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saudi man asking some questions ..

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Well for me, it appears most atheists or agnostics demand empirical evidence to believe.

I submit that the Judeo G-d and the Christian God (one in the same of course for a Christian) has provided more than a multitude of signs and wonders that are very apparent and real and simply cannot be explained in the natural. That is the evidence for God.

Not in all cases, but in many hundreds of cases it is simply the testimony of a number of eye witnesses. And the response of the skeptic is nothing more than "the testimony of the eye witness is the most unreliable of evidence." Really? That's lame. Especially when the events number in the hundreds. Everyone is a liar. Sure. If one waits until God appears to them in their own bedroom, well good luck with that.

Then there are other miracles that are observed by far more than 10,000 eye witnesses such as at Fatima and Zeitoun, Egypt. Again, all liars? Then we have science who have de facto proved the inexplicable qualities found in the Shroud of Turin. Again, the counter explanations just do not hold up. All they speak of is agenda to me.

As a matter of fact - there is no proof, - and mass hallucinations are fairly well understood.

It just takes a believing group, - and one person to say - LOOK! Mary in the clouds! Did you see her?

For instance the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima obviously wasn't a miracle. The sun didn't really dance in the sky.

1. It would have been noticed elsewhere.

2. There would have been consequences.

3. They were told to stare at the sun, - which can obviously cause eye problems, including spots, double images, jumping eye, causing the sun to appear to jump, etc.

But very obviously NO MIRACLE.

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gsa

Well-Known Member
Well for me, it appears most atheists or agnostics demand empirical evidence to believe.

I submit that the Judeo G-d and the Christian God (one in the same of course for a Christian) has provided more than a multitude of signs and wonders that are very apparent and real and simply cannot be explained in the natural. That is the evidence for God.

Not in all cases, but in many hundreds of cases it is simply the testimony of a number of eye witnesses. And the response of the skeptic is nothing more than "the testimony of the eye witness is the most unreliable of evidence." Really? That's lame. Especially when the events number in the hundreds. Everyone is a liar. Sure. If one waits until God appears to them in their own bedroom, well good luck with that.

Then there are other miracles that are observed by far more than 10,000 eye witnesses such as at Fatima and Zeitoun, Egypt. Again, all liars? Then we have science who have de facto proved the inexplicable qualities found in the Shroud of Turin. Again, the counter explanations just do not hold up. All they speak of is agenda to me.

These are among the worst arguments for Christianity. First, the numbers are totally inconsequential when measured against both other miracle claims outside of the alleged “Judeo-Christian” tradition, as well as when they are measured against the billions of humans who have existed since the dawn of the species. Second, there are also alleged miracles in these other traditions that are incompatible with Christianity, including Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam.

You scoff at the demand for personal revelation, but you claim that your god is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent. For such a being, it should be easy, even desirable, to appear to every single human being and to instill them with actual and certain knowledge that this god exists, loves them, sent his only son to die for them, etcetera. But there is no such knowledge. There is no such certainty.

There are, in fact, no eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ ministry, death and supposed resurrection. There are sayings transmitted over the course of decades and reduced to writing in the contradictory, anti-rational accounts of the Gospels, and the ravings of a devout Jewish convert who never met the man and whose own accounts seem to contradict much of what is contained within the gospels, which were written by people well after Paul was buried.

This is without getting into the formation of the Hebrew scriptures, which are about as reliable as the Book of Mormon.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
As a matter of fact - there is no proof, - and mass hallucinations are fairly well understood.

It just takes a believing group, - and one person to say - LOOK! Mary in the clouds! Did you see her?

For instance the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima obviously wasn't a miracle. The sun didn't really dance in the sky.

1. It would have been noticed elsewhere.

2. There would have been consequences.

3. They were told to stare at the sun, - which can obviously cause eye problems, including spots, double images, jumping eye, causing the sun to appear to jump, etc.

But very obviously NO MIRACLE.

