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Science can mislead just as religion can; both can lead to falsehoods and thus both can mislead.

Realist

Agnostic theist
Yes, "un pomme" is French for "an apple" and "una manzana" is Spanish for it, and a flibge is something I made up.

Just like "Natural" is my language for describing anything we experience, and "supernatural" is your language for describing some of those things.

This is not a matter of language as in the case of your apple example. We are both speaking about an English word that has different MEANiNGS, not different languages. In the French language, the word "apple" means the same as it does in English. So I don't see why you brought this up to begin with.

Besides that, how you define "natural" or "nature" is not a matter of your language, it's one of the definitions as our English-speaking society has defined it. You don't get to make up what you want words to mean if that's what you're implying (unless you come up with a new word yourself maybe). The word, "nature" entails the laws of nature, which both you and I agreed to earlier, we just disagreed on the extent that it applied to in existence. So lets say even if you could make up your definitions, but you can't make up reality or call it "your" reality. It's gonna take more than just saying it's your definition or whatever definition to prove this matter. If you want to assert anything about how reality or the Universe is, you need to prove it otherwise it's your "belief". That's how logic works. What you're giving me is borderline wishful thinking and that's what I'm beginning to tire of.


See, you'd have a point here, if you were talking about literal theism versus atheism. There you can say "Does the idea that there's some intelligent being overseeing all of the universe apply to the universe?". Here, it's not a question of whether it applies. It does, just as "un pomme" applies to that particular red (or green) fruit. You might disagree with the use of that language, but it still applies. That's why proof is irrelevant.

I'm not going to bother to answer this question. Don't count on me to address you or respond to any more of your comments. My last post before this one explains why. Good luck in your quest for truth.
 
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Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
This is not a matter of language as in the case of your apple example. We are both speaking about an English word that has different MEANiNGS, not different languages. In the French language, the word "apple" means the same as it does in English. So I don't see why you brought this up to begin with.

Because your "supernatural" means the same thing as my "natural". It's just two different languages. (Yes, they're both the English language, but one's my version and one's yours)

Besides that, how you define "natural" or "nature" is not a matter of your language, it's one of the definitions as our English-speaking society has defined it. You don't get to make up what you want words to mean if that's what you're implying (unless you come up with a new word yourself maybe). The word, "nature" entails the laws of nature, which both you and I agreed to earlier, we just disagreed on the extent that it applied to in existence. So lets say even if you could make up your definitions, but you can't make up reality or call it "your" reality. It's gonna take more than just saying it's your definition or whatever definition to prove this matter. If you want to assert anything about how reality or the Universe is, you need to prove it otherwise it's your "belief". That's how logic works. What you're giving me is borderline wishful thinking and that's what I'm beginning to tire of.

I'm really not sure how else to explain this. This is not a matter of something being red, and I'm calling it blue. It's a matter of it being purple and I'm calling it reddish-blue, while you're calling it bluish-red.

The fact is that there's no reason not to call anything in the universe "not natural". It's all part of nature. Nature is the trees, and the birds. Nature is the mountains and the valleys. Nature is the bugs and the oceans. Nature is the lava core of the earth and the firy center of the sun. Nature is the asteroid that crashes into Earth killing the dinosaurs and the moon. Nature is the planetoid Pluto and the quarks that make it up. Nature is the dust rings of Saturn and the galaxy they're a part of. Nature is the cloud of hydrogen that helps form a star and the black hole that occurs when that star dies. Nature is everything.

So, anything that happens within those confines is natural.

I'm not going to bother to answer this question. Don't count on me to address you or respond to any more of your comments. My last post before this one explains why. Good luck in your quest for truth.

I don't remember asking a question there. You're welcome to stop replying. It's a very simple concept. I'm not sure why you're having such a hard time with it. Nature is everything that is, because that's what makes up nature for us. Why consider trees to be natural, but not ghosts? Why consider an ocean natural but not a gaseous cloud in space?

You have yet to explain why you think some things should be considered outside nature, and why nature can't be used to describe some things. But I guess I'll never know.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
You have yet to explain why you think some things should be considered outside nature, and why nature can't be used to describe some things. But I guess I'll never know.
Hear hear! That is what I wanted to know too: why some things should be considered "unnatural" and others "natural". Personally, I think "unnatural", to the superstitious camp, merely refers to "that which we do not know or understand yet", and it will become "natural" once we do.

I think Realist defines "unnatural" or "supernatural" as "that which defies the laws of nature", but what s/he fails to realize is that the laws of nature are not all known to us, and the ones we think we know, are subject to change and reinterpretation.


