Science standards under threat in Arizona

[Shaul]

Third grade? Seriously third grade? You are *****ing and moaning about what is taught in third grade. I can't believe it. I was specifically taking about high school. None of the topics that you brought up when you complained about other topics that could be taught are in a sixth grade classes much less a third grade one. Yes, by the time that students graduate from high school they should have a basic understanding of the fundamental concepts of science. That includes evolution. But it is going to be taught in high school. In the appropriate classes. The smattering one gets in elementary school will not get in the way of the other topics that you wish to have taught.

Not just third grade. Evolution is part of the curriculum in every grade until high school. Whatever you were taking about doesn’t change the fact the students have literally weeks of evolution classroom time. Third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth graders each get taught about evolution. Plus every student will get taught about evolution yet again during high school. That’s what I’m talking about. Weeks and weeks given over to a subject that 1) doesn’t require that much time, 2) uses time that can not be used to teach anything else, and 3) teaches a topic of dubious value.

Yes, a person could function perfectly well enough without any knowledge of evolution in today’s society. Yes, you read that right. How often does the difference between macro and micro evolution come up in someone’s job? Never, unless someone is in that field of evolutionary science. On the other hand, there is not a single field in our technological society that is not impacted by computers. Yet evolution must, must, must be taught, but basic computer science is optional? Your evaluation of how much emphasis to give which subjects is distorted. Furthermore you are doing a disservice to today’s youth. They will curse us for providing them with a poor education.

You just don’t get it. There are only a certain number of hours of classroom instruction. There is more content that could possibly be taught than there is time available. Therefore every subject that is taught means other things will not. The import of evolution does not justify how much time it takes up in the limited time available. It should be taught, yes. But it takes up too much of the limited time available.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Not just third grade. Evolution is part of the curriculum in every grade until high school. Whatever you were taking about doesn’t change the fact the students have literally weeks of evolution classroom time. Third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth graders each get taught about evolution. Plus every student will get taught about evolution yet again during high school. That’s what I’m talking about. Weeks and weeks given over to a subject that 1) doesn’t require that much time, 2) uses time that can not be used to teach anything else, and 3) teaches a topic of dubious value.

Yes, a person could function perfectly well enough without any knowledge of evolution in today’s society. Yes, you read that right. How often does the difference between macro and micro evolution come up in someone’s job? Never, unless someone is in that field of evolutionary science. On the other hand, there is not a single field in our technological society that is not impacted by computers. Yet evolution must, must, must be taught, but basic computer science is optional? Your evaluation of how much emphasis to give which subjects is distorted. Furthermore you are doing a disservice to today’s youth. They will curse us for providing them with a poor education.

You just don’t get it. There are only a certain number of hours of classroom instruction. There is more content that could possibly be taught than there is time available. Therefore every subject that is taught means other things will not. The import of evolution does not justify how much time it takes up in the limited time available. It should be taught, yes. But it takes up too much of the limited time available.

For some reason I am having a rather hard time believing you. The amount of time appears to be minimal Just think how many people do not seem to understand this basic fact. I seriously doubt your claim of "weeks and weeks".

But here is a simple test. Let's see if you know what you are talking about. Has macroevolution ever been directly observed?

 

[Shaul]

I think that he simply does not like the fact that evolution is taught in schools at all. Oddly enough his specific examples are not the sort of classes that are apt to be taught in high school at all. They are far too specialized and rely on more knowledge than one will get in a high school education. In elementary school exceedingly basic concepts are taught. Evolution will hardly affect his "zero sum" claim.

Well, if you had bothered to read my posts I wrote that evolution should be taught. What I wrote was that too much time is spent on it. It isn’t that difficult a subject. Currently evolution takes up 2-3 hours of classroom time each year during grades 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8. Then an additional 6-8 hours in high school. Waaaaay too much time.

Hello? Computer Science should be taught in high school. For you to argue that Computer Science shouldn’t be taught in high school but evolution absolutely must be shows how very out of kilter your values are.

 

[Shaul]

For some reason I am having a rather hard time believing you. The amount of time appears to be minimal Just think how many people do not seem to understand this basic fact. I seriously doubt your claim of "weeks and weeks".

But here is a simple test. Let's see if you know what you are talking about. Has macroevolution ever been directly observed?

