Science and Religion Converge

[AxisMundi]

Meow Mix beat me to it and I fully support her replies which are consistent with what my own research (i.e. reading peer reviewed studies) into these subjects have indicated.

Meow Mix rocks.

A great pity she isn't into recently divorced grandfathers. Oh well.

Hmm, wonder if I'm too old for gender reassignment surgery, and if she is single?

 

[jarofthoughts]

Meow Mix rocks.

A great pity she isn't into recently divorced grandfathers. Oh well.

Hmm, wonder if I'm too old for gender reassignment surgery, and if she is single?

She does indeed rock. ^_^

I'm unsure of her attraction to recently divorced recently sex-changed grandmothers though. She'll have to tackle that one herself...

 

[McBell]

Agreed on the crystal healing &c.

But what about things like Reflexology... or Eastern medicine?

I've never heard of this general notion that there is no such thing as alternative medicine... it certainly exists here in the UK....

“Pharmaceutical companies are the enemy
They promote drug dependency
At the cost of the natural remedies
That are all our bodies need
They are immoral and driven by greed.
Why take drugs
When herbs can solve it?
Why use chemicals
When homeopathic solvents
Can resolve it?
It’s time we all return-to-live
With natural medical alternatives.”

And try as hard as I like,
A small crack appears
In my diplomacy-dike.
“By definition”, I begin
“Alternative Medicine”, I continue
“Has either not been proved to work,
Or been proved not to work.
You know what they call “alternative medicine”
That’s been proved to work?
Medicine.”
Source

​

 

[jarofthoughts]

“You know what they call “alternative medicine”
That’s been proved to work?
Medicine.”
Source

​

Tim Minchin is awesome!

 

[Meow Mix]

Meow Mix rocks.

A great pity she isn't into recently divorced grandfathers. Oh well.

Hmm, wonder if I'm too old for gender reassignment surgery, and if she is single?

LOL! Thank you... unfortunately there's a woman who may yet wear my ring. Well, not unfortunately for me

 

[Octavia156]

Ok so by your definitions :

Placebo = Medicine too?


If not, why? They both work...

 

[jarofthoughts]

Ok so by your definitions :

Placebo = Medicine too?


If not, why? They both work...

The placebo effect is well documented and quite real, but it is not always what certain people think it is. Here is what medterms.com has to say about it:

"Placebo effect: Also called the placebo response. A remarkable phenomenon in which a placebo -- a fake treatment, an inactive substance like sugar, distilled water, or saline solution -- can sometimes improve a patient's condition simply because the person has the expectation that it will be helpful. Expectation to plays a potent role in the placebo effect. The more a person believes they are going to benefit from a treatment, the more likely it is that they will experience a benefit.

To separate out this power of positive thinking and some other variables from a drug's true medical benefits, companies seeking governmental approval of a new treatment often use placebo-controlled drug studies. If patients on the new drug fare significantly better than those taking placebo, the study helps support the conclusion that the medicine is effective.

It has been shown that placebos have measurable physiological effects. They tend to speed up pulse rate, increase blood pressure, and improve reaction speeds, for example, when participants are told they have taken a stimulant."

While we do not yet have a complete understanding of the mechanisms involving how a placebo works, it is well known that stress and discomfort can cause the body to produce cortisol, often known as the stress hormone, which can "steal" resources away from one's immune system. Also, seeing as pain is largely a psychological thing, a placebo can have uses in that area as well.

In other words, the placebo is well known to the medical and scientific community and is in fact practically used in certain circumstances, and in that respect you could call it "medicine" in the sense that it is part of medicine's overall repertoire. However, it is not considered medicine in the sense that it is seen as a drug.

 

[Octavia156]

"Placebo effect: Also called the placebo response. A remarkable phenomenon... can sometimes improve a patient's condition simply because the person has the expectation that it will be helpful. Expectation to plays a potent role in the placebo effect. The more a person believes they are going to benefit from a treatment, the more likely it is that they will experience a benefit.

