• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
Could it be that both can explain how and why? One in a material frame of reference and one in a spiritual frame of reference.

Yet when we combine both, we get the how's and why's working in harmony, it is not just religious or science focused, we become seekers of Truth, Seekers of the Light from no matter its source.

Regards Tony

quote-religion-without-science-is-superstition-science-without-religion-is-materialism-baha-u-llah-48-75-75.jpg


When religion tries to explain how things happen, it often appears for me to be rooted in superstition, as I reject mainstream spirituality.

When science tries to explain why things happen, it often appears for me to be rooted in nihilism, placing no urgency in man or need to extend life indefinitely. All I hear from scientists is the fact that "humans will no longer exist one day", rejecting any reason as to why we need to exist. "Materialism" is a OK word for this quote, but to me, replacing it with "nihilism" is much more poignant and to the point.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That is the reason why humans exist; to lessen the pain of other people.

This is no more of an explanation than saying that humans exist to eat bacon or that humans exist to swim. It's an unevidenced guess, and therefore has no truth value. Humans exist because the universe created the matter and physical laws necessary to assemble that matter into human beings. Nothing more can be said now without guessing, and no guess will shed any light.

Science cannot explain that through pure logic, theory or even through wisdom and sagacity.

Religions explain nothing. If science (empiricism) can't explain something, it can't be explained. Such lofty claims made for the religious "magisterium," but where's the beef? I can show you what the empiricists have come up with. It includes the technology to have this discussion globally and almost for messages to be sent and received almost instantaneously.


What is called materialism here works. It generates useful ideas that improve the human condition by making life longer, safer, more functional, more comfortable, easier, and more interesting. Religion just provides psychological comfort at best and inquisitions at its worst.

These days, I see more and more religious folks and atheist folks seeing eye to eye on some basic things.

But do you see them moving toward one another? I don't. I see that Abrahamic religion is creeping toward humanism, but science is unaffected by faith or religion.

I think one has not understood science, until they also find out what is to have faith, and that one has not understood their faith, until they also have embrace science.

Yes, you've already expressed this sentiment, and didn't attempt to justify it then, either.

You also didn't try to falsify my claim, "There is no place for faith in science." Science is unrelated to religious-type faith (unjustified belief). In fact, empiricism and critical thought are its antidote. And religion doesn't need to consult science to do its thing, either.

All you would need to do to falsify this claim is to show where faith (unjustified belief) is needed or useful in science, but you didn't. You didn't even try. You know by now what that means in humanist (academic) culture. You are considered incorrect until you do refute (falsify) the claim. If it is incorrect, you should be able to do that as I have rebutted (contradicted, not merely dismissed) your claim here. If I am correct, you cannot successfully refute me. That is why the last plausible, unrebutted statement in dialectic prevails. That's true in scientific peer review and courtroom trials - places where academic values prevail.
 
Last edited:

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
You "know" that Jesus Christ is a "fraud", but do not know what happened to me? Why I am smart and religious.

Wrong, i believe the stories of JC are a fraud. I believe JC was a good, honest terrorist fighting against roman occupation.. but thats another story.

Correct, Why you say you are smart and religious, i do not know
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
What happened to me then?
I don't know. You do not appear to be well educated in the sciences, nor do you even understand what the scientific method is. What did happen to you? Why do you refuse to continue to learn? You still can. You still have the abilities to learn the basics.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
In my understanding, I am both. I am Scientist in Religion and Religious in Science.

If you are truly interested in science, you should study the basic ideas of science with an open mind. I've read many of your posts, and as far as your posts go, you do not appear to be truly interested in learning how science works.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Why have scientists become less religious, less fundamental, and less principal in their faith over the centuries?

Why, over the centuries, have Theists become less scientific and less focused on using the mind?

I believe there is the "law of a second extraordinary talent." Great talents are so rare statistically that a single human cannot hold two excellent skills. This explains why people are becoming significant but narrow specialists.

In my understanding, I am both. I am Scientist in Religion and Religious in Science.
The roots of modern Science are in monasteries. The monk was trying to use logic during the study of Religion.
Monks discovered scientific methods.

Being theistic or being religious, as to what a person believe in, don’t make that theistic or religious person “good” or more “principled” than a person who is not religious or not theistic.

The words, “good” or “principled”, only really to what a person do or don’t do, not by what a person believe in, because a religious person are just as corruptible as non-religious person, whether it is due to power, greed, envy, jealousy, etc.

