Science standards under threat in Arizona

[gnostic]

Conspicuous by its absence in your post.....any mention of ID creationists doing solid science to demonstrate the scientific validity of their beliefs, which would thereby justify including them in science curricula.

But I guess you at least made it quite clear that ID creationism is a social/political movement rather than genuine science.

Social, political and religious movements. Yes, I agreed.

It has nothing to do with science.

The Discovery Institute were founded by politicians and journalists, Gilder and Chaman, neither have science backgrounds.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yes, but I was deluding myself. I mean, just forcing myself to go out of the God system, and I ralized a multitude of logical absurdities. And Jesus giving his life for us? I mean, that did not look much of sacrifice when you know you come back. Looked suddenly like a joke, actually.

And all miracles were internal medicine miracles, ergo maybe no miracle at all. Never saw am amputee growing a new arm, independently of the amount of prayers.

I would have stayed, if I did.

Ciao

- viole

I see. I stayed with Christianity for the verifiable facts including Bible construction, fulfilled prophecy, totally accurate predictors of human behavior, etc. and you left because you lacked miracles.

 

[Bear Wild]

I see. I stayed with Christianity for the verifiable facts including Bible construction, fulfilled prophecy, totally accurate predictors of human behavior, etc. and you left because you lacked miracles.

Considering that for much of the Christianity there are not verifiable facts especially for the early myths and that it does not predict human behavior it is hard to understand your point.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Considering that for much of the Christianity there are not verifiable facts especially for the early myths and that it does not predict human behavior it is hard to understand your point.

Just yesterday, I was reading Daniel 9, which I consider to be written 6th century BCE, and the most liberal scholars 3rd century BCE. It predicts the precise year of the substitution/death of Jesus for our sin, guilt and shame.

I've seen archaeological finds for many years that verify hundreds of Bible dates, people, facts and more.

 

[viole]

I see. I stayed with Christianity for the verifiable facts including Bible construction, fulfilled prophecy, totally accurate predictors of human behavior, etc. and you left because you lacked miracles.

I left because the whole salvation theory, the claims of hidden miracles (shared by all religions in the world), the idea that someone could die and come back in a few days and sell Himself like the ultimate sacrifice, kangaroos in arks, universal deluges, Gods creating apes in His image, prophets using the belly of huge tunas as hotel rooms, talking serpents, etc. suddenly appeared like jokes.

I mean, if you go out of the system and start thinking at them without any emotional involvement, they look like that, don't they? Have you tried to do that?

Ciao

- viole

 

[BilliardsBall]

I left because the whole salvation theory, the claims of hidden miracles (shared by all religions in the world), the idea that someone could die and come back in a few days and sell Himself like the ultimate sacrifice, kangaroos in arks, universal deluges, Gods creating apes in His image, prophets using the belly of huge tunas as hotel rooms, talking serpents, etc. suddenly appeared like jokes.

I mean, if you go out of the system and start thinking at them without any emotional involvement, they look like that, don't they? Have you tried to do that?

Ciao

- viole

Yes, I have, since I didn't instantly lose my skeptical, materialist, rationalist mindset upon salvation. I told you I use hypotheses to test all biblical and non-biblical claims from all parties.

Where does it say God created apes in His image? It says "man and woman" in His image? And if you find apes "lesser" then you find people "greater" and ascribe anthropomorphic importance to God and man both.

 

[viole]

Yes, I have, since I didn't instantly lose my skeptical, materialist, rationalist mindset upon salvation. I told you I use hypotheses to test all biblical and non-biblical claims from all parties.

Where does it say God created apes in His image? It says "man and woman" in His image? And if you find apes "lesser" then you find people "greater" and ascribe anthropomorphic importance to God and man both.

It does not say nowhere that God created apes in His image. But that is sort of implicit. Since we are apes and the claim is that God created us in his image, then this is just an obvious consequence of the transitive property.

What is the problem? If you do not like the idea of us being apes, we can settle for primates. Better?

Ciao

- viole

 

[ecco]

Just yesterday, I was reading Daniel 9, which I consider to be written 6th century BCE, and the most liberal scholars 3rd century BCE. It predicts the precise year of the substitution/death of Jesus for our sin, guilt and shame.

Could you be specific. What part of Daniel 9 "predicts the precise year of the substitution/death of Jesus". Please show the verse(s).

Bible Hub shows Daniel 9 as:

9To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;​

 

[BilliardsBall]

24 “Seventy shabus ("sevens" or "weeks" meaning time periods of 7) have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.”