Therefore you could say "Alternative" medicine is any Placebo-type response that consistently works?

This is the essence of Magick for me. {Magick = Will power}.


I'm glad that the medical community do accept this phenomenon - perhaps this is another example of where Science and Religion converge?
The Power of chemistry vs the Power of belief?

I like to keep an open mind. I see the wonders of modern medicine and I admire doctors and physicians of any kind... they are life savers after all. But then I also grew up on 'alternative/holistic/complimentary' therapies, my mother distrusted doctors, and my granmother hasn't seen a doctor since she last gave birth in 1952. As such I never saw my GP - ever. If I had something wrong with me i was taken to the homeopath or the chinese herbalist &c. I was always healed. A family friend beat cancer through nutrition therapy, another had her life saved by her reflexologist who diagnosed a serious thyroid problem before it began to show symptoms.

I am a Scientist - I'm willing to entertain the hypothesis that it was all placebo or random anomaly. However, the amount of data I have experienced on this so called "Placebo effect" makes me admire its power (if harnessed) as much if not more so than that of doctors. Its the ability to HEAL YOUSELF through belief and mind power alone.

A doctor tells a man it is physically impossible that he will never walk again, but by sheer strength of Will and belief he gets up and walks.

Why is this power of belief and Will not taken seriously?
Why do people so vehemently poo-poo the things they can't as yet explain or do themselves?

 

[jarofthoughts]

Therefore you could say "Alternative" medicine is any Placebo-type response that consistently works?

No. Placebo is placebo. It is not an excuse to tell people that crystal-healing works.

This is the essence of Magick for me. {Magick = Will power}.

Lowered stress levels does not equal willpower. Also, there is no such thing as magic, no matter how you spell it.

I'm glad that the medical community do accept this phenomenon - perhaps this is another example of where Science and Religion converge?

No. There are no examples where Science and Religion converge. They are, at their very foundation, incompatible.

The Power of chemistry vs the Power of belief?

Placebo IS chemistry. Your body is chemistry. Your brain is chemistry. Your emotions are chemistry. You are chemistry. Placebo is just way of triggering those chemical reactions.

I like to keep an open mind. I see the wonders of modern medicine and I admire doctors and physicians of any kind... they are life savers after all. But then I also grew up on 'alternative/holistic/complimentary' therapies, my mother distrusted doctors, and my granmother hasn't seen a doctor since she last gave birth in 1952. As such I never saw my GP - ever. If I had something wrong with me i was taken to the homeopath or the chinese herbalist &c. I was always healed. A family friend beat cancer through nutrition therapy, another had her life saved by her reflexologist who diagnosed a serious thyroid problem before it began to show symptoms.

We can all get lucky at times but remember that the plural of anecdote is not data. Until any of these methods can show a consistent statistical effect they are nothing but flukes.

I am a Scientist - I'm willing to entertain the hypothesis that it was all placebo or random anomaly.

Possibly. The placebo effect can be significant in certain cases.

However, the amount of data I have experienced on this so called "Placebo effect" makes me admire its power (if harnessed) as much if not more so than that of doctors. Its the ability to HEAL YOUSELF through belief and mind power alone.

Nonsense. The amount of data indicates that while significant in areas such as pain relief and overall boost of the immune system the placebo effect is limited. This is not a life-raft for "alternative medicine" to cling on to. It is a fairly well understood psychologically induced chemical effect that is also being used by "mainstream" medicine.

A doctor tells a man it is physically impossible that he will never walk again, but by sheer strength of Will and belief he gets up and walks.

Again, an anecdote does not a piece of evidence make. Doctors make mistakes just like everyone else.

Why is this power of belief and Will not taken seriously?

It is. Large amounts of research and studies have taken place to document the placebo effect and it is routinely included as an element in double-blind studies.

Why do people so vehemently poo-poo the things they can't as yet explain or do themselves?