Realist: You might have missed my comment in Post 94 about your signature. I think it's a pretty valid criticism of your signature line, ie, it is not rational to believe that "all is supernatural", since the natural must exist in order for supernatural to have meaning. Hypothetically speaking, if everything were supernatural, then that would make the "supernatural" actually the "natural" order of things, and we are back to the idea that all is natural. On the other hand, it is possible for all to be natural, thus, your assertion that it is just as unreasonable to believe that all is natural as it is to believe that all is supernatural is simply not true.

What do you think?
 
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Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Hear hear! That is what I wanted to know too: why some things should be considered "unnatural" and others "natural". Personally, I think "unnatural", the superstitious camp, merely refers to "that which we do not know or understand yet", and it will become "natural" once we do.

Exactly. That's why I chose my signature even before this whole thing started.

I think Realist defines "unnatural" or "supernatural" as "that which defies the laws of nature", but what s/he fails to realize is that the laws of nature are not all known to us, and the ones we think we know, are subject to change and reinterpretation.

Again, exactly.
 

Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
You're right. This experience doesn't prove God. It is evidence of a supernatural event. So if anything, it at least established in my judgement that a supernatural existed, and that at least gives some opened the door to a god existing, since He's also supernatural.
By the way, what I saw in this experience weren't spirit beings but these things appeared to be physical because they had skin and resembled one of my family members. There were 3 of them at most probably. These things were like a hybrid, like the Sphinx (the creature with the head of a human but the rest of it's body like a lion) in Egypt. They had some type of animal-like body except that their face were more human like, resembling that of one of my family members. I know this is bizarre and makes it harder to believe but that is what I saw.

I neither believe nor disbelieve whether you saw what you say. What I do disbelieve is the claim you make of the existence of a god based on this evidence. If anything the oddity makes it less likely that you're making it up. But I still see no evidence that what you saw was anything more than a hallucination, and even if we assume that it wasn't, using it as evidence that supernatural things can exist is weak circumstantial evidence for the existence at best for the existence of a god.

When I claim that your experience was most likely hallucinatory, please don't take offense. I have had similar experiences.

This woman was a pastor actually and she didn't tell me specifically what I was doing in detail but she referred to something that would be involved in what I was doing. She probably didn't want to go into details herself because it was in the middle of a church service with others around, but from what she told me, it convinced me that she had a clue or was giving me a clue so I'd know what she was referring to. I wouldn't have even call this insightful, rather it was embarassing.

Again, just because you did something in private doesn't mean that she couldn't have known about it. For example, a pastor could accuse a teenage boy of masturbation, and would almost certainly be right. It's not because that pastor had any special knowledge from god, it's because nearly every teenage boy masturbates.

Well it really depends on your standards in this case. I could understand if it was based on complete blind faith, but although my religious beliefs aren't scientifically validated but they aren't based on blind faith neither. My experiences and millions and perhaps billions of others serve as a sign to each one of us that there is something valid or real to our religious beliefs. Besides that, moral guidance, political actions, charitable choices are based on cultural factors and not proof. There is no "objective" or scientific basis to prove which moral standards are right, or who to vote for, or who to give to. That doesn't mean that they're false neither and maybe truth or false or proof don't have to apply in these situations. They just may be one of those things in life that are just based on preference and our judgement.

Millions of experiences would prove your beliefs, except that these millions of experiences don't all agree. People all over the world have experiences that lead them to mutually exclusive beliefs. They can't all be right. You make it sound like these people worldwide who have had religious experiences agree with you, but in fact they disagree with you just as I do. What basis do you have for thinking that your experience is more valid than theirs?
 

Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
What this pastor told me was just as, "what you're doing in your bed, stop doing it". I'd say that is still quite good even if she didn't go into any further detail and I only think she didn't do that because it would've been embarassing to me since other people were around. As I mentioned before she gave me one clue word that definitely played a part in what I was doing so in my judgement, she didn't have to tell me "specifics in detail" like what exactly I was doing in the bed although it would've been much more convincing, but given the circumstances and the people around I think that's why that didn't happen.

This isn't at all specific. Nearly every male does things in bed that might be considered wrong by a pastor.

