Science standards under threat in Arizona

[BilliardsBall]

Atheists have seen both sides they have also seen how religious humans have had no problem with killing other humans based on belief.

Not answering my question of you:

In the animal kingdom, it is PREFERABLE to prey upon the weak, the helpless, so why the double standard in your human moral expectation?

And if you believe in doing good "just to benefit others", how did you come to believe in absolute morality/absolute good without expectation of return?

 

[SkepticThinker]

"Do unto others so they won't do unto you..." - ST

"Do unto others as you would like to be treated, even with your enemies..." - JC

Why the difference, do you think?

Okay, so your answer is that we should do unto Hitler as we would have done to ourselves? We should treat Hitler as we would like to be treated?
That's your answer to my question?
How do you think that would have worked out?

I think my version of morality makes more sense. Instead of parroting verses in an old book, I believe we need to reasonably, rationally and logically assess a situation in order to decide what the best moral action would be. In the case of the Hitler, he was certainly not treating others as he would like to be treated. So why should the same courtesy be extended to him, especially when his actions involved the murder of millions and millions of people?

 

[Bear Wild]

Not answering my question of you:

In the animal kingdom, it is PREFERABLE to prey upon the weak, the helpless, so why the double standard in your human moral expectation?

And if you believe in doing good "just to benefit others", how did you come to believe in absolute morality/absolute good without expectation of return?

Animals including humans kill to eat. That is a natural event. Of all the creatures on the earth humans have been the cruelest to other life than any other organism. Morality comes from humans. It can be learned from the natural world including the human aspect of the natural world. As for the animal kingdom it is life and death choices to choose and animal which is weaker to avoid death for the animal needing food. Choosing a weaker pray is not a moral issue it is a life or death issue. Many predators have been killed or fatally wounded by the pray they seek. One important aspect to this is that the more experienced prey animals are more likely to survive and pass down survival skills to the rest of their social group. Humans kill the best looking one often for no reason than to put up antlers for instance on their wall. They are typically eliminating the ones that could pass down survival skills to the others of that group. Very different effects.

 

[Polymath257]

Celibacy and marriage are "bigotry and hatred"? You have some odd moral perspectives.

Celibacy is fine for those who want it. Marriage is a matter of whether people want government approval. And what about gays? They should have equal rights for both.

Also, I don't assume monogamy in marriage.

 

[Polymath257]

Wait a moment, you don't believe "Do unto others so they don't do unto you" but "Rather, do good for its own sake"?

That would imply you believe in absolute good:

a) Good done without expectation of return
b) Absolute good exists
c) Absolute morals exist
d) Right and wrong/better choices exist

How do you explain this metaphysical stance you've made?

Only a) and d). Metaphysics? Not at all. Just caring.

 

[gnostic]

What about fear of judgment? When a student studies for a test because they fear expulsion from college, is that "selfish" or "self-preservation"?

Again, with moving the goalpost.

What does any of that have to what I have said, or what you have said earlier?

If you were selfless, you would care for others, without having strings attached, and you wouldn’t need ancient book to tell you to know and do the right things.

If you have to have a book to tell you what you to do, to pressure you to do good (eg the threat of hell and eternal punishment), then how can anyone possibly tell you caring for others are genuine.

You know what they say that if you are only say “I am sorry” because someone tell you to or order to say sorry, then most likely the apology isn’t genuine. That actually applies to caring for other people.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Animals including humans kill to eat. That is a natural event. Of all the creatures on the earth humans have been the cruelest to other life than any other organism. Morality comes from humans. It can be learned from the natural world including the human aspect of the natural world. As for the animal kingdom it is life and death choices to choose and animal which is weaker to avoid death for the animal needing food. Choosing a weaker pray is not a moral issue it is a life or death issue. Many predators have been killed or fatally wounded by the pray they seek. One important aspect to this is that the more experienced prey animals are more likely to survive and pass down survival skills to the rest of their social group. Humans kill the best looking one often for no reason than to put up antlers for instance on their wall. They are typically eliminating the ones that could pass down survival skills to the others of that group. Very different effects.

I think you get it!

"Of all the creatures on the earth humans have been the cruelest to other life than any other organism."

Do you know the Christian apologetic for this, and the Christian solution? I wouldn't even need a lock on my car or bike if everyone was as devoted to Jesus Christ.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Okay, so your answer is that we should do unto Hitler as we would have done to ourselves? We should treat Hitler as we would like to be treated?
That's your answer to my question?
How do you think that would have worked out?

I think my version of morality makes more sense. Instead of parroting verses in an old book, I believe we need to reasonably, rationally and logically assess a situation in order to decide what the best moral action would be. In the case of the Hitler, he was certainly not treating others as he would like to be treated. So why should the same courtesy be extended to him, especially when his actions involved the murder of millions and millions of people?

Actually, yes. People tried to convert Hitler to biblical Christianity--this would have forestalled the Holocaust, for example. YES.

The Bible contains hundreds of laws and thousands of commands, principles and precepts, ALL of which are good for good individuals and societies on the whole, YES.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Celibacy is fine for those who want it. Marriage is a matter of whether people want government approval. And what about gays? They should have equal rights for both.

Also, I don't assume monogamy in marriage.

Interesting! They didn't have gay marriage in Israel, but you would have liked the NT to engineer this, since you recognize the scriptures as a morally progressive tool.

This despite the fact that the Bible doesn't share your opinion above, "Marriage is a matter of whether people want government approval," but says marriage is ordained by God, three in a marriage, a man, a woman, and God.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Only a) and d). Metaphysics? Not at all. Just caring.

