• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Science and atheism inconsistent?

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
All those different names for water do not mean that all those people had a totally different idea in their minds of what water is. The Tuaregs have something like 14 different words for water because they live in the desert, and water is extremely important to them. So they define it by how they find it. Island cultures have different names for water based in it's behavior as a large body, like the sea, because they travel on the surface of those large bodies of water. Different words for it, different experiences of it, and yet it's all still water. The same water that you and I experience, in our own way and by our own labels. So, are there really all these different waters? Or are they really just different ways that we humans experience water, and convey their experiences to others? The thing to understand, here, is that H2O is just a molecular formulation. It needs no names or stories from us to exist. The names and stories are the result of how we humans interact with and understand it. You're trying to use the differences in the ways we humans experience and understand what we experience to claim that what they experience somehow isn't "real". And that's just nonsensically biased. Humans have experienced something, universally, and they've all conceptualized it in their own respective ways, just as we do with everything we experience. I'm sorry that you're such an anomaly in this, and that you have not had this universal experience, or that you have chosen to ignore/reject it, or whatever. But that doesn't change the facts. And the facts are that the vast majority of humans across time, place, and many cultures have all experienced something they all labelled and contextualize in their own unique ways. And in our culture, we call it "God".
Humans are born with no way of comprehending love. The idea had to be taught to us so that when we experienced it, we could identify that experience. But we would have experienced it, regardless, as we all do, in some form or other. So all the culture does for us it give us a conceptual box to put our experiences in, and can use to convey them to others. This is not a sign of some sort of deceit. It's just how shared information creates a context for shared experiences.
The fact that people amend the information set over time and with more experience is hardly indicative of anything sinister. I'm quite sure that most of us have amended our conception of love throughout our lives. This doesn't mean that love is not "real", or that it is some sinister cultural infection. It's a complex human experience, like many others. It is experienced both universally, AND uniquely. Just as is "God".
Knowledge of water can be gained by objective experience.
So this "God" & water analogy just doesn't work for me. For one thing, a singular
god isn't universal, since many societies had whole pantheons of them....Krom, Zeus,
Thor, Athena, etc, etc. Yet water behaves the same at every place & time in history.
Moreover, these gods lack the tangible qualities of water....allowing one to heft it in a
bucket, drink it, swim in it, float upon it, boil it, freeze it, mix it, etc.
Gods aren't amenable to physical detection. Instead, people speak only of their
feelings as the means of knowing their gods. Feelings don't make things real.

As for the feeling of love, humans comprehend it, as we do other emotions.
It exists, but it's existence isn't evidence for the existence of gods.
 
Last edited:

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
You vindictive sarcastic rant continues unabated. I could recommend some meds.
Don't do meds, so no, but thanks for thinking of me.

In the end, there have been times I have been called out for making incorrect or misinformed statements - and I realized that the person calling me out was correct. And do you know what I did? I owned up, finished it, and tried to make sure I buttoned up a little tighter going forward. Want to guess how hard it was to move on? It wasn't. Not that I am asking you to admit to anything of the sort with this statement now - wouldn't want you to break your brain. Just giving what I feel is good advice no matter the time, place or circumstance.

You take care now Mr. Dragon.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Don't do meds, so no, but thanks for thinking of me.

In the end, there have been times I have been called out for making incorrect or misinformed statements - and I realized that the person calling me out was correct. And do you know what I did? I owned up, finished it, and tried to make sure I buttoned up a little tighter going forward. Want to guess how hard it was to move on? It wasn't. Not that I am asking you to admit to anything of the sort with this statement now - wouldn't want you to break your brain. Just giving what I feel is good advice no matter the time, place or circumstance.

You take care now Mr. Dragon.

Hear, hear!
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
Not if everyone was naming their own motorcycles. And if Honda made all the motorcycles in the world, why would it need to put it's name on them? C'mon, stop trying so hard not to understand, please.
"Spiritually", all men do know that one God created them. We've just developed different names and images for that God, and different stories about how and why it happened because we've all lived in different times, places, and cultures. How can you possibly not understand this???
They are not "many different gods", they are many different names for, images of, and ways of conceptualizing the universal ideal that you and I call "God". That ideal generally being defined as 'the great mystery source, sustenance, and purpose of all that is'. If you keep insisting on confusing the ideal with the symbols (words, images, stories, etc.) you will NEVER understand theism. And if you think I am stupid enough to buy into your attempt at conflating the symbols with the reality of "God", you're wasting your time.