Paraphrased: "69*7 biblical years pass from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time when Messiah is cut off/killed to "make an end of sin, atonement for sin, bring in God's Kingdom, fulfill prophecy, and bring His blood to Heaven". He will be killed by Rome (people of the coming price, Titus destroyed Jerusalem then became Emperor, the Antichrist will come from Rome). Further, Jerusalem will be rebuilt by Jews from diaspora during times of oppression, using waterworks, as occurred."

483 years after Cyrus's decree (69 7s) is 30 AD. Jesus killed by Rome for human sin. I would say the prophecy is laser-specific, and indeed, ultra-Orthodox Hasidic Jews tell their men they forbid reading/studying Daniel 9 until they have 40 years in Talmud (because Jewish "insanity" is trusting Yeshua as Mashiach!). Wow!

 

[ecco]

I was reading Daniel 9, which I consider to be written 6th century BCE, and the most liberal scholars 3rd century BCE. It predicts the precise year of the substitution/death of Jesus for our sin, guilt and shame.

Could you be specific. What part of Daniel 9 "predicts the precise year of the substitution/death of Jesus". Please show the verse(s).

24 “Seventy shabus ("sevens" or "weeks" meaning time periods of 7) have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.”

Paraphrased: "69*7 biblical years pass from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time when Messiah is cut off/killed to "make an end of sin, atonement for sin, bring in God's Kingdom, fulfill prophecy, and bring His blood to Heaven". He will be killed by Rome (people of the coming price, Titus destroyed Jerusalem then became Emperor, the Antichrist will come from Rome). Further, Jerusalem will be rebuilt by Jews from diaspora during times of oppression, using waterworks, as occurred."

483 years after Cyrus's decree (69 7s) is 30 AD. Jesus killed by Rome for human sin. I would say the prophecy is laser-specific, and indeed, ultra-Orthodox Hasidic Jews tell their men they forbid reading/studying Daniel 9 until they have 40 years in Talmud (because Jewish "insanity" is trusting Yeshua as Mashiach!). Wow!

Wow, indeed.

It seems you got most of your information from JewsForJesus.org. Like most apologetics organizations, they went through a lot of mental gymnastics to try to make Daniel's writings sound like prophecy.

That isn't just my opinion. There is a well thought out, well written rebuttal here...
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/daniel-9-a-true-biblical-interpretation/
It concludes:

This is a brief explanation of Daniel chapter 9. Any attempt to apply this chapter to Jesus is erroneous and wrought with mistranslations and misinterpretations.

​

I tend to think the Jews for Judaism would have a more factual understanding than Jews for Jesus. The latter group obviously has a very biased view.

​

I suppose you could read it and get an opposing view, but I doubt you will read it.

When you state...

I told you I use hypotheses to test all biblical and non-biblical claims from all parties.

...I guess that didn't include Daniel.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Wow, indeed.

It seems you got most of your information from JewsForJesus.org. Like most apologetics organizations, they went through a lot of mental gymnastics to try to make Daniel's writings sound like prophecy.

That isn't just my opinion. There is a well thought out, well written rebuttal here...
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/daniel-9-a-true-biblical-interpretation/
It concludes:

This is a brief explanation of Daniel chapter 9. Any attempt to apply this chapter to Jesus is erroneous and wrought with mistranslations and misinterpretations.

​

I tend to think the Jews for Judaism would have a more factual understanding than Jews for Jesus. The latter group obviously has a very biased view.

​

I suppose you could read it and get an opposing view, but I doubt you will read it.

When you state...

...I guess that didn't include Daniel.

Where you say, "The latter group obviously has a very biased view" you know nothing about Jews for Judaism (and little about me). Of course I read it per your request. (I've personally met with one of the founders of Jews for Judaism before to discuss the issues, just the two of us, for over four hours, by the way.). For some examples:

"Christians, on the other hand, tend to focus on verses 24 -26."

Of course we do! They say in part: "...finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness..." and any alternate interpretation by my Jewish brethren has to explain, using any of the four decree dates of choice, how/when in the first century God used someone/something anointed to MAKE AN END OF/PAYMENT FOR ALL HUMAN SIN and also brought in ETERNAL RIGHTEOUSNESS in the 1st century without Yeshua of Nazareth.

As for the "four decrees":

The first two decrees only authorized the rebuilding of the temple. The third decree was the most comprehensive and authorized the rebuilding of the city of Jerusalem. This decree also authorized the appointed of magistrates, judges, and reestablished Jewish laws as the base of government and gave the Jewish nation more sovereignty. The fourth decree given to Nehemiah in Artaxerxes 20th year helped to fulfill the decree given to Ezra in 457 B.C. The third decree with its comprehensive nature, including the allowance of full autonomy to the Jews, the reestablishment of Jewish laws and sovereignty, is the only decree that fits exactly into the prophecy of Daniel 9.

