to make him as so?

If he was created perfect how did he become imperfect?

Where does the definition of perfection allow for tainting?

Why was he allowed to wander Earth corrupting humans?

Is Lucifer really Satan?

What is difference in the Hebrew accounts and Christian tradition?
In all of the King James Bible, the name "Lucifer appears but ONCE. In the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah. That seems to be not a lot to hang this whole mythology on doesn't it?

It appears in Dante's "Inferno" four times in Cantos 6. 31, and twice in canto 34.

Martin Luther refers to it once in his Address to the Nobility and speaks of it thusly:
"But now we see at Rome nothing but contempt of the Gospel and of prayer, and the
service of tables, that is the service of the goods of this world; and the government of the Pope agrees with the government of the Apostles as well as Lucifer with Christ, hell with heaven, night with day; and yet he calls himself Christ's vicar and the successor of the Apostles."

(Martin Luthers Address to the Nobility, Respecting The Reformation Of The Christian Estate 1)

I wonder what the actual history of the name and story is, since it does not seem to be Biblical.

Regards,
Scott
 

Yanni

Active Member
So who is Satan? Well, I've heard some say Satan is the "root of all evil." I've also heard people say Satan is a fallen angel who is the arch enemy of God. Let's stop and give it some thought. The only way Satan could become the arch enemy of God is if God created angles with free will. And, if God is the Almighty and Everlasting God, Creator and Sustainer of the entire universe, then doesn't He have the power to just destroy Satan just by saying Satan should cease to exist? Isn't God perfect? Well, Orthodox Judaism believes that God is perfect, and that angels do NOT have free will. (To side track, Jewish tradition believes that humans are even greater than angels, precisely because we have free will and the power to decide whether we serve God properly and earn eternal reward, or to disobey God and get punished. Angels don't have the ability to earn eternal reward, and they therefore only exist for their particular missions that God commands them to do. This is very difficult to explain, but angels are merely a representation of the Divine will). If that's the case, then who is Satan?
The answer to this question is easy to comprehend and beautiful for those who truly wish to believe it. Angels do not have free will. Angels perform certain tasks that God commands them to perform (we won't get into the details). Satan was also given a task (and he is one heck of a master at what he does). Satan's task is to test us humans with various passions, cravings, and pleasures that ultimately disconnect ourselves from God and spiritual strivings by giving in too much to this world. This world is not the only existence. After we die, we go to a much better place. But what we earn in that much better place depends on how we behaved in this world. The simple understanding of is that Satan's task is to try to make us sin. However, that is not entirely accurate. According to Orthodox Judaism, when Satan says "sin," he's really saying "DON'T sin and let me see you become great by passing my test." This is mind boggling! Everyone has assumed that Satan is evil. No. What Satan presents to us is evil; all he's doing is carrying out his mission in giving us humans the opportunities for real spiritual growth. Human beings have natural tendencies and cravings, just like animals. What really makes us great is when we transform ourselves from an animal being to a spiritual being; we transform our bodies into holy beings. It is precisely overcoming our natural tendencies to do the will of God that gains us the eternal benefits that we all desire.
One may ask, "Well, if Satan is not the cause of all evil, then how come bad things happen in the world (like illness, crime, natural disasters, terrorism, etc.). How can God, Who is perfectly good, allow such things to happen?"
The answer is not easy, but God truly is the ultimate Source of all goodness. But when bad things happen, we tend to lose our faith for a slight moment. Why? Because we can't perceive God as being bad. It must be Satan is the one who did it. No. What we perceive (with our limited human intelligence) to be bad is really part of God's Master Plan for the world. Whatever happens to a person is for his/her ultimate benefit. Although we may not see the good now, sometime later, the goodness will be revealed, either later in life through some insight into past and present events, or when we leave this world and heaven tells us the goodness. If we view the events in our lives that way, that Satan is really (quietly) cheering us on to overcome his tests, then life becomes much more beautiful. The reason why God allows bad things to happen sometimes is not about Him being angry and a God Who likes to punish. God wants everyone to earn the most pleasurable thing imaginable: basking in His Glory in the World to Come. We can't understand what that means, but the Sages say that one moment in the World to Come is more pleasurable than all the pleasures ever since the creation of the world placed into a bottle. God wants us to enjoy that, but not if we aren't first cleansed of our sins.
I hope this has given you an insight into the role Satan plays in Orthodox Judaism, and I hope my explanations can help give meaning to those in search for it.
 

earlwooters

Active Member
Satan doesn't exist. I have a friend who has been trying to sell his soul to him for years. He either does not exist or he has ran out of money. Of course my friends soul may not be worth much, or maybe he doesn't have one. When your dealing with things that don't exist, there's always an if, and or maybe.
 

