Science is Magic!

[Jayhawker Soule]

No matter how people spin it, science isn't just about studying nature and its phenomena. It's also fundamentally about control.

^ rubbish

 

[sayak83]

No matter how people spin it, science isn't just about studying nature and its phenomena. It's also fundamentally about control. The drive to know everything stems from a deep-seated fear of an uncontrollable and chaotic natural world that threatens us with extinction at every turn. Some so-called geniuses in the transhumanist wing of the cult of scientific progress even aspire to conquer death by turning themselves into immortal mega-robots. And astonishingly, some people actually cheer for these delusional and unhinged prophets of modern technology, failing to see the truth—science has become like Harry Potter. That’s right. Science now dreams of the irrational and claims that anything is possible. Some science enthusiasts don't even recognize the absurdity of flying cars and warp drives—they genuinely believe in them because, to them, SCIENCE IS MAGIC!

They actually buy into Arthur C. Clarke's misguided and obviously problematic quip, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic," as if it were a serious truth. But this kind of magical thinking is nothing new to science—its roots are deeply entwined with the irrational. Science didn’t descend from the heavens like some alien Prometheus bringing us the Fire of Knowledge. The dirty little secret is that science was nurtured at the breast of the irrational. Science’s roots are in magic, and the fruit doesn’t fall far from the tree. Consider these examples:

• Alchemy birthed chemistry.
• Pythagorean mathematics laid the foundation for modern mathematics.
• Hermeticism heavily influenced Newton and other early scientists' views on the universe.
• Astrology evolved into modern astronomy.
• Sympathetic magic and theurgy focused on classifying, quantifying, and taxonomy.

So, are we willing to face the truth that science, for all its advancements, is still deeply rooted in the mystical and irrational? Or will we continue to indulge in magical thinking disguised as progress, ignoring the fact that our quest for control and understanding might just be an extension of the very enchantments we once sought to overcome? Looks like the line between magic and science is not as clear as people like to think.

A helicopter is a flying car.
Thanks.
Warp drive is science fiction. There is no existing science that supports such a technology.
I advise you to do a PhD in the sciences. You will find that there is nothing much magical about it. A lot of slogging though.

 

[Pogo]

A helicopter is a flying car.
Thanks.
Warp drive is science fiction. There is no existing science that supports such a technology.
I advise you to do a PhD in the sciences. You will find that there is nothing much magical about it. A lot of slogging though.

A High School education at a decent HS is generally sufficient.
Just saying.

 

[YoursTrue]

Except that we are apes and always will be, here is a case where you are already in the dark ignorant past.

whether you want to (or scientists may want to) call humans apes, humans are still not gorillas or bonobos. And the "Unknown" ancestor of them all is still unknown. Go figure and scientists have not found the answer.

 

[YoursTrue]

A helicopter is a flying car.
Thanks.
Warp drive is science fiction. There is no existing science that supports such a technology.
I advise you to do a PhD in the sciences. You will find that there is nothing much magical about it. A lot of slogging though.

Much as I enjoy the idea of cars, there are many accidents on the road and I'm always wary when I drive. Be that as it is, the pollution from many inventions is not good. Perhaps you think the pollution from inventions like that is ok. Yes?

 

[RestlessSoul]

^ rubbish

No, it's really not rubbish. It's an observation worthy of consideration. Man has been attempting to predict, subdue, and manipulate nature, thereby controlling his environment, since we first learned to think before we act; and the natural sciences have been part of this process.

 

[anotherneil]

Or, maybe science is just about figuring out much more reliable ways of figuring out how to put roofs over our heads, food on our plate, getting energy, dealing with environmental challenges & hostility, etc. rather than hoping that sacrificing virgins to volcanoes will improve things.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Or, maybe science is just about figuring out much more reliable ways of figuring out how to put roofs over our heads, food on our plate, getting energy, dealing with environmental challenges & hostility, etc. rather than hoping that sacrificing virgins to volcanoes will improve things.

Okay, so now that science has given us the H-bomb and the iPhone, what can it tell us about how to use them?