I remember another prophecy or revelation another pastor told me, he told me over the phone that He'd pray with me so that I'd do good on a major test I was to take in school. During the prayer he stopped and told me you have a some problem in your eye and remarkably so, I had been having problems with one eye hurting a lot for some reason. I didn't think much of it at first because I thought it was not really a problem but just temporary allergies or dry eyes. He prayed for me about that as well but the problem is still there till today. I went for an eye exam weeks ago for and an eye doctor told me I may have a sinus infection which is not an eye problem but it can effect the eye. So it turned out I did have something effecting my eye which was remarkably 99.7% what a pastor told me, although it wasn't my eye causing it and instead it may be a sinus infection. I have to have a CT scan done so I can definitely confirm that though, which I haven't got done yet.

This could be based on your body language. As someone who has done karate for years, I can often tell if someone is hurt, and where it hurts, by the way they move. Eye injuries aren't common in karate, so I'm not so sure about that, but my guess is that you probably closed your eyes tightly for a moment or rubbed your eyebrows, and that tipped him off, maybe subconsciously, that there was something wrong with your eye.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
The supernatural is defined in terms of what's natural. If the laws of nature really exist despite scientists not being able to accurately understand them, then they'd still be operating in nature. Now if a "real" law of nature was violated, that is what would be supernatural.
Let me start out by saying that I thought this paragraph explaining your dichotomy between natural and supernatural was very well done. I agree with you: if a "real law of nature" exists, it can not broken. If it were broken, then, by definition, it would be supernatural.


But...
There are two problems with this:
1. The first problem is the practical ability of humans to identify the supernatural under this definition. We do not, and currently cannot, accurately identify all of the natural laws, thus, it is impossible for us to say whether one has been broken or not.

2. It creates this idea that the "laws of nature" are just floating out there, directing how everything should go. Essentially, you are defining nature as "anything that follows the laws of nature". This is a reversal of reality: It is nature that defines the "laws of nature". In other words, scientists do not study nature in search of "laws of nature"; they study nature, and then based upon the information gathered, they create "laws of nature".

So why does this distinction matter? Basically, anything a scientist can perceive, whether through his senses or instrumentation, is fair game for study, and possible initiation as a "law of nature". Thus, if ghosts can be proven to be the spirits of dead people, then this knowledge would be considered a "law of nature"-- ie, when humans die, they sometimes leave a ghost behind. This knowledge about ghosts would not be treated as supernatural knowledge, because it was simply folded into the body of "things we know about our universe". It could also not be considered “supernatural” under your definition, since it is not breaking any “laws of nature”.

I will continue with the rest in another post, so this doesn't get so overwhelming.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I think another point that needs to be made is that this is how science works. It looks at the way things are and tries to describe them. It says "Look, the planets move in circular orbits around the sun" (Obviously a very simplistic version, but it's just for proving a point). So, it's then a law of nature that the planets have circular orbits around the sun. Then something else comes along and doesn't quite fit into that law, and so science does more testing and refines that law to incorporate the new wrinkle. "Look, the planets' orbits aren't actually circles, but ellipses." So, then there's a new "law of nature" that describes things including that new thing which previously went against that particular law of nature.

This is really just a long-winded way of saying that the supernatural is the natural not yet understood.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
As for the specific example, God is a supernatural being since He's an immaterial being. So one way to distinguish between the natural and supernatural is having something that exists immaterially in reality.
How do you know that God is immaterial?
How do you know that immateriality is supernatural?
For how much you jumped down mball's throat for not defending his definition of natural, you actually have a lot more complex system going on here, with way more unfounded assumptions.

Let's examine this "all immaterial things are supernatural" claim.
How much mass, exactly, is a thought? Is love supernatural? Are virtues made up of matter? What about light? Is not light immaterial?
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Realist said:
Well in what area does science "know" some thing? I ask that because if they truly knew how something works, then that means they couldn't be wrong. If science is able to know some things, then surely they'd be able to know "some" laws of nature.
One last time: Science only offers the best possible explanation given our current level of knowledge and understanding.

If you are still unclear of what this actually means, check out this website: HERE

I cannot stress to you how important it is to actually understand the foundations of science. This isn't something that is helpful for one silly debate; this is knowledge that will help you understand the world around you. At the very least, it will allow you to criticize science for its actual faults, rather than for your misperceptions of it.
 

MysticPhD

Member
Very interesting thread . . . so much to read. But the materiality/immateriality issue is a non-issue, IMO. NOTHING is material . . . everything is some complex standing wave form of vibratory energy event in quantum time (like traffic jams). Like all standing waves their "permanence" is illusory. "Particles" are vibratory energy events, as the Rayleigh principle unambiguously states,

. . . an individual 'particle' is a whole train of waves of different frequencies which together form a wave packet. The velocity of these packets is a function of the waves comprising it.

