Science confirms validity of intercessory prayer

[dybmh]

Troll this... Troll that... "Rubbing is Racing", my friends

This clip is a welcome back to the Most Honerable @Revoltingest. A Man who knows his way around an engine...

 

[charlie sc]

So in your mind theists are predisposed to crime because you say a study that was obviously flawed to everyone else but you says theists are predisposed to crime and you have somehow proven it so even though no one agreed that you had indeed proven anything. Is this what you are thinking?

Wrong thread, but errr no. There were a few limitations in the study. I stated some of them in the thread. Look, I didn't perform these studies and they have been reproduced numerous times. If you don't like science, fine. Don't ask me not to not like science.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Scientists are well aware a study could theoretically find a completely improbable result purely by chance. That's why they calculate a p value for their results. It's also why we look at meta-analyses, which is what @sayak83 posted. Finding studies that have produced contradictory results and then throwing up your hands and saying, "UGH THIS SCIENCE STUFF IS BS!" is childish.

The very idea of scientist thinking that prayer is under the purview of science is what is childish, it is complete utter rubbish to believe that somehow we can prove or disprove prayer by putting it under a microscope. It is bull**** to believe you can. Prayer is not a subject for science to investigate

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Troll this... Troll that... "Rubbing is Racing", my friends

This clip is a welcome back to the Most Honerable @Revoltingest. A Man who knows his way around an engine...

He didn't even get us a t-shirt from his trip

 

[Left Coast]

The very idea of scientist thinking that prayer is under the purview of science is what is childish, it is complete utter rubbish to believe that somehow we can prove or disprove prayer by putting it under a microscope. It is bull**** to believe you can. Prayer is not a subject for science to investigate

It is up for science to investigate to the degree that people claim it has observable, measurable effects on the world.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

It is up for science to investigate to the degree that people claim it has observable, measurable effects on the world.

And the contradictory results of the sum totals of these studies has proven that it is a waste of time. It is outside the magestria of science. There is no related field in science to study a metaphysical concept and practice such as prayer. Science is about studying the physical universe not the spiritual one.

 

[Revoltingest]

The very idea of scientist thinking that prayer is under the purview of science is what is childish, it is complete utter rubbish to believe that somehow we can prove or disprove prayer by putting it under a microscope. It is bull**** to believe you can. Prayer is not a subject for science to investigate

I disagree.
One can use the scientific method to investigate the effects of prayer,
eg, recovery from illness. I'd expect it to have benefit (like a placebo).
Good questions would be how effective & under what conditions.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

I disagree.
One can use the scientific method to investigate the effects of prayer,
eg, recovery from illness. I'd expect it to have benefit (like a placebo).
Good questions would be how effective & under what conditions.

So far the results are inconclusive and I personally think it is going to remain that way

 

[charlie sc]

REPLICATION STUDY by Dr. William S. Harris and colleagues was published in the “Archives of Internal medicine.” --- the group that received prayer had better outcomes than the control group.

To any and all who read this. I checked the Archives of Internal medicine and William's link from his website to his publications. Here is the first Search Results and the second harris ws - PubMed - NCBI.

This is probably the study from the OP A Randomized, Controlled Trial of the Effects of Remote, Intercessory Prayer on Outcomes in Patients Admitted to the Coronary Care Unit

 

[Revoltingest]

So far the results are inconclusive and I personally think it is going to remain that way

Have any results to link?
What is your opinion on the efficacy of a placebo?

 

[Left Coast]

And the contradictory results of the sum totals of these studies has proven that it is a waste of time. It is outside the magestria of science.

That doesn't follow logically at all. Finding contradictory results could simply mean that the independent variable (prayer) really has little or no net effect (which, again, is why we perform meta-analyses). Or it could mean there are moderating or mediating variables that dictate when and how the prayer is effective.

There is no related field in science to study a metaphysical concept and practice such as prayer. Science is about studying the physical universe not the spiritual one.