Because evidence is king, emperor and dictator in the world of science. And that is how it must be. Got no evidence? Sorry, but then you've got no case. Period.

 

[AxisMundi]

LOL! Thank you... unfortunately there's a woman who may yet wear my ring. Well, not unfortunately for me

Many years of happyness to you both.

 

[painted wolf]

Cool, then we agree. I'd love to get images of my brain before and after ritual. Anyone willing to lend us Occultists an fMRI scanner? no? Guess our results will have to remain subjective for now

you don't need an fMRI scanner to test this.
You can conduct several different sensory experiments to test it.

wa:do

 

[Octavia156]

you don't need an fMRI scanner to test this.
You can conduct several different sensory experiments to test it.

wa:do

I agree.

But what about the more subtle senses, like 'Awareness' or 'confidence' or 'mental silence'?

I'd love to see a brain scan of someone who could silence their internal dialogue at Will...

 

[jarofthoughts]

But what about the more subtle senses, like 'Awareness' or 'confidence' or 'mental silence'?

Those aren't senses mate.
From the Oxford Online Dictionary: "a faculty by which the body perceives an external stimulus; one of the faculties of sight, smell, hearing, taste, and touch".

I'd love to see a brain scan of someone who could silence their internal dialogue at Will...

You mean during meditation? That's been done several times.

2 minutes of Googling gave me this:
Brain scans show meditation changes minds, increases attention (June 25, 2007)
Brain Scans Reveal Why Meditation Works | LiveScience
http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c148211/norm-meditation425.jpg

 

[David M]

I'm a physics grad student, don't have much in the way of published yet (never bothered with undergrad publishing) so I don't know if the word "physicist" applies to me yet -- but close enough.

Frubals for such a great post.

 

[Octavia156]

Those aren't senses mate.
From the Oxford Online Dictionary: "a faculty by which the body perceives an external stimulus; one of the faculties of sight, smell, hearing, taste, and touch".



You mean during meditation? That's been done several times.

2 minutes of Googling gave me this:
Brain scans show meditation changes minds, increases attention (June 25, 2007)
Brain Scans Reveal Why Meditation Works | LiveScience
http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c148211/norm-meditation425.jpg

Oh sweet!

Well then thats more evidence for me then. Mystic practises are proven to work!
But then I already knew that.

I didn't need a brain scan to know that my meditation works. But I needed a brain scan to prove it to you.

And this goes back to earlier posts - why would a mystic care about proving his results to others? He doesn't need to - he's proved it to work for himself. Thats all that matters - right?



Yes I used the term 'sense' loosely.
A more accurate description would have been 'mental faculties' - thank you for pointing that out mate.

 

[Octavia156]

Also, there is no such thing as magic, no matter how you spell it.

There's no such thing as magic as you define it, no. But there is by my definition:
Magick [pr: Mage-ik] is the Science and Art of causing change according to one's Will.

Thus me writing this post is Magick. All Willed acts are Magickal acts - by my definition - non-magickal acts include all those born out of desire or oppression.

The Magician believes in Nothing but his own Will.

Ultimately the practise of MAGICK IS where Science and Religion converge, for it is through the us of the Scientific Method that the Magician becomes his own God.

MAGICK = The Method of Science, the Aim of Religion.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Oh sweet!

Well then thats more evidence for me then. Mystic practises are proven to work!
But then I already knew that.

I didn't need a brain scan to know that my meditation works. But I needed a brain scan to prove it to you.

And where did this nonsense come from?
I've never said meditation doesn't work, and in fact there are several studies that outline not only that it works but also how it works, as those scans bear witness of. Heck, I've even practised it for some years myself when I was exploring Buddhism.

But there is nothing "mystical" about it.
Why does everything have to be "magic" with you people?
Aren't the natural phenomena and processes that goes on around you enough?

And this goes back to earlier posts - why would a mystic care about proving his results to others? He doesn't need to - he's proved it to work for himself. Thats all that matters - right?