Power can corrupt a person, no matter what a person believe in or don’t believe in. People who have power can abuse it. How people use the power will determine if they are principled or not.

Being pious don’t make a person good or principled.

Being principled, and I mean real principled, is determined by one’s action, not belief.

The thing about belief, is that it too is easily corruptible, as much as power be corruptible.

Plus, belief can lead to bias, fanaticism and persecution, if left unchecked. Examples of belief left unchecked:
  • the Crusades,
  • the Spanish Inquisition,
  • the Counter Reformation, which led to the Thirty Years’ War (17th century).
I am not saying all religious people are “all bad”. But it certainly don’t make them “all good”.

Religious people can do bad things as much as non-religious people can.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
You "know" that Jesus Christ is a "fraud", but do not know what happened to me? Why I am smart and religious.
Can't one give one's argument in a reasonable way instead of hurling accusation and or playing with " Jesus Christ" , Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah never gave such a teachin, please? Right?

Regards
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
But do you see them moving toward one another? I don't. I see that Abrahamic religion is creeping toward humanism, but science is unaffected by faith or religion.

Isn't that all for the best?

Even though I like the trend, I don't really think Abrahamic faith "ought to" creep toward humanism. It's fine enough for me if an Abrahamic practitioner simply understands and accepts humanism (or atheism). Religion doesn't need to resemble science. And science sure as hell doesn't need to resemble religion.
 

Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
This is no more of an explanation than saying that humans exist to eat bacon or that humans exist to swim. It's an unevidenced guess, and therefore has no truth value. Humans exist because the universe created the matter and physical laws necessary to assemble that matter into human beings. Nothing more can be said now without guessing, and no guess will shed any light.

What is called materialism here works. It generates useful ideas that improve the human condition by making life longer, safer, more functional, more comfortable, easier, and more interesting. Religion just provides psychological comfort at best and inquisitions at its worst.

Oh the irony. Do you not understand that your materialism is what makes religion able to better function its own purpose? The utility of technology has allowed people to hold virtual meetings with each other, and many people meet online for the first time because of this ability.

Also, it might be a 'guess' that humans are meant to be generous for each other, but that's my guess and the reason why i live. Other people may have different ideas as to why they live, but my primary function to is to be generous to those who are my close family and friends. And I've done that to the point where I go broke many times doing so. If someone else has a better idea on how to spend their time and money, then that is their guess, too.

Nobody seems to really know what the meaning of life is, either.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Let me explain to you some of the fundamentals of my belief system.

Science explains how something happens, religion explains why they happen. In the question of human's own divinity, how something becomes divine is answered through sagacity, which is the application of logic and science, and why something becomes divine is answered through generosity, and helping people promote equality and positive liberty whenever possible. Many religions already do things like this; between tithing, feasts for the poor and charity drives, most religions answer the reason of why people exist.

In my hierarchy, sagacity comes from generosity, because those who are generous thus become wise from their generosity. One always compliments the other, and there should be no separation between the two. The trick, however, is to keep science in the realm of how and religion in the realm of why, when we use science to explain why or religion to explain how, that's when we start having problems. Thus, I completely reject your claims of "Scientist in Religion" and "Religious in Science". They are two separate fields and should be devoted as such.

And just to clarify, there should be no separation between the complimentary shift between both divine traits, but both sagacity and generosity should be considered separate fields.
I disagree with you very fundamentally. Religion(s) have made many, often quite bizarre, suggestions of "why" throughout human history -- not least including things like "if we please the gods, they'll help us, or at least not hurt us." This has led to such nonsensical activities as sacrifice (including human) to get beneficial results like rain! I am sorry to say it, but "pleasing the gods" can hardly be be a good reason why.

What is infinitely more important, in my view, is acquiring an understanding of human nature. Knowing something about who and what we are, what makes us a successful species, what works towards increasing benefit for all humans, and lessening suffering for all humans, is far, far likelier to provide some insight into why.

And to be honest, this is much more of a scientific pursuit than a religious one.
 

Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
What is infinitely more important, in my view, is acquiring an understanding of human nature. Knowing something about who and what we are, what makes us a successful species, what works towards increasing benefit for all humans, and lessening suffering for all humans, is far, far likelier to provide some insight into why.