*

*

Well I am not going make you weary with another detailed reiteration of all of the facts of that event. But I will say this much to your comments ---

>>As a matter of fact - there is no proof, - and mass hallucinations are fairly well understood.<< I find that answer to be of the lamest way to dismiss this phenomenon. Provide examples where 50,000 or more gave almost identical testimonies of what they witnessed and it was later demonstrated to be false.

>> It just takes a believing group, - and one person to say - LOOK! Mary in the clouds! Did you see her?<< Again, it has no bearing whatsoever to the facts of this case. Why not read the written testimonies of secular scientists or doctors or atheists who were also eye witnesses? Or those of certain credible unbelievers more than 10 miles away?

>> 1. It would have been noticed elsewhere.<< Why would it? You think God is limited to what you insist upon? As already noted, there are a number of testimonies from some as far away as 30 miles.

>>2. There would have been consequences.<< Says you, once again. God can suspend natural laws and cosmic laws if He so chooses. He did make the soaked and muddy ground and the clothes of all those present bone dry after 12 minutes. Or, once again, did they all imagine that?

>> 3. They were told to stare at the sun, - which can obviously cause eye problems, including spots, double images, jumping eye, causing the sun to appear to jump, etc.<<And the professionals testimonies (besides many others) marveled at the very fact they could look directly at the sun for minutes on end without the slightest discomfort or harm. Do you have medical records of those present who suffered eye damage?

>> But very obviously NO MIRACLE.<< Sorry, totally disagree. It is obvious to me of an agenda of those who desire not to believe.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
These are among the worst arguments for Christianity. First, the numbers are totally inconsequential when measured against both other miracle claims outside of the alleged “Judeo-Christian” tradition, as well as when they are measured against the billions of humans who have existed since the dawn of the species. Second, there are also alleged miracles in these other traditions that are incompatible with Christianity, including Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam.

You scoff at the demand for personal revelation, but you claim that your god is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent. For such a being, it should be easy, even desirable, to appear to every single human being and to instill them with actual and certain knowledge that this god exists, loves them, sent his only son to die for them, etcetera. But there is no such knowledge. There is no such certainty.

There are, in fact, no eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ ministry, death and supposed resurrection. There are sayings transmitted over the course of decades and reduced to writing in the contradictory, anti-rational accounts of the Gospels, and the ravings of a devout Jewish convert who never met the man and whose own accounts seem to contradict much of what is contained within the gospels, which were written by people well after Paul was buried.

This is without getting into the formation of the Hebrew scriptures, which are about as reliable as the Book of Mormon.

Look, I never said there were not miracles in other religions. In fact I believe there have been a few, but they are paltry in magnitude by comparison. I ask you to document anything that compares to Fatima, or Zeitoun, or The Shroud of Turin, or Guadalupe, or the hundreds of weeping statues. But Christianity does not stand on miracles for its claim to the truth. There is a preponderance of evidence and reason that supersedes any other creed from my experience and knowledge. I was merely providing evidence, about the only kind, some atheists demand.

As to your claim that an "omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent" God should be expected to make himself known to every denizen on the planet, why is that? You presume to know better what God must do than He Himself?

There are many ways of providing evidence for Jesus long past the time of his death. But there is one who was present and has appeared many times to share the truth with believers. That would be the Mother of God, Mary.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I don't believe in absolute truth, so for me no one path holds the only legitimate truth.

That is something only God himself can decide. As we are a created being, we are subject to Gods truth....not our own.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Well I am not going make you weary with another detailed reiteration of all of the facts of that event. But I will say this much to your comments ---

>>As a matter of fact - there is no proof, - and mass hallucinations are fairly well understood.<< I find that answer to be of the lamest way to dismiss this phenomenon. Provide examples where 50,000 or more gave almost identical testimonies of what they witnessed and it was later demonstrated to be false.

>> It just takes a believing group, - and one person to say - LOOK! Mary in the clouds! Did you see her?<< Again, it has no bearing whatsoever to the facts of this case. Why not read the written testimonies of secular scientists or doctors or atheists who were also eye witnesses? Or those of certain credible unbelievers more than 10 miles away?

>> 1. It would have been noticed elsewhere.<< Why would it? You think God is limited to what you insist upon? As already noted, there are a number of testimonies from some as far away as 30 miles.