quadman19

FRY THAT CHICKEN
it sounds like


  • God = Religious Authorities/Beliefs
  • Satan = anyone who doesn't follow the Religious Authorities/Beliefs​
how is it any different that from a moral perspective

  1. creator creates evil character - 1. drug dealer buys rabid pitbull
  2. allows evil character to exist - 2. drug dealer allows rabid pitbull to roam free
  3. evil character causes problems - 3. rabid pitbull causes problems
  4. creator says it's to teach "lessons" -4. drug dealer says its to teach "lessons"
 

Blackdog22

Well-Known Member
To show that God allows chance to anyone to come to him, regardless of whom or
what they were. In the end, God knew that the time would come for him to expel
all the bad in this "judgement day".


Right... So... Satan is allowed to roam free for millions(billions?) of years without interruption, but the old guy picking up sticks in the old testament for his family on the Sabbath had just gone too far and God couldn't possibly hold back the command to slaughter him. Lets not forget about the flood.

Why do you reckon God has such a soft spot for Satan, but is so quick to swallow us up with the earth or command the storms to consume us all in vicious agony? It all makes 0 sense to me.
 

Blackdog22

Well-Known Member
it sounds like


  • God = Religious Authorities/Beliefs
  • Satan = anyone who doesn't follow the Religious Authorities/Beliefs​
how is it any different that from a moral perspective

  1. creator creates evil character - 1. drug dealer buys rabid pitbull
  2. allows evil character to exist - 2. drug dealer allows rabid pitbull to roam free
  3. evil character causes problems - 3. rabid pitbull causes problems
  4. creator says it's to teach "lessons" -4. drug dealer says its to teach "lessons"


Rofl, yeah that pretty much sums it up. I love line four..
 

Yanni

Active Member
it sounds like


  • God = Religious Authorities/Beliefs
  • Satan = anyone who doesn't follow the Religious Authorities/Beliefs​
how is it any different that from a moral perspective

  1. creator creates evil character - 1. drug dealer buys rabid pitbull
  2. allows evil character to exist - 2. drug dealer allows rabid pitbull to roam free
  3. evil character causes problems - 3. rabid pitbull causes problems
  4. creator says it's to teach "lessons" -4. drug dealer says its to teach "lessons"

God allows evil character to exist because he gave us the most precious gift of all: free will. Satan's job, as I explained above, is to present difficult tests of doing "evil" things. Our gift of free will gives us the opportunity to overcome our natural desires and tendencies and to NOT give in to Satan's tests. As I said, Satan is NOT bad. It's what he presents to us that is bad. Is Judaism the only religion that has this doctrine? And God is an extremely understanding "individual." He knows that we will not pass every test. He just wants us to try. If trying to earn eternal reward through passing the tests of life is not what this world is all about, then what's the point of life on this world? I believe Orthodox Judaism's view on Satan is beautiful. WE create evil in this world, not God, not Satan, and not anything other than WE ourselves.
 

quadman19

FRY THAT CHICKEN
God allows evil character to exist because he gave us the most precious gift of all: free will. Satan's job, as I explained above, is to present difficult tests of doing "evil" things. Our gift of free will gives us the opportunity to overcome our natural desires and tendencies and to NOT give in to Satan's tests. As I said, Satan is NOT bad. It's what he presents to us that is bad. Is Judaism the only religion that has this doctrine? And God is an extremely understanding "individual." He knows that we will not pass every test. He just wants us to try. If trying to earn eternal reward through passing the tests of life is not what this world is all about, then what's the point of life on this world? I believe Orthodox Judaism's view on Satan is beautiful. WE create evil in this world, not God, not Satan, and not anything other than WE ourselves.

Well if god allows evil things to happen because we have freewill, then he has no right to ***** and complain about it and send you to make you an eternal shishkabob. If god allows for bad things to happen as a "test", he is not moral at all and unworthy of our attention. The child with cancer is being "tested"?? :no: I don't know why you have to create an external character that tempts you to do bad things as a test. Why can't you just take responsibility for yourself and learn from personal experience and not have a scapegoat? The religious idea of life being pointless without an eternal reward is absolutely selfish nonsense. So if there isn't an eternal reward after you die, then helping another person or animal is pointless?? You have to admit that this is quite selfish. The only thing i want in return for helping others, is that they do the same for all beings. Life only has meaning if you put meaning into it. For me, I don't need an afterlife to make things like reading, hanging out with family and friends, practicing compassion, helping others, or enjoying hobbies to have purpose or meaning.
 