 

[AppieB]

No matter how people spin it, science isn't just about studying nature and its phenomena. It's also fundamentally about control. The drive to know everything stems from a deep-seated fear of an uncontrollable and chaotic natural world that threatens us with extinction at every turn. Some so-called geniuses in the transhumanist wing of the cult of scientific progress even aspire to conquer death by turning themselves into immortal mega-robots. And astonishingly, some people actually cheer for these delusional and unhinged prophets of modern technology, failing to see the truth—science has become like Harry Potter. That’s right. Science now dreams of the irrational and claims that anything is possible. Some science enthusiasts don't even recognize the absurdity of flying cars and warp drives—they genuinely believe in them because, to them, SCIENCE IS MAGIC!

They actually buy into Arthur C. Clarke's misguided and obviously problematic quip, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic," as if it were a serious truth. But this kind of magical thinking is nothing new to science—its roots are deeply entwined with the irrational. Science didn’t descend from the heavens like some alien Prometheus bringing us the Fire of Knowledge. The dirty little secret is that science was nurtured at the breast of the irrational. Science’s roots are in magic, and the fruit doesn’t fall far from the tree. Consider these examples:

• Alchemy birthed chemistry.
• Pythagorean mathematics laid the foundation for modern mathematics.
• Hermeticism heavily influenced Newton and other early scientists' views on the universe.
• Astrology evolved into modern astronomy.
• Sympathetic magic and theurgy focused on classifying, quantifying, and taxonomy.

So, are we willing to face the truth that science, for all its advancements, is still deeply rooted in the mystical and irrational? Or will we continue to indulge in magical thinking disguised as progress, ignoring the fact that our quest for control and understanding might just be an extension of the very enchantments we once sought to overcome? Looks like the line between magic and science is not as clear as people like to think.

What is magic?

 

[anotherneil]

Okay, so now that science has given us the H-bomb and the iPhone, what can it tell us about how to use them?

I suppose that you're asking in the context of how to use them for the sake of what's in the best interest for humanity? If so, then I'd say this is more of a philosophical ethics/morality type of question rather than something science is geared for addressing.

If not, then I don't know what you mean.

 

[anotherneil]

What is magic?

I like this question & I'd like to address it: magic is the result of human experience when the observe something that they don't understand; in some cases it's an illusion created by other humans who do understand a few things, including the process to create the illusion and how it creates an observable effect that results in a the audience believing that the illusion occurred. By illusion, I mean that the audience observed something that appeared differently from what actually occurred. In some cases it's done to entertain or amuse an audience & sometimes can be done to deceive the audience for financial gain or to trick them into believing that they have supernatural powers for religious reasons.

 

[AppieB]

I like this question & I'd like to address it: magic is the result of human experience when the observe something that they don't understand; in some cases it's an illusion created by other humans who do understand a few things, including the process to create the illusion and how it creates an observable effect that results in a the audience believing that the illusion occurred. By illusion, I mean that the audience observed something that appeared differently from what actually occurred. In some cases it's done to entertain or amuse an audience & sometimes can be done to deceive the audience for financial gain or to trick them into believing that they have supernatural powers for religious reasons.

Well, that's one definition. I'm wondering what the TS means by magic so I can understand his post. Doesn't make much sense now.
You're describing illusions and tricks as a way to entertain (or con) people. It is the illusion of magic, but not magic I would argue when we discuss these matters in these contexts.
But I appreciate your post anyway

 

[anotherneil]

Well, that's one definition. I'm wondering what the TS means by magic so I can understand his post. Doesn't make much sense now.
You're describing illusions and tricks as a way to entertain (or con) people. It is the illusion of magic, but not magic I would argue when we discuss these matters in these contexts.
But I appreciate your post anyway

That's just an example of what I think magic is about; I also include things that occur naturally that aren't the result of an act of illusion by an entertainer or con artist.

I don't think there is any magic (there's no such thing) other than natural phenomenon we don't understand, and the illusions by entertainers or con artists.

