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SCIENCE: Death Anxiety Likely Cause of Belief in Intelligent Design

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
ID is pretty much a Christian disease so I assumed Christian, but it is interesting to see that they went beyond that.

Isn't Intelligent Design also based in Judaism, Islam, Bahai and any or all Abrahamic religions? And so the JWs are included as well?

The link(s) that I read mentioned ID of course, but not quite so strongly as this OP ......... it seemed more to do with a afterlife?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Isn't Intelligent Design also based in Judaism, Islam, Bahai and any or all Abrahamic religions? And so the JWs are included as well?

The link(s) that I read mentioned ID of course, but not quite so strongly as this OP ......... it seemed more to do with a afterlife?

I suppose it may be based on how one defines "ID". "ID" when it first came out was merely repackaged creationism in an effort to get around a court decision. Today ID can mean anything from straight out creationism to theological evolution. Did the paper even define what they meant by ID?

ETA: Rats, the PLOS1 link will not load.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
... "ID" when it first came out was merely repackaged creationism in an effort to get around a court decision. Today ID can mean anything from straight out creationism to theological evolution. Did the paper even define what they meant by ID?

....
Theological Evolution is primarily a result of "GodDidIt 10,000 years ago with Adam & Eve" being too silly for some people. All it does is push back the time and change the methodology. But it is still GodDidIt.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
We're done here, Thermos. You demand an act of observation our present technology and mental development cannot provide, but you do insinuate that we lack metaphysical evidence, evidence that you by shifting definitions refuse to consider.

Is this another way of saying that you don't have any evidence?

An ad hominem fallacy would be attacking you, not Hitchens, who did an ample job himself of proving he was a bigot of no accord.

False. When you attack the person who I am quoting as a way of trying to dismiss an argument you are committing an ad hominem fallacy.




You could just have pressed my link, O lazy one ;) Sir Roger Penrose is one of the finest physical minds of all time, developing (and getting awarded for) the Penrose-Hawking singularity theorems, along with Stephen Hawking whom I will just assume you've heard of. Stuart Hameroff is professor in the Department of Anesthesiology and Psychology and director for the Center for Consciousness Studies, both until 1999, and professor Emeritus for Anesthesiology and Psychology since 2003.

This isn't a recommended reading forum. This is a discussion forum. If you can't understand the material well enough to discuss it, then it isn't worth my time reading it.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
People don't rush to religion through fear of death ...
Correct. People primarily become religious because they are indoctrinated into their parent's religion from very early childhood.

However, you do see a lot of old (read: Closer to Death) people sitting in church pews.


... rather that (on average) religious people happen to fear death less than those who do not follow religions.
Do you have any evidence to back up that comment?
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Well, I do think otherwise, and like you, I dare say that I understand it better than you--so here we are.
Yes, I suppose "here we are." You have just claimed to understand better than I why it may be right to obey an order -- presumably from a God which you cannot actually show to have been given -- to kill little boys and rape their little sisters. But since you provide nothing other than your tacit agreement and purported "better understanding," I feel quite justified in supposing it to be nonsense. And here we are...
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
Yes, I suppose "here we are." You have just claimed to understand better than I why it may be right to obey an order -- presumably from a God which you cannot actually show to have been given -- to kill little boys and rape their little sisters. But since you provide nothing other than your tacit agreement and purported "better understanding," I feel quite justified in supposing it to be nonsense. And here we are...

Well, you claimed to understand it better than me first...
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Correct. People primarily become religious because they are indoctrinated into their parent's religion from very early childhood.
If that's what you think...... I think that people come to religions through so many different doorways, and I wouldn't want to pick a 'primary' reason.... there are just so many..

However, you do see a lot of old (read: Closer to Death) people sitting in church pews.

Ha! I'm old, and you could, on occasion, see me sitting in a church pew, but I'm probably twenty miles from home, bicycle outside and resting! :D And I like photographing old churches.

By the way..,........ exactly when do you find yourself in churches, seeing old sods like me sitting in the pews?

Do you have any evidence to back up that comment?
Yes.......... I read the OP's link...... so you obviously didn't! :p
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No........... They just chuck that abbreviation down and leave it laying there.
:)

I did try to follow the link to the original PLOS1 article. It appears to be a bad link in the article the OP linked. One cannot go to the horses mouth and see what was actually said.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I did try to follow the link to the original PLOS1 article. It appears to be a bad link in the article the OP linked. One cannot go to the horses mouth and see what was actually said.
Exactly. I (briefly) rummaged about in search of more info about the journalist, who is in fact the journal's left wing editor, but I couldn't find out about that person's 'religiosity'.... I do like that word, all new to me.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
After reading a fair piece of the original PLOS One article it appears that it is more about the treatment of those that are frightened by the implications of the theory of evolution and their cure. It barely defines what version of ID they are using at all, but it appears to be the theistic evolution version of Michael Behe's since they specifically call it "Behe-IDT" (Behe's ID theory). In case you are not familiar with the work of Behe he does accept common descent. He does not think that evolution would be possible without God's help.
 