The dates for the decrees of Artaxerxes are well known and historically secure by four lines of evidence. (1) Greek historians, (2) Ptolemy’s Canon, (3) The Babylonian business tablets, and (4) The Elephantine papyri from Egypt.

As someone put it: "What a wonderful God we serve. Among the many prophecies He gave about the Messiah He gave one that specified the exact time of Jesus’ ministry and crucifixion. What tremendous evidence He has given of His foreknowledge and of the inspiration of the scriptures."

Here's another JFJudaism "gem":

"This seven-year discrepancy is resolved by Christian theologians who redefined the definition of a “year.” They claim that prophecies like Daniel’s are to be understood in “Prophetic years” that have 360 days rather than 365 ¼ days. The argument that Daniel might be speaking to Babylonians who may have had a 360 year is unsubstantiated and refuted by the fact that this particular passage is spoken in Hebrew to Jews who had a different calendar then and Babylonians who spoke Aramaic."

Gosh, maybe Christians use the 360-day calendar because it is the calendar used consistently through the entire Hebrew scriptures! An interlinear leap month is occasionally inserted to reconcile the difference between the lunar and solar (365.25) years.

 

[ecco]

Where you say, "The latter group obviously has a very biased view" you know nothing about Jews for Judaism (and little about me).

ecco previously:
I tend to think the Jews for Judaism would have a more factual understanding than Jews for Jesus. The latter group obviously has a very biased view.​

It should be clear to anyone with a tenth grade education that when I used the term "latter group" I was referring to Jews For Jesus not Jews For Judaism.

Of course I read it per your request. (I've personally met with one of the founders of Jews for Judaism before to discuss the issues, just the two of us, for over four hours, by the way.). For some examples:

"Christians, on the other hand, tend to focus on verses 24 -26."

That's not an example. That's a quote. Who allegedly said that, you or the Rabbi? Did you record all four hours of the alleged conversation?

​

The rest of your post does nothing to counter the stance of Jews For Judaism. Specifically the part I quoted from their website:

This is a brief explanation of Daniel chapter 9. Any attempt to apply this chapter to Jesus is erroneous and wrought with mistranslations and misinterpretations.​

In other words, BB, Jews For Judaism unequivocally states that your interpretations are BS.

 

[BilliardsBall]

ecco previously:
I tend to think the Jews for Judaism would have a more factual understanding than Jews for Jesus. The latter group obviously has a very biased view.​

It should be clear to anyone with a tenth grade education that when I used the term "latter group" I was referring to Jews For Jesus not Jews For Judaism.


That's not an example. That's a quote. Who allegedly said that, you or the Rabbi? Did you record all four hours of the alleged conversation?

​

The rest of your post does nothing to counter the stance of Jews For Judaism. Specifically the part I quoted from their website:

This is a brief explanation of Daniel chapter 9. Any attempt to apply this chapter to Jesus is erroneous and wrought with mistranslations and misinterpretations.​

In other words, BB, Jews For Judaism unequivocally states that your interpretations are BS.

I was quoting the website article, and gave multiple instances, all of which you've dodged. I did not record my meeting with JFJ.

The article was a brief explanation of Daniel 9 without an alternative for Jesus Christ to explain how/why/when in the 1st century, which ALL FOUR decrees add to when adding 483 years, solar or lunar, ALL HUMAN SIN WAS PAID.

 

[ecco]

I was quoting the website article, and gave multiple instances, all of which you've dodged. I did not record my meeting with JFJ.

The article was a brief explanation of Daniel 9 without an alternative for Jesus Christ to explain how/why/when in the 1st century, which ALL FOUR decrees add to when adding 483 years, solar or lunar, ALL HUMAN SIN WAS PAID.

This conversation started because you said the OT of the Bible, specifically Daniel 9, precisely predicted the coming (or death) of Jesus. To support your argument you posted excerpts from a Jews for Jesus website.

I checked into a Jews for Judaism website because I believe that Jews would have a better understanding of the OT than a biased group like Jew for Jesus.

Here is what they have to say...

This is a brief explanation of Daniel chapter 9. Any attempt to apply this chapter to Jesus is erroneous and wrought with mistranslations and misinterpretations.​

In other words, BB, Jews For Judaism unequivocally states that your interpretations are BS.
In other words, BB, Jews For Judaism unequivocally states that the interpretations by Jews for Jesus are BS.

 

[BilliardsBall]

This conversation started because you said the OT of the Bible, specifically Daniel 9, precisely predicted the coming (or death) of Jesus. To support your argument you posted excerpts from a Jews for Jesus website.

I checked into a Jews for Judaism website because I believe that Jews would have a better understanding of the OT than a biased group like Jew for Jesus.