I'm fairly curious about what the TS will say, though.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That's just an example of what I think magic is about; I also include things that occur naturally that aren't the result of an act of illusion by an entertainer or con artist.

I don't think there is any magic (there's no such thing) other than natural phenomenon we don't understand, and the illusions by entertainers or con artists.

I'm fairly curious about what the TS will say, though.

There is the concept of magical thinking in psychology if I remember correct.

 

[anotherneil]

There is the concept of magical thinking in psychology if I remember correct.

Perhaps there's a relationship with it and what the TS is talking about - does one stand out to you?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Perhaps there's a relationship with it and what the TS is talking about - does one stand out to you?

Who is TS?

 

[anotherneil]

Who is TS?

Thread Starter (the forum member who started this thread aka OP).

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Perhaps there's a relationship with it and what the TS is talking about - does one stand out to you?

No, not for psychology as such. It is more about philosophy in a sense. But never mind, that. It was only an aside from my side.

 

[Pogo]

Okay, so now that science has given us the H-bomb and the iPhone, what can it tell us about how to use them?

No, and it was never intended to and never will.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

What is magic?

I define it as the suspension of the laws of physics by willing it, much like miracles. So far, there's no evidence that that happens.

No matter how people spin it, science isn't just about studying nature and its phenomena. It's also fundamentally about control.

That's what all knowledge is about. We make inductions from experience that allow us to predict future outcome in order to create or find desirable ones and prevent or avoid undesirable ones.

The drive to know everything stems from a deep-seated fear of an uncontrollable and chaotic natural world that threatens us with extinction at every turn.

Fear? No, that's religion. Early man sought ways to appease the gods he imagined were causing famines and plagues, and they did it with prayers, and rituals that included sacrificing lives. Most of us have come a long way since then, but not everybody.

What are you afraid of that you created a thread like this to demean science? Your gods are safe from science, which only deals with what can be experienced.

Some so-called geniuses in the transhumanist wing of the cult of scientific progress even aspire to conquer death by turning themselves into immortal mega-robots. And astonishingly, some people actually cheer for these delusional and unhinged prophets of modern technology, failing to see the truth—science has become like Harry Potter.

Cult? Once again, I leave that to the superstitious.

They actually buy into Arthur C. Clarke's misguided and obviously problematic quip, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic," as if it were a serious truth.

Clarke was correct. It is you who is misguided. Religion can do that to people. It's caused you to come onto the internet with your hair on fire and take unflattering positions.

Science’s roots are in magic, and the fruit doesn’t fall far from the tree. Consider these examples:

• Alchemy birthed chemistry.
• Pythagorean mathematics laid the foundation for modern mathematics.
• Hermeticism heavily influenced Newton and other early scientists' views on the universe.
• Astrology evolved into modern astronomy.
• Sympathetic magic and theurgy focused on classifying, quantifying, and taxonomy.

Alchemy and astrology are faith-based pursuits like theism. Science corrected them both and turned useless ideas like horoscopes into knowledge.

Newton was on the cusp of modernity and though he stood on the shoulders of earlier giants and saw further, he also had a foot into magic.

Theurgy is also part of your world, not science.

Mathematic is not magic. Au contraire. It is pure reason, although some concepts seem magical: 0.99999... = 1.0, dx is a non-zero amount less that any amount you can write in digits, an infinite number of positive amounts can add up to a finite number, and there are infinites that are infinitely greater that other infinities.

On the other hand, if we could travel back in time to any time before the 15th century and we had an iPhone, this device that is so common these days (although few know how it really works) would be pure magic.

Yes, which supports Clarke's comment.

Humans of the future will most likely laugh at the fact that many people once thought we came from apes

No, they will agree on that, but they will laugh that there were people who were insecure about that or took offense at it ("I ain't no monkey's uncle"). The science will survive for as long as man does, but religion is just a phase. It's the period in human history between when a certain primate first learned to wonder and reason in words about how the world works and when he got his answers. Some are already there. Some aren't, but perhaps their children are or will be. Eventually, it will join alchemy and astrology, which just about everybody in the first world has outgrown today, but not in Newton's day.