All energy is vibratory and Bachelard suggests the crucial connection with time that our "measurements" mandate,

. . . From criticism delivered by wave mechanics, it follows that the particle has no more reality than the composition that manifests it. There are temporal events at the very foundation of its existence.

and it is Eddington who points out the fundamental conundrum of objective indeterminacy,

. . . to recognize h (Planck's constant) is to deny subjective indeterminacy and accept objective indeterminacy. . . The suggestion is that an association of exact position with exact momentum can never be discovered by us because there is no such thing in Nature.

A material particle thus loses its character of a substantial entity existing in space and enduring through time. It is revealed as simply that which we identify when we perform a particular process event in time called "measurement," or observation. In Jeans's words

. . . Events must be treated as the fundamental objective constituents, and we must no longer think of the universe as consisting of solid pieces of matter which persist in time, and move about in space. . . . Events and not particles constitute the true objective reality. [Emphasis added]

and, a few lines later, Jeans quotes Bertrand Russell,

. . . The events that happen in our minds are part of the course of nature, and we do not know that the events which happen elsewhere are of a totally different kind. [Emphasis added]

Save the brickbats if you don't get it, please.
 
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Realist

Agnostic theist
How do you know that God is immaterial?
How do you know that immateriality is supernatural?
For how much you jumped down mball's throat for not defending his definition of natural, you actually have a lot more complex system going on here, with way more unfounded assumptions.

I know that God is immaterial by definition. That is not to say that that definition relates to something existing which is one area I challenged Mball on. Definitions only establish what things means, not that they actually exists unless there's proof. There are also two different contradictory definitions for the word "nature"; an absolute one and a non-absolute one. That is not an issue with the supernatural. No one is claiming that the supernatural is absolute nor is it defined as such.

Let's examine this "all immaterial things are supernatural" claim.
How much mass, exactly, is a thought? Is love supernatural? Are virtues made up of matter? What about light? Is not light immaterial?

Well perhaps consciousness may be supernatural. Some people report being able to leave their bodies, like in OBEs and NDEs. I wouldn't call light immaterial because it is made up of particles which is all part of matter. Some say love is supernatural. Virtues I'm not sure about. Even if some of these can't be classified easily, I could simply just limit my immaterial criteria to immaterial "beings".
 
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Realist

Agnostic theist
Let me start out by saying that I thought this paragraph explaining your dichotomy between natural and supernatural was very well done. I agree with you: if a "real law of nature" exists, it can not broken. If it were broken, then, by definition, it would be supernatural.


But...
There are two problems with this:
1. The first problem is the practical ability of humans to identify the supernatural under this definition. We do not, and currently cannot, accurately identify all of the natural laws, thus, it is impossible for us to say whether one has been broken or not.

One doesn't have to be broken in order for you to know what the word supernatural mean. You don't even need to accurately know what a law of nature is (as in actually pointing to one) in order for you to know what a law of nature means. Presumably "real" or "true" laws of nature exists out there, even if we don't know about them, and all the supernatural would mean is one of them being broken. That's all it means, that's not to say that this actually happens. It's only to label would that would be call if it did.

Edit: After rereading this I realized I misunderstood what you said to a degree. You mentioned practical ability to identify what's supernatural. What I explained was more theoretical. You're actually correct here, until we can accurately and completely understand a law of nature that is.

2. It creates this idea that the "laws of nature" are just floating out there, directing how everything should go. Essentially, you are defining nature as "anything that follows the laws of nature". This is a reversal of reality: It is nature that defines the "laws of nature". In other words, scientists do not study nature in search of "laws of nature"; they study nature, and then based upon the information gathered, they create "laws of nature".

A law of nature is simply how nature functions. Scientists don't create how nature functions, rather they understand it or identify it. Nature is a force, and the only way to identify it's scope is to see where is it operating. Now scientists may never be able to determine the scope or boundaries of nature or even if there are boundaries of it to begin with, but that is not to say that it doesn't have boundaries or limits. In which case, that leaves room for the supernatural.



So why does this distinction matter? Basically, anything a scientist can perceive, whether through his senses or instrumentation, is fair game for study, and possible initiation as a "law of nature". Thus, if ghosts can be proven to be the spirits of dead people, then this knowledge would be considered a "law of nature"-- ie, when humans die, they sometimes leave a ghost behind. This knowledge about ghosts would not be treated as supernatural knowledge, because it was simply folded into the body of "things we know about our universe". It could also not be considered “supernatural” under your definition, since it is not breaking any “laws of nature”.