And religion is a part of human nature, is it not? There is a natural tendency for some people to believe in God, including me, and we need to understand that. For me, generosity leads to sagacity, so having positive experiences leads to wisdom. And part of the human condition and having positive experiences is connecting to God at some level, for most people, anyways.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
And religion is a part of human nature, is it not? There is a natural tendency for some people to believe in God, including me, and we need to understand that. For me, generosity leads to sagacity, so having positive experiences leads to wisdom. And part of the human condition and having positive experiences is connecting to God at some level, for most people, anyways.
Again, I can't really agree. I don't think that generosity leads to sagacity -- I think an ability to observe reality, and reason through what makes that reality what it is, is what really leads to sagacity. Positive experiences, you must admit, sometimes leads to addiction, or to trying to have those positive experiences again, sometimes at cost to others.

As to your comment about "connecting to God," as someone who neither knows nor believes in any such being, that connection can only appear to be 100% one-sided -- the individual, and his imagination.
 

Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
Again, I can't really agree. I don't think that generosity leads to sagacity -- I think an ability to observe reality, and reason through what makes that reality what it is, is what really leads to sagacity.

This is very good stuff. I also believe in this, but that utilities and generosity enhances that affect.

Positive experiences, you must admit, sometimes leads to addiction, or to trying to have those positive experiences again, sometimes at cost to others.

Another good observation. However, there is more generosity and wisdom to understand long-term ramifications towards actions than simply doing the actions that make people feel the best. Telling a fat person to work out is in many ways more generous than giving a smoker a pack of cigarettes to smoke, even if the cigarettes do make the smoker feel better and well, it's rude in general to tell people to work out.

I use large, ambiguous terms like utility, generosity and sagacity because it is really up to each individual to determine what those things mean to them in their daily lives.

As to your comment about "connecting to God," as someone who neither knows nor believes in any such being, that connection can only appear to be 100% one-sided -- the individual, and his imagination.

Then maybe you've had the wrong experiences when trying to understand what God is. Instead of looking for God, maybe you should try to find something that you already know exists and use that as an anchor to find purpose and meaning in your life.

I couldn't believe in the God of Abraham, or really most personal Gods that exist in the imagination of so many, but I found a syntheist/pantheist concept of a synverse and decided to follow that instead. And I can demonstrate that there's many, many synverses, or one large synverse, if you understand the etymology of the word.

Or you can remain an Evangelical Humanist if that works for you too. :D
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Then maybe you've had the wrong experiences when trying to understand what God is. Instead of looking for God, maybe you should try to find something that you already know exists and use that as an anchor to find purpose and meaning in your life.
I have already done that, and I have written about it here on RF for several years now. I am not looking for God, any more than I am looking for a living Elvis Presley. I have all the purpose and meaning in my life that I need, and in fact I wrote a whole post on that several years ago. So, rather than point to it again (it's quite a while ago), I will repeat the whole post here.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Meaning and Purpose for the Secular Humanist

“Life’s a b!tch, then you die.”

I have long gathered, from believers I've known, that the only true meaning in life, and the purpose for our existence, has been provided for us by a “higher power.” As an atheist, I ought to concur with the nihilist view expressed in the opening quotation, yet I do not. But I've also never understood the religious view either. In this essay I hope to show that neither is true.

Created for a Purpose

Imagine that the universe and all it contains was created by an “intelligent designer.” Such a designer would surely have had reasons for such an effort, a purpose for the creation. Mankind, no more than a miniscule part of that creation, is unlikely to be able to grasp the fullness of the purpose for it. The best we should hope for is that we can muddle through and get it basically right – that we will fulfill our assigned bit of the overall purpose. But while we live, we can not know whether we have or have not done so.

Believers will tell us we have guides. The Torah, Bible, Qur’an, Vedas – whichever scriptures are believed – contain the plan and purpose for us to read and understand. For the secular, however, if these scriptures are meant to provide guidance, each of them constitutes among the worst instruction manuals ever conceived. Each of them is understood differently by every single reader. The best evidence of this is the proliferation of sects within every faith, based on alternate readings.

Yet even if we were able to discern completely our assigned purpose, that purpose would not be our own, but the designer’s. Consider for a moment the Belgian Blue cattle, bred by us to be double-muscled to provide more meat per animal. It is unlikely such an animal would be better off knowing for what purpose it was created. Those extra muscles have value for us, their designer, but none for the creature in its own right.

The same must hold true for me. As a creature with a purpose valuable only to another (the designer), I am stripped of value in my own right.