>>2. There would have been consequences.<< Says you, once again. God can suspend natural laws and cosmic laws if He so chooses. He did make the soaked and muddy ground and the clothes of all those present bone dry after 12 minutes. Or, once again, did they all imagine that?

>> 3. They were told to stare at the sun, - which can obviously cause eye problems, including spots, double images, jumping eye, causing the sun to appear to jump, etc.<<And the professionals testimonies (besides many others) marveled at the very fact they could look directly at the sun for minutes on end without the slightest discomfort or harm. Do you have medical records of those present who suffered eye damage?

>> But very obviously NO MIRACLE.<< Sorry, totally disagree. It is obvious to me of an agenda of those who desire not to believe.


This is all pure bull.

If God exists - and wants us to follow him, - why are these events always claimed by groups of religious people, in extremely religious countries?

Why wouldn't this God show miracles to unbelievers, - to bring them to belief?

The reason is obvious, - they didn't actually happen. They are hallucinations.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
This is all pure bull.

If God exists - and wants us to follow him, - why are these events always claimed by groups of religious people, in extremely religious countries?

Why wouldn't this God show miracles to unbelievers, - to bring them to belief?

The reason is obvious, - they didn't actually happen. They are hallucinations.

>>Why wouldn't this God show miracles to unbelievers, - to bring them to belief?<<

I believe he has. And many became believers.

But to be honest I really cannot answer your question satisfactorily. It’s a mystery for me. I keep thinking of the film The Brothers Karamazov -----

Alexei (to his atheist brother):“I feel sorry for you, Ivan.”

Ivan: “Why is that?”

Alexei:“Because you want to believe there is a God, but you cannot.“
 

Mukkled

Member
here is my second question :


is it true that ... there is a religious party in this world hide in the shadow " secret society"and they are the biggest domination in the world , and they have huge power allows them to manipulate your thoughts.. in other words they know what are your thoughts and they can change it inside your won head without you knowing it ?
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
here is my second question :


is it true that ... there is a religious party in this world hide in the shadow " secret society"and they are the biggest domination in the world , and they have huge power allows them to manipulate your thoughts.. in other words they know what are your thoughts and they can change it inside your won head without you knowing it ?

There are all kinds of Secret Societies - but the power to manipulate the thoughts in your head, - NO!

*
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
>>Why wouldn't this God show miracles to unbelievers, - to bring them to belief?<<

I believe he has. And many became believers.

But to be honest I really cannot answer your question satisfactorily. It’s a mystery for me. I keep thinking of the film The Brothers Karamazov -----

Alexei (to his atheist brother):“I feel sorry for you, Ivan.”

Ivan: “Why is that?”

Alexei:“Because you want to believe there is a God, but you cannot.“

You apparently missed my meaning, and last sentence.

The reason we only hear about miracles connected to believers, is because they are not true.

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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
here is my second question :


is it true that ... there is a religious party in this world hide in the shadow " secret society"and they are the biggest domination in the world , and they have huge power allows them to manipulate your thoughts.. in other words they know what are your thoughts and they can change it inside your won head without you knowing it ?

Yes, I think its called 'Advertising' :D
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
...
why should i believe in god ? .....
Peace be on you. (Your english is very educated though)
1- Just as feeling for parents is present in human, in-born feeling and affinity is present in all creature for their Maker, Fashioner, Creator, Evolutor -- The God.
2- Belief in God is essential to know well-pathed purpose of life, rights of God, self and others.

3-"Islam claims that the Creator of this universe is a living God and that He reveals Himself to His creatures in this age in the same manner in which He used to reveal Himself in the ages past. This claim can be tested in two ways. God may either manifest His signs direct for a seeker after Him, or the seeker may come to believe in God by studying the life of a person to whom God has revealed Himself. "
Source: Why I Believe in Islam
 

Bobbyh

Infinite Nothingness
okay this is my first question :
why should i believe in god ? and why not to believe in god ?