I referenced a definition of the word "nature" earlier. Ghosts are immaterial beings, so under the definition of "nature" they're not natural. And since ghosts are by definition, immaterial, if science explained them, then they'd have to explain them as being immaterial, in which case they're explaining something as being supernatural. I don't buy that just because it can be explained, it therefore is natural. Whoever said that the supernatural meant completely unexplainable or understandable? Maybe this is an issue of "how" it's explained, but as I mentioned, if science were to explain ghosts, it would have to be one involving immateriality.
 
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Realist

Agnostic theist
One last time: Science only offers the best possible explanation given our current level of knowledge and understanding.

I was trying to raise a philosophical point as to what knowledge is. Some of your points seem to have the implication that science wasn't sure about not one law of nature when you kept grouping my examples of various supernatural events (which contradict current scientific understanding) as being unknown laws of nature. I understand your statement, the problem is, therefore can science be said to really have knowledge?

Is my question any different from this:

When a theory is said to be ``true'' it means that it agrees with all known experimental evidence. But even the best of theories have, time and again, been shown to be incomplete: though they might explain a lot of phenomena using a few basic principles, and even predict many new and exciting results, eventually new experiments (or more precise ones) show a discrepancy between the workings of nature and the predictions of the theory. In the strict sense this means that the theory was not ``true'' after all; but the fact remains that it is a very good approximation to the truth, at lest where a certain type of phenomena is concerned.

- That's from the very website you gave me.
The direct link: http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node9.html#SECTION02124000000000000000
 
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Realist

Agnostic theist
Very interesting thread . . . so much to read. But the materiality/immateriality issue is a non-issue, IMO. NOTHING is material . . . everything is some complex standing wave form of vibratory energy event in quantum time (like traffic jams). Like all standing waves their "permanence" is illusory. "Particles" are vibratory energy events, as the Rayleigh principle unambiguously states,

. . . an individual 'particle' is a whole train of waves of different frequencies which together form a wave packet. The velocity of these packets is a function of the waves comprising it.

All energy is vibratory and Bachelard suggests the crucial connection with time that our "measurements" mandate,

. . . From criticism delivered by wave mechanics, it follows that the particle has no more reality than the composition that manifests it. There are temporal events at the very foundation of its existence.

and it is Eddington who points out the fundamental conundrum of objective indeterminacy,

. . . to recognize h (Planck's constant) is to deny subjective indeterminacy and accept objective indeterminacy. . . The suggestion is that an association of exact position with exact momentum can never be discovered by us because there is no such thing in Nature.

A material particle thus loses its character of a substantial entity existing in space and enduring through time. It is revealed as simply that which we identify when we perform a particular process event in time called "measurement," or observation. In Jeans's words

. . . Events must be treated as the fundamental objective constituents, and we must no longer think of the universe as consisting of solid pieces of matter which persist in time, and move about in space. . . . Events and not particles constitute the true objective reality. [Emphasis added]

and, a few lines later, Jeans quotes Bertrand Russell,

. . . The events that happen in our minds are part of the course of nature, and we do not know that the events which happen elsewhere are of a totally different kind. [Emphasis added]

Save the brickbats if you don't get it, please.

Fascinating thought. I really need to get more into Quantum Physics after I'm done with what I'm currently in school for. Thanks for the insight though.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Very interesting thread . . . so much to read. But the materiality/immateriality issue is a non-issue, IMO. NOTHING is material . . . everything is some complex standing wave form of vibratory energy event in quantum time (like traffic jams). Like all standing waves their "permanence" is illusory. "Particles" are vibratory energy events, as the Rayleigh principle unambiguously states,

. . . an individual 'particle' is a whole train of waves of different frequencies which together form a wave packet. The velocity of these packets is a function of the waves comprising it.


Very interesting. I have heard this "all is energy" theory, or "all is vibration" theory only from animists or mystics. It is neat to see that there may actually be a scientific backing for such. It does seem to explain a lot, even if it is not very intuitive (and my mind certainly rebels against the idea).

The part you quoted above reads like the definition of light. Is that what this theory is expounding-- that matter exists basically in the same way we view light existing?

All energy is vibratory and Bachelard suggests the crucial connection with time that our "measurements" mandate,

. . . From criticism delivered by wave mechanics, it follows that the particle has no more reality than the composition that manifests it. There are temporal events at the very foundation of its existence.

Again, interesting. I had sort of delegated "time" to a made-up human device. Here, it seems to suggest that time is a critical component to existence.