DanishCrow

Seeking Feeds
When one abuses the supposed sources for his "new scientific theory" at least according to his critics, then yes:

'The Penrose–Lucas argument about the implications of Gödel's incompleteness theorem for computational theories of human intelligence has been widely criticised by mathematicians, computer scientists and philosophers, and the consensus among experts in these fields seems to be that the argument fails, though different authors may choose different aspects of the argument to attack.[18] Marvin Minsky, a leading proponent of artificial intelligence, was particularly critical, stating that Penrose "tries to show, in chapter after chapter, that human thought cannot be based on any known scientific principle." Minsky's position is exactly the opposite – he believed that humans are, in fact, machines, whose functioning, although complex, is fully explainable by current physics. Minsky maintained that "one can carry that quest [for scientific explanation] too far by only seeking new basic principles instead of attacking the real detail. This is what I see in Penrose's quest for a new basic principle of physics that will account for consciousness." '

That assumes the critics are right, but sure, we are dealing with theoretical physics that are not proven through at present - but considering that Penrose has before made concrete progress on the theoretical field of relativity, his track record is good enough for people to take note, and I think they should.

The problem with Minsky and other AI fantasts saying that the mind is a machine which can be explained with current physics, is that it is impossible to explain the human mind with current physics!


Is this another way of saying that you don't have any evidence?

The evidence exists, it just cannot be verified indepedently in certain humans because they care more about their ego being right than experiencing something bigger than themselves. As I told you in my very first post, it could be correct, neither you nor me can prove anything about it at present.

This isn't a recommended reading forum. This is a discussion forum. If you can't understand the material well enough to discuss it, then it isn't worth my time reading it.

No, this particular thread is people with baby's first atheism-level hot takes ****ting on questions older than man (trust me, I've heard them before), thinking pointing at fallacies is a sound way of debating. You have committed several, but I did not point them out, as all people commit logical fallacies on the reg. Thinking that criticizing fallacies is an argument is itself a fallacy, known informally as the fallacy fallacy: Argument from fallacy - Wikipedia.

Have a nice day, I have more important things to do with my time than arguing with whelps.
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
In that case, you can't have evidence, because the omniscient and massive computing power required to test these claims at presents is not available. But, by the same metric you give me here, you cannot muster a scientific framework to prove there was not a conscious principle behind creation either.

Edit:

On the science of neuroquantilogy, the most coherent theory at present is orchestrated objective reduction: Consciousness in the universe: A review of the ‘Orch OR’ theory - ScienceDirect

The read is a bit dry, but as a college student with grasp of theoretical physics and material science I can assure it's legit. Also, it has been put forward by the worlds leading minds in quantum physics and aneshesiology, and so we're not dealing with a bunch of religious dreamers by any stretch of the word.


That said, most physicists think Penrose has fallen off his rocker on this point and most biologists consider the proposal that microtubules underlie consciousness as, well, unlikely.

It *is* an interesting debate, but it is also clear that most biologists don't understand just how small Planck's constant is. There are certainly *some* cases where quantum effects are significant: for example photosynthesis, but those are very localized and use distributed orbitals to maintain coherence for a bit longer and over a larger distance than expected. For consciousness, the degree of coherence, and the distribution coherence is simply not going to happen in a biological system at 310K. The decoherence time is just too short.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
"religious people happen to fear death less than those who do not follow religions"

Do you have any evidence to back up that comment?



I do I do!!

When religious people in a foxholes see the tanks coming, they say,
"Hurrah! I am about to receive eternal life!!".
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
The evidence exists, it just cannot be verified indepedently in certain humans because they care more about their ego being right than experiencing something bigger than themselves. As I told you in my very first post, it could be correct, neither you nor me can prove anything about it at present.

If it isn't verifiable then it isn't evidence. Your argument seems to boil down to "because I say so".

No, this particular thread is people with baby's first atheism-level hot takes ****ting on questions older than man (trust me, I've heard them before), thinking pointing at fallacies is a sound way of debating. You have committed several, but I did not point them out, as all people commit logical fallacies on the reg. Thinking that criticizing fallacies is an argument is itself a fallacy, known informally as the fallacy fallacy: Argument from fallacy - Wikipedia.

Have a nice day, I have more important things to do with my time than arguing with whelps.

By their fruits you will know them.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
The evidence exists, it just cannot be verified indepedently in certain humans because they care more about their ego being right than experiencing something bigger than themselves. As I told you in my very first post, it could be correct, neither you nor me can prove anything about it at present.

No, *objective* evidence does not exist. if you have to believe *before* you can understand the 'evidence', then it isn't really evidence: it is confirmation bias.

No, this particular thread is people with baby's first atheism-level hot takes ****ting on questions older than man (trust me, I've heard them before), thinking pointing at fallacies is a sound way of debating. You have committed several, but I did not point them out, as all people commit logical fallacies on the reg. Thinking that criticizing fallacies is an argument is itself a fallacy, known informally as the fallacy fallacy: Argument from fallacy - Wikipedia.

Have a nice day, I have more important things to do with my time than arguing with whelps.