My hypothetical stated that if all motorcycles on the planet, were made by only one company, then everyone owning a bike would know the name of that company. Who could possibly argue with that? It is totally irrelevant what the name of the company is, or how many ways you can name your motorcycle. It only matters that everyone would know the company that made the motorcycle. Therefore, If all man(woman too) were created by the handiwork of one God, there should still be some independent, innate, spiritual, or genetic evidence, that connects all humans to this creator. There is no evidence of this. In fact, the evidence clearly suggests the opposite. Why is this spiritual connection only culturally-specific? Why is it that your religion can be predetermined by where you are born? It seems to me that it is you that is trying so hard not to understand, by positing such a ridiculous straw man.

Do you seriously believe that the followers of Hinduism, Shintoism, Confucianism, Taoism, Mahayana Buddhism, Mormonism("the plurality of the Gods"), Christianity(Tritheism), Wicca, Henotheism, and many Polynesian, Americas, and Chinese religions, are spiritually aware of only ONE true God? I think not, since these are all polytheistic religions. I think that they also would be aware and defensive of their own true Gods. Try replacing the Christian images of Christ in the churches, with images that depicts Christs as Brown, Black, Yellow, or Red, and see what will eventually happen to the church's congregation. So, no it is our cultures that create their own deities, in the language and image of that culture. Period. This is what we would expect to see, and this is what we do see.

Clearly, concretism, the apple, and reification fallacy had no effect on you. If you want to keep conflating Polytheism, Paganism, Shamanism, Monotheism, Animism, and Hellenism, with an intrinsic belief in only one true God, then it is you that will never understand the meaning of being intellectually and logically consistent.
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
Most atheists in the West are atheists for this reason.



If I believed this I would be a strong agnostic, atheist, or a strict materialist, and I am not. I do not use this criteria for belief. I am a scientist and believe that the criteria for the nature of our physical existence is methodological naturalism.

There are only two choices here. Are you saying that people should believe in anything, even if there is no rational or factual foundation for that belief?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Don't do meds, so no, but thanks for thinking of me.

In the end, there have been times I have been called out for making incorrect or misinformed statements - and I realized that the person calling me out was correct. And do you know what I did? I owned up, finished it, and tried to make sure I buttoned up a little tighter going forward. Want to guess how hard it was to move on? It wasn't. Not that I am asking you to admit to anything of the sort with this statement now - wouldn't want you to break your brain. Just giving what I feel is good advice no matter the time, place or circumstance.

You take care now Mr. Dragon.

. . . because of your vindictive aggressive way of posting rants we have not communicated enough for me to admit anything.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
There are only two choices here. Are you saying that people should believe in anything, even if there is no rational or factual foundation for that belief?

You only want to hear a cut and dried materialist worldview or nothing, and here we do not agree. I have given my stand and that is it.
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
You only want to hear a cut and dried materialist worldview or nothing, and here we do not agree. I have given my stand and that is it.


That is not true. This question is very important. What I want to hear is your answer. We both know what it is that delineates the real from the imaginary. Again, "Are you saying that people should believe in anything, even if there is no rational or factual foundation for that belief?". Do you agree with this statement or not? Sorry, for asking two questions. Just pick one.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Knowledge of water can be gained by objective experience.
So this "God" & water analogy just doesn't work for me. For one thing, a singular
god isn't universal, since many societies had whole pantheons of them....Krom, Zeus,
Thor, Athena, etc, etc. Yet water behaves the same at every place & time in history.
Moreover, these gods lack the tangible qualities of water....allowing one to heft it in a
bucket, drink it, swim in it, float upon it, boil it, freeze it, mix it, etc.
Gods aren't amenable to physical detection. Instead, people speak only of their
feelings as the means of knowing their gods. Feelings don't make things real.

As for the feeling of love, humans comprehend it, as we do other emotions.
It exists, but it's existence isn't evidence for the existence of gods.
Can you lift love in a bucket? Can you lift beauty in a bucket? Can you lift honor or fairness in a bucket? Do we all have to experience these phenomena in exactly the same way, and then describe them in exactly the same way for them to be deemed "real", to you? God, love, beauty, honor, fairness, and so on are all experienced conceptually. They are all ways of understanding what and how we experience being in the world, as humans. You aren't proposing that all the other conceptual experiences are unreal, are you? Why not? They aren't made of matter, either, and that seems to be why you can't accept the conceptual experience of "God" as being a valid experience of reality.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Can you lift love in a bucket? Can you lift beauty in a bucket? Can you lift honor or fairness in a bucket?
No.
I also cannot lift gravity, light, envy, darkness or charity.
Does your asking those questions prove something?
Do we all have to experience these phenomena in exactly the same way, and then describe them in exactly the same way for them to be deemed "real", to you? God, love, beauty, honor, fairness, and so on are all experienced conceptually. They are all ways of understanding what and how we experience being in the world, as humans. You aren't proposing that all the other conceptual experiences are unreal, are you? Why not? They aren't made of matter, either, and that seems to be why you can't accept the conceptual experience of "God" as being a valid experience of reality.
Your feelings for your god mean nothing to me.
I can accept that you have them, but I don't experience them.
So they don't inform my view of reality.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
That is not true. This question is very important. What I want to hear is your answer. We both know what it is that delineates the real from the imaginary. Again, "Are you saying that people should believe in anything, even if there is no rational or factual foundation for that belief?". Do you agree with this statement or not? Sorry, for asking two questions. Just pick one.