"Caring" for others to do "good" unto them isn't metaphysics? Let me help you:

Math, logic, spirit, love and justice are not tangibly weighted or measured. They are intangible, metaphysical.

It was so much easier years ago when skeptics said good and evil didn't exist, rather than continually epically fail by claiming moral high ground, using moral arguments against a moral God, who has morally judged them and morally slain the Christ on their behalf.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Again, with moving the goalpost.

What does any of that have to what I have said, or what you have said earlier?

If you were selfless, you would care for others, without having strings attached, and you wouldn’t need ancient book to tell you to know and do the right things.

If you have to have a book to tell you what you to do, to pressure you to do good (eg the threat of hell and eternal punishment), then how can anyone possibly tell you caring for others are genuine.

You know what they say that if you are only say “I am sorry” because someone tell you to or order to say sorry, then most likely the apology isn’t genuine. That actually applies to caring for other people.

What does your choice of word, selfless, mean?

* We have selves that we self-preserve
* We weigh intangibles like love and justice and sacrifice to be self-less, self-sacrificing
* It couldn't be possible the Christ is selfless or made a self-sacrifice, yes?

 

[Polymath257]

"Caring" for others to do "good" unto them isn't metaphysics? Let me help you:

Math, logic, spirit, love and justice are not tangibly weighted or measured. They are intangible, metaphysical.

They are ideas, which are manifested physically in the universe.

It was so much easier years ago when skeptics said good and evil didn't exist, rather than continually epically fail by claiming moral high ground, using moral arguments against a moral God, who has morally judged them and morally slain the Christ on their behalf.

I agree it was probably easier for you to have an alternative morality presented that is better than the one promoted by religions.

The moral arguments against the deities of most religions are trivial to make. What is difficult is to twist logic to make the deities seem moral when they clearly are not.

 

[Polymath257]

Interesting! They didn't have gay marriage in Israel, but you would have liked the NT to engineer this, since you recognize the scriptures as a morally progressive tool.

This despite the fact that the Bible doesn't share your opinion above, "Marriage is a matter of whether people want government approval," but says marriage is ordained by God, three in a marriage, a man, a woman, and God.

Exactly. it gets away from the moral center: what happens to real people with real emotions, and focuses on a non-issue: what some inscrutible mythical deity wants of us.

That is *precisely* why this viewpoint is immoral and leads to so much evil in the world.

The bond is between two people. That is what is important. The threesome obtained by introducing a deity is like a bad role-playing game.

 

[Polymath257]

What does your choice of word, selfless, mean?

* We have selves that we self-preserve
* We weigh intangibles like love and justice and sacrifice to be self-less, self-sacrificing
* It couldn't be possible the Christ is selfless or made a self-sacrifice, yes?

Of course it is possible he made a selfless sacrifice. It is also possible he was mislead and did so under false beliefs. It happens all the time.

The willingness of someone to die for their cause doesn't imply the cause is a good one.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I think you get it!

"Of all the creatures on the earth humans have been the cruelest to other life than any other organism."

Do you know the Christian apologetic for this, and the Christian solution? I wouldn't even need a lock on my car or bike if everyone was as devoted to Jesus Christ.

Mmmhmm. So only atheists commit crimes?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Actually, yes. People tried to convert Hitler to biblical Christianity--this would have forestalled the Holocaust, for example. YES.

How did that work out?

Hitler already followed some brand of Christianity. "Gott mit uns", anyone? Didn't stop him from doing terrible things.

So after it was clear that Hitler's master plan was to kill millions of people, should we have continued to be nice to him, to the detriment of those millions of people? How practical or logical is that?

From my point of view, Hitler doesn't deserve to be treated as I would like to be treated because he was a mass murderer who took the lives of millions of people.

The Bible contains hundreds of laws and thousands of commands, principles and precepts, ALL of which are good for good individuals and societies on the whole, YES.

I think you've just demonstrated that this one is folly.

Who says every law, command, principle and precept in the Bible are all "good for good individuals and societies on the whole?" Oh that's right, the very Bible you're quoting. Sorry, I don't go for circular arguments. Slavery isn't good for all individuals and societies. Neither is genocide.

 

[BilliardsBall]

They are ideas, which are manifested physically in the universe.



I agree it was probably easier for you to have an alternative morality presented that is better than the one promoted by religions.

The moral arguments against the deities of most religions are trivial to make. What is difficult is to twist logic to make the deities seem moral when they clearly are not.

Interesting, to see again you write something like, "...make the deities seem moral when they clearly are not..."

And you know what is "clearly moral" about deities, because your morality is, as you wrote, an idea "which is manifested physically in the universe"? Double standard again--"I'll have metaphysical morality, but metaphysics aren't real." CHOOSE. Be consistent.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Exactly. it gets away from the moral center: what happens to real people with real emotions, and focuses on a non-issue: what some inscrutible mythical deity wants of us.

That is *precisely* why this viewpoint is immoral and leads to so much evil in the world.

The bond is between two people. That is what is important. The threesome obtained by introducing a deity is like a bad role-playing game.

I think the issue is I agree regarding many religions, yet Jesus's morality and commands for marriage are not "inscrutable".

 

[BilliardsBall]

Of course it is possible he made a selfless sacrifice. It is also possible he was mislead and did so under false beliefs. It happens all the time.

The willingness of someone to die for their cause doesn't imply the cause is a good one.

What does it imply, then? It implies:

* Jesus may have been insane
* Jesus may have been deluded
* Jesus may have been "for real"

What death for cause implies is near-total or total belief. Jesus's belief was this:

Romans 5: 6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Mmmhmm. So only atheists commit crimes?

...as devoted to Jesus Christ...