When fallacies are, in fact, committed, it shows the argument containing those fallacies is, at best, incomplete. As the link says, it doesn't show the conclusion is false, but it does show the conclusion is unproven.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
"Research conducted at the University of British Columbia and Union College found that people's death anxiety was associated with support of intelligent design and rejection of evolutionary theory.

Death anxiety also influenced those in the study to report an increased liking for Michael Behe, a prominent proponent of intelligent design, and an increased disliking for Richard Dawkins, a well-known evolutionary biologist.

The findings suggest that people are motivated to believe in intelligent design and doubt evolutionary theory because of unconscious psychological motives.

The study was lead by UBC Psychology Assistant Professor Jessica Tracy and and UBC psychology PhD student Jason Martens. It was published in the March 30 issue of the open access journal PLoS ONE.

"Our results suggest that when confronted with existential concerns, people respond by searching for a sense of meaning and purpose in life," Tracy said. "For many, it appears that evolutionary theory doesn't offer enough of a compelling answer to deal with these big questions."
source and more

Considering the common motivation behind religious faith, it certainly makes sense to me.

.
What is it exactly that "certainly makes sense" to you?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
When I saw this thread the other day when it was on New Threads sidebar, I went to the Tracey et al. paper and marked it because I didn't have time to read it.

Who here has read the paper? I believe it is important to read and understand a study before trying to discuss it.

The authors conducted 5 different studies, some of which are only vaguely related to the others. The methodologies (and therefore the results) of the studies rest on a variety of assumptions, several of which are simply unstated. Some of the results are inconsistent with results of the other studies.

I am unsure that the sample of undergraduate psychology students used in Study 1, for example--in which 45% identified themselves as some sort of Christian, and 81% identified themselves with either some particular religion or as “spiritual”--is representative of psychology students or the general population in the US or Canada (from which all the participants came). For reasons not explained, the sample used in Study 1 was 72% women, who tend to be and identify as more religious, and tend to score higher on “religiosity” scales. The sample of psychology students used in Study 4 was 77% women. The participants recruited for Study 3 by an online survey research company were 55% women, whereas the sample of undergraduate students recruited for Study 2 (apparently from any major) were 40% women. Noteworthy is the fact that the participants of Study 2, with the higher percentage of males, “followed the same procedure as in Study 1, except that they did not complete the measure of intrinsic/extrinsic religiosity,” but yielded results that were different than the results of Study 1. But other than this comparison, the results of Study 2 do not allow one to reject the null hypothesis that imagining one's own death has no effect on a person's liking of Behe's description of Intelligent Design theory or dislike of Dawkins' description of Darwin's theory.

Somehow the focus of these studies seem to me rather petty and contentious. The authors did not bother to investigate one finding that at least one study indicated: wait 2 whole minutes, perhaps even provide the participant with something neutral to read for 2 minutes, between asking the person to imagine his/her own death and asking about his/her like or dislike of Intelligent Design theory and Darwin's theory. The “effect” that is the subject matter of these studies, where imagining one's death produces a liking or disliking of these theories, seems to have evaporated during this 2-minute interval.

The authors do not say what “religiosity” measurement was performed, only that participants “rated their religiosity on a 10-point scale ranging from 1 ('not at all') to 10 ('extremely'), [and] completed a measure of intrinsic (Cronbach's α = .72) and extrinsic (Cronbach's α = .79) religiosity.” “Religiosity” is certainly not a self-defining term. The 10-point Centrality of Religiosity Scale asks these questions:

01: How often do you think about religious issues?
02: To what extent do you believe that God or something divine exists?
03: How often do you take part in religious services?
04: How often do you pray?
05: How often do you experience situations in which you have the feeling that God or something divine intervenes in your life?
06: How interested are you in learning more about religious topics?
07: To what extend do you believe in an afterlife—e.g. immortality of the soul, resurrection of the dead or reincarnation?
08: How important is to take part in religious services?
09: How important is personal prayer for you?
10: How often do you experience situations in which you have the feeling that God or something divine wants to communicate or to reveal something to you?​

There are different ways to score frequency and degree in the answers to these question.

The Intrinsic/Extrinsic Religion Scale requires subjects to either agree or disagree with these statements:

1. I enjoy reading about my religion.
2. I go to church because it helps me to make friends.
3. It doesn't much matter what I believe so long as I am good.
4. It is important to me to spend time in private thought and prayer.
5. I have often had a strong sense of God's presence.
6. I pray mainly to gain relief and protection.
7. I try hard to live all my life according to my religious beliefs.
8. What religion offers me most is comfort in times of trouble and sorrow.
9. Prayer is for peace and happiness.
10. Although I am religious, I don't let it affect my daily life.
11. I go to church mostly to spend time with my friends.
12. My whole approach to life is based on my religion.
13. I go to church mainly because I enjoy seeing people I know there.
14. Although I believe in my religion, many other things are more important in life.​

Exactly how these statements measure a person's “intrinsic” vs. “extrinsic” religious affinities is beyond my understanding. To my mind, item #10 states a contradiction.

In any case, psychology studies are notorious for having results that cannot be replicated. One can only wonder if that might be the case with the results of these studies.
 
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