Science

[Brian2]

So far supernatural equates to imaginary.

That is the presumption.

 

[F1fan]

In the meantime things that are supernatural get analysed as natural and falsely verified as natural.
An example might be our consciousness.

Consciousness is a function of material brains performing material processes.

Besides, consciousness is observed in many animals, so how exactly is it supposed to be supernatural?

An example of an area where most scientists would not be able or be game enough to claim supernatural, but which is evidence for the supernatural, is OBEs in NDEs. Scientists have the same biases against the supernatural or fear of being seen as heretical by other scientists, as religious leaders had against some scientific discoveries back in the day.
Near-Death Experiences Evidence for Their Reality

These are not considered supernatural experiences, they are experiences of brains dealing with trauma.

 

[Brian2]

Possibly supernatural? There is no known supernatural phenomenon known to exist.

Nothing known because everything is defined as natural.

 

[F1fan]

That is the presumption.

No, it's a fact that supernatural equates to imaginary. There is no known supernatural phenomenon. The supernatural claims made by various folks fall into the category of imaginary since they don't correspond to things known to exist.

 

[F1fan]

Nothing known because everything is defined as natural.

What?

 

[Brian2]

Consciousness is a function of material brains performing material processes.

That is just the presumption, and the fantastic explanation that has resulted from that presumption.
Of course these presumptions purport to show that even consciousness is just a by product of the material. But that is no more than circular reasoning,,,,,,,,,,,, which some people believe and others seem more than willing to jump onto as evidence for their disbelief without critical thinking about it.

Besides, consciousness is observed in many animals, so how exactly is it supposed to be supernatural?

Who says animals do not have a spirit?

These are not considered supernatural experiences, they are experiences of brains dealing with trauma.

Not all of them. You don't want to fall for all the materialistic rhetoric you hear.
Near-Death Experiences Evidence for Their Reality

 

[Brian2]

No, it's a fact that supernatural equates to imaginary. There is no known supernatural phenomenon. The supernatural claims made by various folks fall into the category of imaginary since they don't correspond to things known to exist.

All it means is that science has limits and are overstepping them imo.

 

[firedragon]

Does that mean that science only studies the natural world?
How is it known where to draw the line between the natural and supernatural world?

Yes Brian. Science as a practice will and can only study the natural world. Definitions of science has been argued over time with people like popper and Kuhn. But its all relating to the natural world. Nature. Empiricism. etc.

The supernatural world cannot enter this realm because by definition its supernatural. If someone claims a miracle that affects the natural world only then, science can analyse the "natural world" and what ever occurred.

 

[firedragon]

All it means is that science has limits and are overstepping them imo.

In all honesty, science does not overstep its limits. It works within its limits. Some people speak of science and mixes them both for fame and apologetics like some of the new age atheists. But that is not science as defined by philosophy of science.

 

[QuestioningMind]

In the meantime things that are supernatural get analysed as natural and falsely verified as natural.
An example might be our consciousness.
An example of an area where most scientists would not be able or be game enough to claim supernatural, but which is evidence for the supernatural, is OBEs in NDEs. Scientists have the same biases against the supernatural or fear of being seen as heretical by other scientists, as religious leaders had against some scientific discoveries back in the day.
Near-Death Experiences Evidence for Their Reality

Yes, there are some people who report having experiences when they are in what is considered a 'near-death' state. I don't think anyone denies that some people have these experiences. But I'm not sure how you classified such experiences as evidence of the supernatural or how you think they indicate that consciousness is in some way supernatural.

What is it that you think scientists should be studying, but are afraid to because they would be seen as heretical? What experiments do you think scientists could be conducting to prove the supernatural exists that they aren't doing because they're afraid? If a scientist can find a scientifically sound way of testing a claim they'll do it and publish their results, regardless of what the establishment might think.

 

[Brian2]

Yes Brian. Science as a practice will and can only study the natural world. Definitions of science has been argued over time with people like popper and Kuhn. But its all relating to the natural world. Nature. Empiricism. etc.

The supernatural world cannot enter this realm because by definition its supernatural. If someone claims a miracle that affects the natural world only then, science can analyse the "natural world" and what ever occurred.

And these days atheist are saying that because science can find something happening in the natural world, the supernatural does not exist. And of course if there is an incident and science found nothing in the natural world to examine, that would mean that the incident did not happen or that it happened and science just does not know how at the moment.
No evidence for the supernatural gets into science as evidence for the supernatural.

 

[Brian2]

In all honesty, science does not overstep its limits. It works within its limits. Some people speak of science and mixes them both for fame and apologetics like some of the new age atheists. But that is not science as defined by philosophy of science.

I get a bad name for attacking science when it is the new age atheists who are to blame and of course want to make believers into anti science people. And of course it does not help that some are anti science.
I have found that it is almost a necessity to be against some things that come out of science, because these days science is stepping into theological areas and cannot help but presume and define supernatural things as natural.