Yanni

Active Member
Well if god allows evil things to happen because we have freewill, then he has no right to ***** and complain about it and send you to make you an eternal shishkabob. If god allows for bad things to happen as a "test", he is not moral at all and unworthy of our attention. The child with cancer is being "tested"?? :no: I don't know why you have to create an external character that tempts you to do bad things as a test. Why can't you just take responsibility for yourself and learn from personal experience and not have a scapegoat? The religious idea of life being pointless without an eternal reward is absolutely selfish nonsense. So if there isn't an eternal reward after you die, then helping another person or animal is pointless?? You have to admit that this is quite selfish. The only thing i want in return for helping others, is that they do the same for all beings. Life only has meaning if you put meaning into it. For me, I don't need an afterlife to make things like reading, hanging out with family and friends, practicing compassion, helping others, or enjoying hobbies to have purpose or meaning.

Ok. First of all, God does NOT send people to become eternal shishkabobs. God wants everybody to have that eternal pleasure, but it has to be earned. If a person doesn't repent in this world and sincerely change his ways to be a better person and follow God's laws, then when he dies, his soul is still stained with those sins that he committed throughout his life. Hell is only a temporary "purifying center." I don't know what hell is really like, but many Jewish commentators say that the most difficult thing to cope with in heaven is when heaven shows us what we COULD HAVE BEEN, what we could have accomplished in our lives, and what kind of reward we COULD HAVE received. People will recognize all the moments in their lives that they could have used more constructively to do good. So don't get the idea that God is absolute in that if you don't listen to Him once, then you're toast. It's NOT like that (at least in Judaism). Those "bad" things that happen in life is actually a gift from God. The more one suffers on this world (which of course we don't want; everyone wants to have a life of good health and happiness), the less he will have to suffer in heaven. But the suffering is for our ultimate benefit. God isn't sadistic. To our limited human intelligence, these things aren't easily understandable. Suffering on this world is like God's "bittersweet gifts."
And regarding meaning in one's life, all those meaningful events, people, etc. will all disappear one day. And that's it? You won't see those people ever again? Regarding morals, yes, people can be inherently moral. But without a higher purpose, why does someone NEED to be moral? If there are no repercussions for our actions, and I know that this is the only life I will ever live, then why can't I go out and party in any way I can? If I want different things in life, why get it the hard way? Just steal them (if you know how to evade the police)! This world is so fleeting. We humans are no more invulnerable than the maggot or the worm? We can die from a heart attack at any moment! Just think of all the unbelievable intricacies of the human body. Everything has a specific function and purpose. You think an accident can create such a "perfect" accident?
 
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quadman19

FRY THAT CHICKEN
Ok. First of all, God does NOT send people to become eternal shishkabobs. God wants everybody to have that eternal pleasure, but it has to be earned. If a person doesn't repent in this world and sincerely change his ways to be a better person and follow God's laws, then when he dies, his soul is still stained with those sins that he committed throughout his life. Hell is only a temporary "purifying center." I don't know what hell is really like, but many Jewish commentators say that the most difficult thing to cope with in heaven is when heaven shows us what we COULD HAVE BEEN, what we could have accomplished in our lives, and what kind of reward we COULD HAVE received. People will recognize all the moments in their lives that they could have used more constructively to do good. So don't get the idea that God is absolute in that if you don't listen to Him once, then you're toast. It's NOT like that (at least in Judaism). Those "bad" things that happen in life is actually a gift from God. The more one suffers on this world (which of course we don't want; everyone wants to have a life of good health and happiness), the less he will have to suffer in heaven. But the suffering is for our ultimate benefit. God isn't sadistic. To our limited human intelligence, these things aren't easily understandable. Suffering on this world is like God's "bittersweet gifts."
And regarding meaning in one's life, all those meaningful events, people, etc. will all disappear one day. And that's it? You won't see those people ever again? Regarding morals, yes, people can be inherently moral. But without a higher purpose, why does someone NEED to be moral? If there are no repercussions for our actions, and I know that this is the only life I will ever live, then why can't I go out and party in any way I can? If I want different things in life, why get it the hard way? Just steal them (if you know how to evade the police)! This world is so fleeting. We humans are no more invulnerable than the maggot or the worm? We can die from a heart attack at any moment! Just think of all the unbelievable intricacies of the human body. Everything has a specific function and purpose. You think an accident can create such a "perfect" accident?