Only as long as we agree that there is no such thing as magic or the supernatural and that calling oneself a "mystic" is nothing but pretentious crap.

You're a dude practising meditation.
Calling it anything else is nonsense and a desperate attempt to appear interesting and mysterious.

 

[jarofthoughts]

There's no such thing as magic as you define it, no. But there is by my definition:
Magick [pr: Mage-ik] is the Science and Art of causing change according to one's Will.

Thus me writing this post is Magick. All Willed acts are Magickal acts - by my definition - non-magickal acts include all those born out of desire or oppression.

And I just gave your "mage-eek" the finger.
Hey, I was causing change (raising my middle finger) according to my will (I really wanted to). Guess I'm practising "mage-eek" too. Perhaps that warrants calling myself a "mystic".

Ultimately the practise of MAGICK IS where Science and Religion converge, for it is through the us of the Scientific Method that the Magician becomes his own God.

MAGICK = The Method of Science, the Aim of Religion.

More nonsense... >_<
Science and religion CANNOT converge. They are based on two utterly and completely incompatible ways of thinking.
And the fact that you are (desperately?) trying to mystify something as simple as performing any conscious action speaks volumes of how pretentious the whole thing really is.
Heck, I dunno... Maybe that crap gets you laid with some dim-witted wiccans or something, but please, don't try to pass it off as something real or even valuable.
Humanity has already seen one Deepak Chopra.
I'm not sure it will survive another...

 

[McBell]

And this goes back to earlier posts - why would a mystic care about proving his results to others? He doesn't need to - he's proved it to work for himself. Thats all that matters - right?

Unless said mystic is trying to convince others that his results should be considered 'medical'.

 

[Octavia156]

@jarofthoughts

I've thought about your posts today. You win this argument hands down of course... i don't disagree with your POV - because it is the only sensible one.

I also agree that mysticism is pretentious. Its extremely so! But it is Real (for some people). Its not Religious, super-natural non-sense, its an advanced form of meta-cognition and mental reprogramming.

I also agree that to use terms like magic &c sounds stupid to some people. I am stupid for thinking that using these terms with people who do not understand my definitions is foolish and will always amount to confusion and miscommunication. I should know better - but this has been interesting for me - I have learned my lesson: Communication is only possible between people who speak the same language.

You have called me delusional, but I assure I am not so. One of my vocations in life is as a teacher of Science, and I spend my days helping children master the Art of Scientific explanation and the use of its method.

My second vocation is the study and practise of Western Occult Science. All 'occult' means is 'hidden'. What I study are the schools, systems and techniques that have been employed in the West since BC era, but have become 'hidden' and thus 'occult' due to the Christian occupation of this part of the world.

The western system mirrors that of the East. Like Buddhism or Taoism its a Philosophy or way of life, not a Religion or even a belief system.

Its a language, a map and a set of tools.

Have you ever been to a monestry in somewhere like Nepal? If you stare into a monk's eyes they sparkle and smile at you with this look of 'knowing'.

All the Scientific Knowledge in the world doesn't make you happy...

Is having a Physics PhD the only way you'll ever understand the nature of reality, are we all condemned to never really 'get-it'?
I think there needs to be a way for the laymen to understand Truth without having a doctorate in Math.

The point is - some people need Something. They don't need a God, or a Prophet or any form of Dogma. But they need a Model of some sort. everyman who seeks it needs a way of answering THAT question - Why am I here?

Science tells us How (up to a fraction of a second).. but it doesn't tell us Why.

THIS is the Truth I talk about.
Why are YOU here?

Science can't answer this. Religion can't answer this (truthfully). Only YOU can answer this.

Some people have no problem answering this question. Some people don't care.

But if you did care, and you wanted a model to work with, mysticism would be the one to go for. Its solatory, its experimental and you are you're own labrat. 'Success is thy proof' n all that.

If you're happy, strong and successful in everything that you do - then its working.

I don't see what is so wrong with this. Ultimately, its just a model. If it works for you - use it.