Now, most notions of a purpose given by the major religions are woefully inadequate. That my purpose might be simply to "believe," or to live a blameless life, so that I might be rewarded later for doing so (or punished otherwise), is a pretty weak basis for so great an act of creation. The idea that any god needs human praise, worship or service (God needs domestics?) is just plain silly. That these are what creation is about is simply ludicrous.

Then Why Am I Here?

There are endless answers to that question, all of them external to me, and most of them merely causal. “Because my parents had sex.” “Because Canada paid a ‘baby bonus’.” “Because DNA insists on its own replication.” These are all answers to the question, but don't satisfy. Nothing in those answers provides me with any meaning. There is nothing there to give my existence significance. Even less elevating is the notion that I am nothing more than the end of a long, completely natural and completely arbitrary process. Whoopee for me!

But perhaps, just perhaps, that is all that it is. The EvangelicalHumanist has never dogmatically denied the existence of an original creator, creative force or cosmic accident. EH doesn’t know how to understand the “first cause,” or even if there was one. But from that first cause on, there does seem to be sufficient evidence to explain a natural evolution from there-and-then to here-and-now.

So is that it then? Is the nihilism of the opening quote justified? Is there really no purpose or meaning to my existence? What “meaning” can arise from a cosmic accident, or from a long chain of natural, random events? These, too, answer the “why am I here question” in a merely causal sense, but not in a purposive way and thus never satisfy.

A Purpose of My Own

I said earlier that I believe I am the end of a natural but random series of events. This is not quite true. Since the appearance of conscious thought, people have been making choices, and every choice has an impact on what follows. I am who I am, in the world that I know, because early people followed herds; because the barons stood up to King John in 1215; because great thinkers thought; because of untold important and unimportant acts – of kindness or cruelty, hedonism or self-denial, selfishness or altruism. Because of all these and more, my world is what it is. Almost – but not quite – random.

But must that not mean that what follows me, how the world evolves from this very moment on, is to some extent – great or small – affected by me?

Now, at last, I have come to, and can choose, a purpose, a way to achieve a meaningful life that is my own, in my own right. I know that there will be a world post-me, just as I inhabit a world post-Hammurabi, post-Caesar, post-Genghis Khan and Hitler and Churchill. As they have contributed to the world I know, I will contribute to the world others will know, though certainly not to such extents as they did.

What will I do with that? What ultimate mark will my life leave on a world I shall never see, but will help to create?

Could I ask for a greater purpose?
 

Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
@Evangelicalhumanist

So you live to contribute to reality and society ... I think ... from what I've understood of what you just copied and pasted. I agree, but for me my contribution to the world is expanding the ideas of syntheism, developing a better Exaltism and creating part of the Universe as my own synverse right here on Earth.

And by the way, syn mean "to create" and verse means a place, so what I aim to do is to create places where virtually anything is possible. This could be part of a video game, like No Man's Sky, a book, like Harry Potter, a TV show or movie, like the Star Wars series, virtually anything that has the ability to change has the ability to be created at one point. Just by being this person in society who is trying to create his own life through a moment of time, I am doing exactly what you imagined what you want your life to be - a contribution to future society.

And although you don't, and will never believe it, that contribution will one day become God itself, when the Omniversal Point is realized and the Omniverse itself becomes human, humans will become the Omniverse, and life as we know it will virtually be one almost-infinite Synverse which anything can occur. Yes, I throw around the word Synverse like it already exists, but once we fully anthropomorphize nature and natural qualities are imbued to us, we will start existing not to continue our existence (food, sleep, shower, etc) but we will exist solely for our own creative imaginations. And then your contributions to this future reality will only be magnified from thereon.

That's what God means to me. God neither is nor isn't, it's becoming.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Why have scientists become less religious, less fundamental, and less principal in their faith over the centuries? Why, over the centuries, have Theists become less scientific and less focused on using the mind?

Have they?

That's a matter of debate, but let's assume it's true. If it is true, it is largely because what culture understand as "religious" or "theists" and what we understand as "science" have deviated from one another. Why that might be the case is a much more interesting question.


I believe there is the "law of a second extraordinary talent." Great talents are so rare statistically that a single human cannot hold two excellent skills. This explains why people are becoming significant but narrow specialists.

This is probably part of it, but in my experience it's less some law of extraordinary talent limiting expertise than how academia works as a field of study. You are required to hyper specialize at the post-graduate level, which makes holding multiple master's degrees or doctorate degrees pretty much not a thing. And while you can cross train (I did) it's not quite the same thing. Institutionalization of education introduces some frustrating limits.
 
Top