Here is what they have to say...

This is a brief explanation of Daniel chapter 9. Any attempt to apply this chapter to Jesus is erroneous and wrought with mistranslations and misinterpretations.​

In other words, BB, Jews For Judaism unequivocally states that your interpretations are BS.
In other words, BB, Jews For Judaism unequivocally states that the interpretations by Jews for Jesus are BS.

I understand:

1) Jews for Judaism, which raises funds to a) deconvert Jewish Christians and b) prevent Christian conversion of Jews is unbiased and has no agenda

2) This unbiased group makes no unprovable assertions, such as "any attempt to apply this chapter to Jesus is by default, erroneous"

3) You have no response, nor does JFJ, whom I've already approached with my objection, which they likewise ignored, that Daniel 9--which they say has to happen at one of four points in the first century CE, says SOMEONE/SOMETHING WILL END HUMAN SIN and reconcile ALL PERSONS, REMOVING THEIR SIN.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I understand:

1) Jews for Judaism, which raises funds to a) deconvert Jewish Christians and b) prevent Christian conversion of Jews is unbiased and has no agenda

2) This unbiased group makes no unprovable assertions, such as "any attempt to apply this chapter to Jesus is by default, erroneous"

3) You have no response, nor does JFJ, whom I've already approached with my objection, which they likewise ignored, that Daniel 9--which they say has to happen at one of four points in the first century CE, says SOMEONE/SOMETHING WILL END HUMAN SIN and reconcile ALL PERSONS, REMOVING THEIR SIN.

You misunderstood. They accurately interpret that verse. That it supports their views is besides the point. And according to even your standards that is a failed prophecy. "Sin" was not removed in the first century CE. At best Jesus only atoned for our sins (and how this makes no sense at all is another point altogether).

 

[ecco]

That isn't just my opinion. There is a well thought out, well written rebuttal here...
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/daniel-9-a-true-biblical-interpretation/
It concludes:
This is a brief explanation of Daniel chapter 9. Any attempt to apply this chapter to Jesus is erroneous and wrought with mistranslations and misinterpretations.

I
3) You have no response, nor does JFJ, whom I've already approached with my objection, which they likewise ignored,

They ignored your objection? You said the leaders met with you for fours. That's not ignoring you. What you really mean is that, after listening to you for four hours, they dismissed your notions as nonsensical.

Furthermore, the article From Jews For Judaism ... https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/daniel-9-a-true-biblical-interpretation/
... is over 5000 words. So when you say they "have no response", you are not being truthful.

It's clear that your assertion that the Bible, in Daniel 9, precisely predicts anything about Jesus is nothing more that a fiction that you cooked up (or took from someone else). It's really sad you have to resort to such nonsense to justify you beliefs.

 

[Bear Wild]

Yes, I have, since I didn't instantly lose my skeptical, materialist, rationalist mindset upon salvation. I told you I use hypotheses to test all biblical and non-biblical claims from all parties.

Where does it say God created apes in His image? It says "man and woman" in His image? And if you find apes "lesser" then you find people "greater" and ascribe anthropomorphic importance to God and man both.

Humans say that god created man in his own image. Humans not god. Have you ever seen god to determine what animal or plant most looks like god?

 

[BilliardsBall]

You misunderstood. They accurately interpret that verse. That it supports their views is besides the point. And according to even your standards that is a failed prophecy. "Sin" was not removed in the first century CE. At best Jesus only atoned for our sins (and how this makes no sense at all is another point altogether).

Please explain how Christians, not JFJudaism, misunderstand almost half the chapter:

“Seventy sevens are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

25 “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

The prophecies have come true. The "anointed" the JFJudaism downplay is called Anointed THE PRINCE, just like Messiah is called PRINCE OF PEACE in Isaiah 9, etc.

 

[BilliardsBall]

They ignored your objection? You said the leaders met with you for fours. That's not ignoring you. What you really mean is that, after listening to you for four hours, they dismissed your notions as nonsensical.

Furthermore, the article From Jews For Judaism ... https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/daniel-9-a-true-biblical-interpretation/
... is over 5000 words. So when you say they "have no response", you are not being truthful.

It's clear that your assertion that the Bible, in Daniel 9, precisely predicts anything about Jesus is nothing more that a fiction that you cooked up (or took from someone else). It's really sad you have to resort to such nonsense to justify you beliefs.

Please explain how Christians, not JFJudaism, misunderstand almost half the chapter:

“Seventy sevens are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

25 “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

The prophecies have come true. The "anointed" the JFJudaism downplay is called "Anointed THE PRINCE", just like Messiah is called PRINCE OF PEACE in Isaiah 9, etc.