Science vs Faith

[Thief]

Close observation is the way to do it, aka mindfulness. It quickly becomes apparent that our experience is continually changing, and that it all arises in dependence on conditions.

so you have no lines drawn?
neither religious or scientific

 

[Rick O'Shez]

by this measure you are calling other peoples observations and experience Speculation ?

No, but I am making a distinction between direct observation and metaphysical beliefs, which ARE often speculative and unsubstantiated. I think it is more difficult to observe experience objectively through the lens of metaphysical beliefs, there is a tendency make experience fit preconceived notions, there is confirmation bias.

It is rather like a scientist altering experimental results to fit the theory he prefers. It is putting the cart before the horse.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

so you have no lines drawn?
neither religious or scientific

I try to keep an open mind.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Close observation is the way to do it, aka mindfulness. It quickly becomes apparent that our experience is continually changing, and that it all arises in dependence on conditions.

What precisely is it that is observing the mind's thoughts and feeling in mindfulness?

 

[ratikala]

Namaskaram

No, but I am making a distinction between direct observation and metaphysical beliefs, which ARE often speculative and unsubstantiated. I think it is more difficult to observe experience objectively through the lens of metaphysical beliefs, there is a tendency make experience fit preconceived notions, there is confirmation bias.

but surely metaphysical beleif is only based upon the observation and experience of others in the same way that scientific beleif is based on the observation and experementation of scientists , being sceptical about the nature of being because it has been revealed by another , is just the same as refuting Scientific thought unless the theory is proven before our very eyes , ...?

It is rather like a scientist altering experimental results to fit the theory he prefers. It is putting the cart before the horse.

this has inadvertantly happened many a time just by dint of wishfull thinking , Science wants to find an answer so it fitts together what peices it has at its disposal only for another scientist to come along at a later date to find another solution , ...
the fundamental nature of being is not answerable by analasis of matter , therefore surely we would be wise to accept both Science and Metaphysics as two distinctly different diciplines , as no matter how much Science analises matter it canot find the motivating force behind life nor its purpose , ....it can only go into the mecanical detail of its being , ...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

but surely metaphysical beleif is only based upon the observation and experience of others. ...

And that is the problem. There are many conflicting metaphysical beliefs, and they cannot all be correct.

I still don't think you have understood the distinction I am making between direct personal observation of experience, and the holding of religious and metaphysical beliefs.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

What precisely is it that is observing the mind's thoughts and feeling in mindfulness?

A quality of mind, I think. It is a question I am still exploring. Meanwhile I find mindfulness to be a fascinating and revealing practice.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

A quality of mind, I think.

Do you mean a subtle aspect of the mind is observing the thinking aspect of mind? As you think, watch...what is the watcher?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Do you mean a subtle aspect of the mind is observing the thinking aspect of mind? As you think, watch...what is the watcher?

I really don't know. Is there actually a "watcher", or is it more like a reflexive awareness, a quality of mind? I will let you know when I work it out.

Practically speaking it involves directing attention inwards as well as outwards, it is really just being more AWARE.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I really don't know. Is there actually a "watcher", or is it more like a reflexive awareness, a quality of mind? I will let you know when I work it out.

Practically speaking it involves directing attention inwards as well as outwards, it is really just being more AWARE.

Well observer' then if you do not like 'watcher'.. If we consider that outward attention involves an observer, then inward attention involves an observer of the observer...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Well observer' then if you do not like 'watcher'.. If we consider that outward attention involves an observer, then inward attention involves an observer of the observer...

I'm not sure. If feels more like an awareness that takes in both internal and external phenomena, and notices how they interact.

 

[`mud]

Where is this Nirvana that contains the Dharma of all sources ?
And when one finally arrives in some cognitive state,
what does one do then ?
~
Does one dissolve into the Dharma,
or 'watch' the forming of Nirvana itself.
~
We all will become 'watchers' then,
as everything passes by.
How sad is it; that we can't take cognition with us.
~
'mud

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Where is this Nirvana that contains the Dharma of all sources ?
And when one finally arrives in some cognitive state,
what does one do then ?

Have a nice cup of tea?

I'm more interested in the journey than the destination these days, it is fascinating to discover new horizons.

 

[`mud]

It all depends on one's age and the 'journey' that's been sampled,
I think we mostly know the result, that'll never change,
but one might find the right 'mix', good luck.
~
'mud

 

[Thief]

I try to keep an open mind.

well gee....an open mind and no lines drawn....

seems a contradiction

and as you have seen here at the forum....
post and counter posting.....draws lines

pitch your opinion....as if you are sure....
line drawn

 

[Rick O'Shez]

pitch your opinion....as if you are sure....
line drawn

Having opinions is not incompatible with trying to keep an open mind. Attaching to opinions is though.

 

[Thief]

Having opinions is not incompatible with trying to keep an open mind. Attaching to opinions is though.

so, in your opinion.....which do you prefer when making a decision?
science?
faith?

 

[whirlingmerc]

Scientist (of the secular humanist sort) can be as dogmatic as any religious folk

Often the new 'Occum Razer' is any explanation outside of God no matter how unlikely or counterintuitive must be the true one

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I'm not sure. If feels more like an awareness that takes in both internal and external phenomena, and notices how they interact.

It is....a oneness that is...awareness of the apparent duality of internal noumena and external phenomena...

 

[Thief]

It is....a oneness that is...awareness of the apparent duality of internal noumena and external phenomena...

so....do you rely on your gut feelings?
religious lean?
or the science you are able to understand?