My only possible response is that people should not believe things that are in conflict with the objective verifiable evidence of our physical existence that is the basis for science and Methodological Naturalism.
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
My only possible response is that people should not believe things that are in conflict with the objective verifiable evidence of our physical existence that is the basis for science and Methodological Naturalism.


Does that mean that no one should believe in a man being created by the will of a God, and a woman formed from the rib of a man, because it is "in conflict with the objective verifiable evidence of our physical existence"? Which is also in conflict with any scientific "Methodological Naturalism"?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Sure proves he knows how to ask a rhetorical
question if not necessarily when, or why.
People are always trying to win arguments by asking a question.
"If evolution is true, why are there still monkeys!"
Notice that there's no question mark after that question.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Does that mean that no one should believe in a man being created by the will of a God, and a woman formed from the rib of a man, because it is "in conflict with the objective verifiable evidence of our physical existence"? Which is also in conflict with any scientific "Methodological Naturalism"?

Creation of our natural existence and humanity by God by natural methods is in harmony with science is not in conflict with science, but 'a woman formed from the rib of a man,' would be in conflict with science and natural methods.
 
Last edited:

ecco

Veteran Member
As with what happened with another rant from a poster I WILL NOT respond, in part because you have misrepresented my post and did not respond to what wrote, and in part it is a venomous vindictive response and not remotely of interest in a civil dialogue.
I'll just repeat...
You don't like my responses and refer to them as "vindictive sarcasm" and state that they do not "contribute to the dialogue". However, you are entirely comfortable with saying that atheists need to satisfy some spiritual needs. You are entirely comfortable with making sweeping demeaning and factually incorrect statements like "atheists are often rejected and shunned by their prior peers".

Your post is, at best, hypocritical.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
No.
I also cannot lift gravity, light, envy, darkness or charity.
Does your asking those questions prove something?

Your feelings for your god mean nothing to me.
I can accept that you have them, but I don't experience them.
So they don't inform my view of reality.
I suspect there are some number of people among us that don't experience beauty, either. They are clearly in the minority, but they are here. And sadly, I suppose there are some among us who have never experienced love. Who have become convinced that love is just an ideological fantasy, like god, or justice. That it's just some induced emotionalism engaged in by fools; busily fooling each other. But these anomalies aside, the overwhelming majority of human beings experience their own existence via these kinds of ideals: love, beauty, honor, god, and so on. So I think it's you who has been short-changed, either by your own insistence, or by some short-circuit in the cognitive wiring, perhaps. Or by whatever. And for that, you have my sympathy.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
So I think it's you who has been short-changed, either by your own insistence, or by some short-circuit in the cognitive wiring, perhaps. Or by whatever. And for that, you have my sympathy.
Bob & Ray are in a desert with no water.
Ray sees a mirage....an oasis in the distance.
Bob doesn't see it.
Should Ray feel sympathy for Bob?
Nah.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
When someone presents evidence of an undeniable nature that the bite of a radioactive spider can give a human the ability to spin webs and use them to jump from building to building I will admit I was wrong to believe that Spiderman was just the creation of Stan Lee's fertile mind.

But isn't that what I stated, exactly? That if someone did indeed provide such evidence that you'd be a fool to then continue to deny? Hello? Are you there?

That is such a ridiculous hypothetical that it should not be asked without a big winky attached to it. My comment about Spiderman was posted to show just how ridiculous your "God evidence" post was.

Let's cut to the chase.
Do you believe that someday someone will present undeniable evidence of God?
Do you believe that someday someone will present undeniable evidence of Spiderman?

When I referred to history...
More important, at least to me, is the vast amount of evidence that god, gods, God are nothing more than the creations of man's imaginings...
 
Top