I don't quite follow what this means: "the particle has no more reality than the composition that manifests it." Is this saying that the composition of a particle has no reality? In the previous quote, it stated that the compoosition of particles was the frequencies that made up the wave. The frequencies, at least then, must have reality.


. . . Events must be treated as the fundamental objective constituents, and we must no longer think of the universe as consisting of solid pieces of matter which persist in time, and move about in space. . . . Events and not particles constitute the true objective reality. [Emphasis added]

Isn't this just another way of saying that consiousness creates the universe? ie, the universe could not exist without a sentient being experiencing it. This would require a bit more to convince me. It doesn't seem to explain how the consciousness comes to exist in the first place.

Do you know of a very beginner-friendly website about this that I could check out? I'm interested in learning more.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
A law of nature is simply how nature functions. Scientists don't create how nature functions, rather they understand it or identify it.

That's what he said. Science creates the "laws" that describe nature. That means that they create sentences with words that explain something.

Nature is a force, and the only way to identify it's scope is to see where is it operating. Now scientists may never be able to determine the scope or boundaries of nature or even if there are boundaries of it to begin with, but that is not to say that it doesn't have boundaries or limits. In which case, that leaves room for the supernatural.

The point is that it doesn't have boundaries. Nature is everything we can sense.

I referenced a definition of the word "nature" earlier. Ghosts are immaterial beings, so under the definition of "nature" they're not natural. And since ghosts are by definition, immaterial, if science explained them, then they'd have to explain them as being immaterial, in which case they're explaining something as being supernatural.

Why does "immaterial" mean "supernatural"? Light is technically immaterial, but I'm sure you'd agree it's perfectly natural. It has no matter, and yet we can still sense it and still affect it and be affected by it. Ghosts would have to be either some kind of energy or matter for us to see or sense them. They might not contain matter, but that still wouldn't make them supernatural.

I don't buy that just because it can be explained, it therefore is natural. Whoever said that the supernatural meant completely unexplainable or understandable? Maybe this is an issue of "how" it's explained, but as I mentioned, if science were to explain ghosts, it would have to be one involving immateriality.

No one said that because it can't be explained it must be natural. We've said that despite not being able to explain something it is still natural. How else do you define "supernatural" other than something that can't be explained naturally?

And again, "immateriality" doesn't necessarily mean "supernatural".
 

MysticPhD

Member
[/i]Very interesting. I have heard this "all is energy" theory, or "all is vibration" theory only from animists or mystics. It is neat to see that there may actually be a scientific backing for such. It does seem to explain a lot, even if it is not very intuitive (and my mind certainly rebels against the idea).
You are not alone . . . physicists (as you might expect given the name) are equally trapped in a physical worldview . . .hence the constant search for "particles" and the ultimate "particle" the Higgs Boson ("God particle"). What they are finding is "particle events" in quantum time. It is quite amusing to Mystics . . . because they keep throwing things at each other at higher and higher energies creating these "events" and naming the various "results" different "particles" with (not suprisingly) a variety of "spins", "up/down" orientations, "flavors" etc. etc. . . . AS IF they actually found some new material "substance" instead of an "energy event" in quantum time.
The part you quoted above reads like the definition of light. Is that what this theory is expounding-- that matter exists basically in the same way we view light existing?
To the extent that it is an energy composite (complex standing waveform) of vibrational components . . . close enough.
Again, interesting. I had sort of delegated "time" to a made-up human device. Here, it seems to suggest that time is a critical component to existence.
It is the fourth dimension that creates (what I call) our timespace (usually called spacetime by materialistic physicists) . . . because it is time that creates the space we experience and measure . . . not vice versa.
I don't quite follow what this means: "the particle has no more reality than the composition that manifests it." Is this saying that the composition of a particle has no reality? In the previous quote, it stated that the compoosition of particles was the frequencies that made up the wave. The frequencies, at least then, must have reality.
In a sense, yes . . . as the vibrations occur in a "perfect fluid" which is the alternative to the Higgs Boson ("particle") the physicists are looking for. The first clues of its existence has been a shock to the (open-minded) physics community (the Large Hadron Collider cadre still hope to find the Higgs.) . . . but it was expected by Mystics. The clues come from work at the RHIC Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider . . . HERE is a report of the finding.
Isn't this just another way of saying that consiousness creates the universe? ie, the universe could not exist without a sentient being experiencing it. This would require a bit more to convince me. It doesn't seem to explain how the consciousness comes to exist in the first place.
Yes/No . . . it is far more complex than that. (We don't know how anything came to exist in the first place.)
Do you know of a very beginner-friendly website about this that I could check out? I'm interested in learning more.
Not really . . . the stuff I read is jargon-filled and mathematically rigorous. I would attempt to provide an analogized or simplified explanation . . . but my track record here on this forum suggests it is unlikely to be very effective (or well-received). Let me think about it.
 