To answer your question I need to define the terms by dissecting your use of language.

why should = an objective reason
i = your specific selves perspective
believe in = have confident opinion in favor of
not to believe in = have a less than confident opinion in favor of
god = (I can't define this for you so please clarify) but I'll replace the concept of god with a generic variable (G) instead of a specific definition

The first part of your question "why should" is not applicable to reality because objectivity is subject to more than one perspective

Secondly, do you understand what your specific self is exactly and how do you define it? There is no actual boundary in reality of where your self begins or ends.

But now to answer your question....

You should believe in some interpretations of God because it's nice to have limitations, foundations, and inspirational leadership while living. Logic supports understanding the reason for existence and at the core are God worthy qualities.

You should not believe in some other interpretations of God because it's ego forming, ego threatening, and conflicts with actual predictable and reproducible behaviors of observed logic.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
being agonist is not logical neither possible for humans , if you dont know then you dont know the absolute truth or the ultimate truth .. then you dont know if god exist or not or hell exist or not , religions mistakes are mistakes because they are based on our 5 senses and understanding ability and knowledge and cultuer , if you dont know they are correct or not then you have to take the hell idea seriously and keep looking if it is true or not because there is people saying god contacted them and the one who don't believe will go to hell ! its like you dont know if there was some one dying inside that house or not and someone else came to you telling you she is dying and you have to help by calling ambulance and then he left leaving you some evidence about that , would you call the ambulance or not ? okay lets say in the first time you did and there was no one inside that house , this thing happens again and someone asked the same thing .. would you just walk beside the house and say i dont care ? there could be a someone inside ? or are you going to check inside ? because you can't go inside the house .. you will check the evidence to make sure if there was a really someone or not .. but the problem you cant figure out if its real or just like the old time when someone lied to you , even though it's safer to call the ambulance for help even if it was a lie,okay lets say that there is a five people came to you .. every one is asking for help that there is someone inside that house needs help , and every one gave you an evidence for that ( or saying this is an evedance ) and its in some sorta away could be an evedance .. but each of the five tellers told you that there house is filled with gas containing some virus and it will effect the whole city , and each one of the five told you cant help any of the other four because they are fake and tey will effect you if you helped them. what would you do in this situation ?you cant just say i don't know , mainly you will have to call everyone specialized in this and ask them for help .. but they all say different opinions ... of you said you don't know then the terrible thing will definitely happen to you if it was true and you dont know if its true or not , and if you chosed one of the "five" there is a chance of 20% you will save your self .

its not possible because you have to believe in something " but this also make atheism unacceptable as believe system " but its way much better , the reason for this is every religious can pretend to be an agonist or atheist and then start to mind control you to make you believe in his religion , you need a temple and some sorta of a pray and religious practices like "satanism" that religious people cant do and naver do to make sure that "other" is like you and you dont become an easy bray for any one want you to believe in his ideas especially if you were good at anything like acting and singing , you will be easily mind controlled and you will be weak and not to trust anyone wich rais tones of other issues .
Saying that you don't know and identifying as agnostic is in no way giving up the search. In actuality, agnostics seem to be the most eager to explore the supernatural. They merely aren't ready to accept anything that is not sufficiently supported with evidence. Hard to knock that.

And your analogy is flawed. In your example there were human lives at stake. With belief we have no objecitve reasoning to think that is the case. There is no life on the line. That is why saying, "I'm just not sure yet until I get more information," is a reasonable position.
 

AmyintheBibleBelt

Active Member
hello all.. Okay, just ignore my title because I wanted to make it interesting.. even though it's totally correct :}


I want to ask some questions.. but I need solid answers, I'm terribly uneducated and I don't know anything about religion, and to be honest I don't like the west at all.. I respect some individuals only, and lets say the secularist duds for now, my questions will be about a lot of things and not just religion.. I'm sorry if this not the right place.. I'm a little bit of troll but also so serious about these questions. I don't read and I hate reading. the questions are for everyone , muslims , christians , athiests , budist , and saitnism
w00t.gif
..etc .



okay this is my first question :

why should i believe in god ? and why not to believe in god ?

No problem. Westerners don't care for the middle east either.
 
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