I'm sorry if this doesn't sit well with you, but prayer is a physical act, right here in the physical world (at least the forms of it being studied scientifically). And the effects it can allegedly have are also part of the physical world (such as recovery from a disease, or regrowth of a lost limb - hey how come no Christians ever tout that study?).

 

[dybmh]

He didn't even get us a t-shirt from his trip

A logical conclusion is... He wants us to go shirtless.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Have any results to link?
What is your opinion on the efficacy of a placebo?

I think the results depends on the person they are applied too, they won't work on everyone. Same with hypnosis and prayer, doesn't work for everyone but it works for some.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think the results depends on the person they are applied too, they won't work on everyone. Same with hypnosis and prayer, doesn't work for everyone but it works for some.

And science can address that.
What's shown to work is worth applying when it can.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The very idea of scientist thinking that prayer is under the purview of science is what is childish, it is complete utter rubbish to believe that somehow we can prove or disprove prayer by putting it under a microscope. It is bull**** to believe you can. Prayer is not a subject for science to investigate

Why do you think that it is not? Do you not understand what the claims are? If one makes claims about the real world, for example "people get better when others pray for them" that is testable.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I even ran across (Hidden Brain podcast) an experiment showing that placebo
treatments can be effective even when the patient knows it's a placebo.
The human mind is a fascinating thingie, eh.) So prayer can indeed be
useful...although "valid" could cause inferring too much more.

I heard that broadcast too. I was in my car so I missed the end, but what I heard was very interesting.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

I'm sorry if this doesn't sit well with you, but prayer is a physical act, right here in the physical world (at least the forms of it being studied scientifically). And the effects it can allegedly have are also part of the physical world (such as recovery from a disease, or regrowth of a lost limb - hey how come no Christians ever tout that study?

That is not what intercessory prayer aka intercession is. When you perform this form of ritual you are doing so on behalf of another, you are calling on the deity to be present and not always by asking for a miracle but praying the deity comforts and is present with sick or dying for example. This form of prayer is ancient and is traditionally about spiritual results not physical results. It is always about the divine presence, used to pray for prisoners, those going off to war, those travelling and etc, etc. When a Christian offers intercession basically they are saying may God be with this person I am praying for.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Why do you think that it is not? Do you not understand what the claims are? If one makes claims about the real world, for example "people get better when others pray for them" that is testable.

And how are you supposed to test it. So far the results are inconclusive.

CONCLUSIONS:
There is no scientifically discernable effect for IP as assessed in controlled studies. Given that the IP literature lacks a theoretical or theological base and has failed to produce significant findings in controlled trials, we recommend that further resources not be allocated to this line of research.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That is not what intercessory prayer aka intercession is. When you perform this form of ritual you are doing so on behalf of another, you are calling on the deity to be present and not always by asking for a miracle but praying the deity comforts and is present with sick or dying for example. This form of prayer is ancient and is traditionally about spiritual results not physical results. It is always about the divine presence, used to pray for prisoners, those going off to war, those travelling and etc, etc. When a Christian offers intercession basically they are saying may God be with this person I am praying for.

Nice moving of the goalposts. There are Christians that will disagree with you and claim that intercessory prayer has a positive effect in this world. In fact that was the OP's claim. The sort of prayer that you are talking about may only make the person saying the prayers feel better.

 

[Left Coast]

That is not what intercessory prayer aka intercession is. When you perform this form of ritual you are doing so on behalf of another, you are calling on the deity to be present and not always by asking for a miracle but praying the deity comforts and is present with sick or dying for example. This form of prayer is ancient and is traditionally about spiritual results not physical results. It is always about the divine presence, used to pray for prisoners, those going off to war, those travelling and etc, etc. When a Christian offers intercession basically they are saying may God be with this person I am praying for.

Yes, I'm aware of that. However, many Christians (though not just them) also believe that intercessory prayer has very much observable real world effects (in particular, healing of sickness).