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MysticPhD

Member
Quote from Falvlun: Do you know of a very beginner-friendly website about this that I could check out? I'm interested in learning more.
Not really . . . the stuff I read is jargon-filled and mathematically rigorous. I would attempt to provide an analogized or simplified explanation . . . but my track record here on this forum suggests it is unlikely to be very effective (or well-received). Let me think about it.
I shall endeavor to provide an introductory level explanation of what is a very complex area of science (and philosophy) . . . so nit-pickers hold your tongues. If I have gone too basic . . do not take offense. I am not trying to insult anyone's intelligence. I have no idea what level to start from.

The most revolutionary aspect of quantum mechanics has been variously ignored or vigorously denied depending on the author's particular preference ---- the fact that the existence of "particles" is no longer supportable. DeBroglie attributed a vibratory nature to matter and Planck assigned a corpuscular character to radiation. If both Einstein's and Planck's equations are valid, and they have been found so in virtually every physical arena, then E=h*frequency and E=M*C-Squared mean that M*C-Squared =h*frequency.

Unfortunately, our current mathematics fails to accurately represent the hypothesized wave interference derivations of "particle" creation because an expanding "beat" seems unavoidable in Schroedinger's wave function. This anomaly in the mathematical representation is used to justify retaining a "particle" orientation. It is my belief that we will need a breakthrough in mathematics as profound as the calculus was to resolve these two different ways of representing reality mathematically.When we try to combine elements of different mathematically "measurable" ways of expressing an identity, we find that we can only get one result or the other (indeterminism) when we measure them, not both simultaneously. Because position is not something entirely different from momentum, except for the "time component," our inability to measure both does NOT mean that an objective reality is therefore non-existent and is only a subjective, observer-dependent ("measured") reality! Identity errors are not easy to detect when we are manipulating complex quantum wave functions, performing matrix mechanistic resolutions, or manipulating multidimensional (parallel) mathematical universes.

Wave functions have two parts, a real part and an imaginary part. Imaginary numbers, i (or the square root of -1) are consistent with our mathematical view of reality, but not with the true structure of reality. The concept of negativity is a useful fabrication in our models, but troublesome as a description of our existence, since there is no rewind button for life. Fortunately for us, reality is unidirectional. It is always becoming, never unbecoming!

The resolution of a wave function that occurs upon measurement, (collapsing the wave function from a wave of all possibilities to a single fact) requires multiplication by its complex conjugate (essentially this removes the unrealistic imaginary part, i). In and of itself, multiplying two separate entities together to obtain a single result is not unusual. But because our abstract understanding of the actual phenomenon being modeled (and any "identities" therein) is flawed and incomplete, the philosophical implications of the results can be misleading.

Essentially, quantum theory has eliminated the idea that electrons revolving around the nucleus were in specified orbits that were not subject to the rules of general electromagnetic theory. It also asserts that "particles" (quanta) of matter are endowed, like light, with wavelike properties. (The theory is considerably more complex than this . . . but this should be a start.

Actually, the only thing that exists in our universe is energy. It is merely stratified into differing "states." The separation of these states is determined by the relation of their composite vibratory "speeds" to each other. Matter, or mass, can be thought of as energy "decelerated" from the square of the speed of light, eg., M= E/C-Squared or h*frequency/C-Squared. Conversely, energy is matter "accelerated" to the square of the speed of light. This is Einstein's famous equation in words. To understand the philosophical significance of energy, we must change our basic notion of speed (and acceleration/deceleration) as a characteristic of getting somewhere.

Speed illustrates relativity and will be useful in simplifying the concept if you do not take it too literally and use your imagination. You can visualize the relativistic nature of matter and energy by imagining the passing of a tremendously fast automobile close to you on the highway. If you are stationary, the car as it passes will be an invisible blur, in essence, pure motive energy. Now picture yourself on the same highway in another car travelling at an identical speed. The other car will now be a solid object to your eyes, not a blur of energy.