We have a biological need to be moral because it allows the species to thrive and survive on a whole. Animals have a sense of morality that lets them feel empathy and help others in distress. We need to be moral from a personal view because we can see the results of doing something positive for another. It has an effect on us, others, and the environment. Can't the higher purpose be to practice kindness and compassion so that others can live a life with minimal suffering? Yes there are repercussions for your actions and they do not need to rely on an afterlife to have an effect on you and your surroundings. Sure you want different things in life and you can go steal things, but you'll have to face things like jail or being arrested and it effects your life right now. I can't agree with your idea of suffering in this world as a benefit and an improvement in a hereafter because of our differing religious viewpoints. That's just something we won't see eye to eye but we can at least agree that there are plenty of reasons to be moral without an afterlife right? :foryou:
 

crocusj

Active Member
Regarding morals, yes, people can be inherently moral. But without a higher purpose, why does someone NEED to be moral? If there are no repercussions for our actions, and I know that this is the only life I will ever live, then why can't I go out and party in any way I can? If I want different things in life, why get it the hard way? Just steal them (if you know how to evade the police)! This world is so fleeting.
Because we are social animals that require morals to succeed. An individual does not need to have morals but a group does (hence, the police) and that individual who insists on living outside the group morals will be punished or ostracised in the same way they are in any social animal grouping.

We humans are no more invulnerable than the maggot or the worm? We can die from a heart attack at any moment! Just think of all the unbelievable intricacies of the human body. Everything has a specific function and purpose. You think an accident can create such a "perfect" accident
Clearly it can, 'cos here we are. Though we are far from perfect.
 

Yanni

Active Member
And where did that first spark of dust that made the "big bang" come from, huh? It was just there? Does that make any logical sense whatsoever? You think the reproductive system that I think almost every species has (and their male and female counterparts) was just happenstance? What would be the purpose of reproduction? My understanding of reproduction is to populate the world and ensure the continuation of a species. But why would an accident need to have a continuum of its "accidental" creatures? Something doesn't make any logical sense here.
 

Twig pentagram

High Priest
And where did that first spark of dust that made the "big bang" come from, huh? It was just there? Does that make any logical sense whatsoever? You think the reproductive system that I think almost every species has (and their male and female counterparts) was just happenstance? What would be the purpose of reproduction? My understanding of reproduction is to populate the world and ensure the continuation of a species. But why would an accident need to have a continuum of its "accidental" creatures? Something doesn't make any logical sense here.
Just because you have questions that cannot yet be answered doesn't mean that your god is real.
 

crocusj

Active Member
And where did that first spark of dust that made the "big bang" come from, huh? It was just there? Does that make any logical sense whatsoever? You think the reproductive system that I think almost every species has (and their male and female counterparts) was just happenstance? What would be the purpose of reproduction? My understanding of reproduction is to populate the world and ensure the continuation of a species. But why would an accident need to have a continuum of its "accidental" creatures? Something doesn't make any logical sense here.
Well how should I know? But we are here, of that there is no doubt. And we and the unverse are a natural phenomena and it takes too big a leap for me to accept that is by magic. Not too big a leap for you, obviously.
 

Yanni

Active Member
Just because you have questions that cannot yet be answered doesn't mean that your god is real.

I'll give you the best proof there is that there is a living God.
I have been asked why I believe in "this junk" of believing the laws of the Torah as being the Word of a living God. Let me make something clear. Judaism is the ONLY religion in the world that has made a claim that God revealed Himself on Mount Sinai to THE ENTIRE JEWISH NATION, which was roughly about 3 million people. All 3 million people (men, women, and children) all heard God speak to them. Now if someone can name me another religion who has a similar claim, please do so. But I guarantee you there isn't, because most other religions are based on the testimony of ONE or A FEW men who CLAIMED God spoke to them and revealed His Word to them. But why didn't any other religion claim that God revealed His Word to THE WHOLE nation? The answer is simple. Because no one can convince millions of people that they were all present at a specific event, all at the same time and place, unless it ACTUALLY HAPPENED. We are a unique nation in that we are the ONLY nation who has made this claim in history. And if God really wanted to exchange us, why didn't He reveal Himself to His ENTIRE new nation? Simple. Because He promised Abraham that the Jewish people would never be destroyed (which is why through all the wanderings and persecutions and annihilation attempts on our existence, we are still here), and that He would NEVER exchange us for another people.
You want proof that God exists? Our existence has defied all the laws of "natural" history (like the strong is supposed to defeat the weak). The IMPOSSIBILITY of the existence of the Jewish nation today is the best proof there is.
 
There is another OT passage which I think is referring to Lucifer/Satan, that is Ezekial 28:12-19. It starts out talking about the King of Tyre, but from the content appears to bear meaning on two different levels. "You were in Eden, the garden of God" and "You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God.....You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you." "Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth..."

Many of those who believe Satan is a fallen angel, believe that he and other angels rebelled long before the creation of Adam and Eve. This passage though places this "guardian cherub" in Eden, still as a good being. I think it should be considered that the problem inside of Lucifer began after the creation of Adam and Eve. He saw how much God loved them, and he began to feel a lack of love-jealousy-although God's love for him had not changed.
 
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