You don’t have to take my word for it. Ask any teacher of grades 3-8 if they cover evolution in the year. They will confirm what I said. It is covered each year.

I am a teacher. I know what is being taught in the classrooms today. I know how much time is spent on the various subjects.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well, if you had bothered to read my posts I wrote that evolution should be taught. What I wrote was that too much time is spent on it. It isn’t that difficult a subject. Currently evolution takes up 2-3 hours of classroom time each year during grades 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8. Then an additional 6-8 hours in high school. Waaaaay too much time.

Hello? Computer Science should be taught in high school. For you to argue that Computer Science shouldn’t be taught in high school but evolution absolutely must be shows how very out of kilter your values are.

How is that "way too much time"? That is the same as saying an equivalent amount of time covering gravity in physics is way too much time. In fact even more so. Like it or not evolution is the underlying unifying force of biology. And perhaps your school is different, but there were no general science classes in my school by high school. So if a student only took physics that student would not see evolution if a student only took chemistry that student would not see any evolution. Two to three hours a year is nothing. And yet you complain.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You don’t have to take my word for it. Ask any teacher of grades 3-8 if they cover evolution in the year. They will confirm what I said. It is covered each year.

I am a teacher. I know what is being taught in the classrooms today. I know how much time is spent on the various subjects.

Yes, almost nothing. Less than a week for the most important concept in biology.

 

[BilliardsBall]

that is more than one unjustified assumption on your part.

1) You said you were imperfect.

2) Utopia includes people who are transformed, made perfect.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I encourage you to pick up a science journal and take a look through all the discussion, criticism and argumentation that goes on in the science world.
Maybe then you'll realize how silly your claims sound.

Not at all. I was responding to the folks on the thread who suggested SCHOOL is NO PLACE to debate ANYTHING in science. PGA.

 

[Woberts]

Not at all. I was responding to the folks on the thread who suggested SCHOOL is NO PLACE to debate ANYTHING in science. PGA.

There is no debate. Evolution can be scientifically proven, and creationism cannot.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Again, provide a standard by which creationism gets taught in science class, but the KKK's views on race don't.

Are you dare suggesting we not learn in school about the KKK's reprehensible, disgusting, racist views? Should the kids learn about the KKK "on the street"?

And while we're at it, you WANT the indoctrination to continue from the evolutionists, with their disgusting views that different RACES of men exist, creating more hostilities! GROSS.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Are you dare suggesting we not learn in school about the KKK's reprehensible, disgusting, racist views? Should the kids learn about the KKK "on the street"?

And while we're at it, you WANT the indoctrination to continue from the evolutionists, with their disgusting views that different RACES of men exist, creating more hostilities! GROSS.

So you don't actually know what evolutionary theory teaches. Cool. Good to know.

 

[Subduction Zone]

1) You said you were imperfect.

2) Utopia includes people who are transformed, made perfect.

You are still making unwarranted assumptions.

 

[viole]

Not at all. I was responding to the folks on the thread who suggested SCHOOL is NO PLACE to debate ANYTHING in science. PGA.

I agree with you. For example, the stork theory of child birth and the theory that planets are moved by invisible angels inside of it, are valid alternatives to embryology and gravitation. At least as valid as God creating women from ribs, talking snakes and prophets living three days inside giant tunas.

Lets’s teach the controversy, for FSM sake, so that children can use their educated and free will and decide what is fact and what is not.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Jose Fly]

Are you dare suggesting we not learn in school about the KKK's reprehensible, disgusting, racist views? Should the kids learn about the KKK "on the street"?

You're dodging the point. I specifically requested you provide a standard by which creationism gets taught in science class, and the KKK's views on race don't.

Try again.

And while we're at it, you WANT the indoctrination to continue from the evolutionists, with their disgusting views that different RACES of men exist, creating more hostilities! GROSS.

I suppose you would have a point if you could show any public school science material where such a concept is taught. Absent that, you're just arguing against your own imagination and paranoia.

 

[Jose Fly]

Currently evolution takes up 2-3 hours of classroom time each year during grades 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8. Then an additional 6-8 hours in high school. Waaaaay too much time.

So let's do the math.

According to the data, the typical school year consists of between 900-1,000 hours of instructional time. So according to you, through elementary and middle school, teachers spend around 0.3% of that time covering evolution. And then in high school it goes up to 0.8%. Of course most high school students don't take biology every year for 4 years (most take just the minimum required one year), so it's actually much less than that (around 0.2% of instructional time over 4 years).