All matter is in continuous vibratory molecular motion (like a traffic jam). The overall speed of this molecular motion (density of the jam) determines the state we view it in. All our visible matter is that which is traveling at relatively the same range of molecular speed that our bodies are. This is the normal range of molecular activity as it contains those energy states that we can sense as solids or composite entities. This is a limitation of our bodily senses. Our senses are limited by the speed of the molecular activity that comprises their very existence.

We are not equipped to sense as a composite any substance that exists at the square of the speed of light. When the speed of molecular activity reaches the square of the speed of light, it becomes pure energy to us because it exceeds the normal range. Essentially, those things with molecular activity at similar speeds to ours are the living forms of substance, both animate and inanimate. Animate life forms are the ones whose molecular speed is identical to ours. Inanimate life forms are slower, but still living. The things whose molecular speeds are so slow relative to ours that they appear immobile are the lifeless (inorganic) forms. (No nitpicking allowed)

The forms of substance with molecular speeds faster than ours appear less and less solid, from the fluid and gaseous states to the speed range designated as energy. As long as the molecular speed of our body and senses remains fixed, we can never see the fastest substance as anything but a blur of energy. In other words . . . solid matter and energy are NOT different phenomena. They are IDENTICAL, which is a primary source of confusion in our mathematical depictions. The only difference is their relative range of speed on either side of our molecular speed. The harder a substance is to our senses, the slower is its molecular speed in relation to ours. The less solid a substance is to our senses, the faster its molecular speed is to ours. Energy is the term we use to describe substance in the speed range that we can no longer sense as a whole in this timespace. This does not mean it is any less "substantial."

There may be difficulty reconciling this view of energy because we usually as a power source that should be used to accomplish something. In fact, ever since we acquired the ability to create fire, the results associated with this phenomenon have been considered destructive and wasteful, unless the energy was used in some way. The normal opinion is that any substance that is burned is destroyed, when in actuality the process of burning is merely the chemical acceleration of energy from its current "slow" form to several alternate "faster" forms of energy, especially light and heat (infra-red radiation).

The easiest result of this "acceleration" to comprehend is the ash that remains after a solid has been burned. It is quite obviously less dense (less of a traffic jam) than the original substance, indicating faster molecular "speed." Therefore, it should be a simple matter to accept the fact that the original substance was merely speeded up to less dense form. So too, it is not difficult to accept that the various gases and vapors are even faster (even less dense) forms of the original substance.

Light and heat, on the other hand, cause many to struggle unsuccessfully with the abstraction that they are simply faster forms of the original substance, because they do not consider them substance at all. Similarly, while we experience consciousness as a "substantive state," (our Self) we do not consider it "substance" either. However, our consciousness is both substantive and "substance," since it provides the field within which our perceptions (observations and measurements) of our experienced reality exist. Without it, we would not experience anything.

Existential permanence is in the reiteration of events through time, not the existence of particles through time. Unfortunately, the persistence of "particle" imagery has masked the essential significance of quantum mechanics to our understanding of reality.
 
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Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
Very interesting thread . . . so much to read. But the materiality/immateriality issue is a non-issue, IMO. NOTHING is material . . . everything is some complex standing wave form of vibratory energy event in quantum time (like traffic jams). Like all standing waves their "permanence" is illusory. "Particles" are vibratory energy events, as the Rayleigh principle unambiguously states,

. . . an individual 'particle' is a whole train of waves of different frequencies which together form a wave packet. The velocity of these packets is a function of the waves comprising it.

All energy is vibratory and Bachelard suggests the crucial connection with time that our "measurements" mandate,

. . . From criticism delivered by wave mechanics, it follows that the particle has no more reality than the composition that manifests it. There are temporal events at the very foundation of its existence.

and it is Eddington who points out the fundamental conundrum of objective indeterminacy,

. . . to recognize h (Planck's constant) is to deny subjective indeterminacy and accept objective indeterminacy. . . The suggestion is that an association of exact position with exact momentum can never be discovered by us because there is no such thing in Nature.

A material particle thus loses its character of a substantial entity existing in space and enduring through time. It is revealed as simply that which we identify when we perform a particular process event in time called "measurement," or observation. In Jeans's words

. . . Events must be treated as the fundamental objective constituents, and we must no longer think of the universe as consisting of solid pieces of matter which persist in time, and move about in space. . . . Events and not particles constitute the true objective reality. [Emphasis added]

Your use of these quotes to say that nothing is material fundamentally misunderstands their meaning. The quotes are a call to redefine the meaning of material. Wave-particle duality means that everything is BOTH wave and particle. Previously waves had been perceived as immaterial, but with their unification with particles the definition of material had to change, not that material did not exist.
 
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