If we total that up, we get 6 years of 3 hours per year in grades 3-8 (18 total hours), compared to 6,000 total hours of instruction time. Then in high school we get 1 year of 8 hours against 4,000 total hours of instruction time. Put those together and we get 24 total hours on evolution out of 10,000 total hours of instructional time from grades 3-12, or 0.24%.

If you honestly feel that less than one quarter of one percent of overall instructional time being spent on the unifying framework of all the life sciences is too much....well, I'm not sure what else to say, other than that I'm glad you're not setting public school curricula.

 

[metis]

You don’t have to take my word for it. Ask any teacher of grades 3-8 if they cover evolution in the year. They will confirm what I said. It is covered each year.

Yes, as this is what science education is at least partially about.

I am a teacher. I know what is being taught in the classrooms today. I know how much time is spent on the various subjects.

And when in high school way back when, my biology teacher skipped the chapter that covered it, and in the high school my oldest daughter went to, the biology teacher there skipped it as well. .

 

[Bear Wild]

Not just third grade. Evolution is part of the curriculum in every grade until high school. Whatever you were taking about doesn’t change the fact the students have literally weeks of evolution classroom time. Third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth graders each get taught about evolution. Plus every student will get taught about evolution yet again during high school. That’s what I’m talking about. Weeks and weeks given over to a subject that 1) doesn’t require that much time, 2) uses time that can not be used to teach anything else, and 3) teaches a topic of dubious value.

Yes, a person could function perfectly well enough without any knowledge of evolution in today’s society. Yes, you read that right. How often does the difference between macro and micro evolution come up in someone’s job? Never, unless someone is in that field of evolutionary science. On the other hand, there is not a single field in our technological society that is not impacted by computers. Yet evolution must, must, must be taught, but basic computer science is optional? Your evaluation of how much emphasis to give which subjects is distorted. Furthermore you are doing a disservice to today’s youth. They will curse us for providing them with a poor education.

You just don’t get it. There are only a certain number of hours of classroom instruction. There is more content that could possibly be taught than there is time available. Therefore every subject that is taught means other things will not. The import of evolution does not justify how much time it takes up in the limited time available. It should be taught, yes. But it takes up too much of the limited time available.

I have heard a similar argument for art, history, literature and many others. There or many things in science you done need to know to live so why should evolution be taught. First it is one of the most important scientific concepts which connects into other biological concepts such as ecology and taxonomy as examples. It reminds of how we are connected we are with the other life on this planet. Computers are already being integrated into all school systems I am aware of and it is an important subject in its own right.

 

[Skwim]

Well, if you had bothered to read my posts I wrote that evolution should be taught. What I wrote was that too much time is spent on it. It isn’t that difficult a subject. Currently evolution takes up 2-3 hours of classroom time each year during grades 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8. Then an additional 6-8 hours in high school. Waaaaay too much time.

Hello? Computer Science should be taught in high school. For you to argue that Computer Science shouldn’t be taught in high school but evolution absolutely must be shows how very out of kilter your values are.

When I went to high school one had to learn a foreign language, French, Spanish, German, or Latin, which took up anywhere from a whole semester to an entire year or more, and believe me, very few of us ever had any use for them. So a measly 6-8 hours hardly seems like too much time.

.

 

[ecco]

Are you dare suggesting we not learn in school about the KKK's reprehensible, disgusting, racist views? Should the kids learn about the KKK "on the street"?

And while we're at it, you WANT the indoctrination to continue from the evolutionists, with their disgusting views that different RACES of men exist, creating more hostilities! GROSS.

Didn't the bible talk about Nephilim? Aren't they classified as a different race

 

[Polymath257]

Are you dare suggesting we not learn in school about the KKK's reprehensible, disgusting, racist views? Should the kids learn about the KKK "on the street"?

And while we're at it, you WANT the indoctrination to continue from the evolutionists, with their disgusting views that different RACES of men exist, creating more hostilities! GROSS.

Sure, teach about them in a *sociology* class. But not in a *science* class. The same with creationism. Tell how the science deniers promote creationism using political means *in a sociology* class. Then go and teach the *science*, meaning evolution in the science class.