 

[firedragon]

And these days atheist are saying that because science can find something happening in the natural world, the supernatural does not exist.

True. Thats an absurd argument done by some hard atheists. Its a burden of proof fallacy.

And of course if there is an incident and science found nothing in the natural world to examine, that would mean that the incident did not happen or that it happened and science just does not know how at the moment.

Thats exactly how science works. Unless of course its an elimination process in nature. For example, a doctor would do a test, not find any trace of what he was looking for, and say "you dont have this problem". It could be anything, like COVID 19 virus. But for that they have the exact test to investigate it. Science does not have anything to test the metaphysical. So claiming "I cant test it. I dont have this or that. Thus it does not exist" is a fallacy. To eliminate something as "it does not exist" one must have the exact testing developed by science itself to do that. No one does.

 

[firedragon]

I get a bad name for attacking science when it is the new age atheists who are to blame and of course want to make believers into anti science people. And of course it does not help that some are anti science.
I have found that it is almost a necessity to be against some things that come out of science, because these days science is stepping into theological areas and cannot help but presume and define supernatural things as natural.

Ill give you an example.

Atheists who are very highly acclaimed scientists say that this so called new atheist movement, with prophets and Gods like Dawkins who is called an embarrassment is absurd.

 

[rational experiences]

If all the same type of human behaviours believes human science is the answer. Then try not being a human and be sympathetic to atmospheric changed bio life attacked.

Of your owned human life mind body owned only by human sex.

Knowing all human consciousness exists about 100 years in a future of a newly born baby.

Both conscious human positions reviewed.

If a law said all humans stop having human sex. We would age and die. No human in any planets future.

Exact natural human thinking first.

Everyone a natural human thinker first.

Who doesn't by human behaviour demonstrate the want of non group acceptance. Who want to think just as their self yet don't.

Theism. The human. I want to pretend I know how a living ape had sex to own a human type baby.

You forget that sex is involved everytime.

So again you pretend as the ape parents two were having sex to get one the cell body that changed. Apes first.

All words a thesis theory meaning you used words to explain your human belief. Then using science machines only human invented is your next position. More powerful human is exacted.

Just as the human.

You give yourself an extended human ego by machine use.

Some humans claim I'm looking for the substance in the heavens that caused the apes baby to change.

Ape its highest health position. Ape baby its highest health position.

Is a dangerous human pursuit.

As science is by practice only a human choice.

Created creation always had existed in all of its natural forms an old teaching said....

A human who Idealised removal of natural form by human forced intent was termed a criminal self destructive type of thinker.

So we were taught a human brain entrainment of peaceful meditative life communing with nature. Owning human choice to cause as little change as possible.

As we lived through two preceding human science technology ages that destroyed civilisation.

Was an exact human owned teaching.

You want to know by ego what your mind human says you can't know or would ever know.

That human condition was defined as the destroyer mind of a human.

 

[Brian2]

Yes, there are some people who report having experiences when they are in what is considered a 'near-death' state. I don't think anyone denies that some people have these experiences. But I'm not sure how you classified such experiences as evidence of the supernatural or how you think they indicate that consciousness is in some way supernatural.

What is it that you think scientists should be studying, but are afraid to because they would be seen as heretical? What experiments do you think scientists could be conducting to prove the supernatural exists that they aren't doing because they're afraid? If a scientist can find a scientifically sound way of testing a claim they'll do it and publish their results, regardless of what the establishment might think.

If OBEs are real they show consciousness outside the human body, no physical media for consciousness to be in. To me that certainly goes beyond the boundaries of what science can explain these days. To me also it is evidence for the supernatural,,,,,,,,,,,, spirit.
I don't know what experiments could be done to show it shows spirit.
I would suggest that when the spiritual was not disallowed in science, these OBEs would automatically be seen as showing evidence for the spirit and the supernatural.
Now the existence of the supernatural and spiritual has to be proven before evidence for the supernatural can be proposed.
Then people say "No evidence for the supernatural so it does not exist".
Most atheists come at it from a different angle and all I'm saying goes over their head of course.
That said, I don't know how science would study spirit. It is undetectable even if it's effects can be seen.
Logically imo it is known to exist from my pov and the inability for science to study it does not mean it is not real but that science oversteps it's boundaries at times by presuming the supernatural is not real, and then defining supernatural things as natural.

 

[rational experiences]

In the meantime things that are supernatural get analysed as natural and falsely verified as natural.
An example might be our consciousness.
An example of an area where most scientists would not be able or be game enough to claim supernatural, but which is evidence for the supernatural, is OBEs in NDEs. Scientists have the same biases against the supernatural or fear of being seen as heretical by other scientists, as religious leaders had against some scientific discoveries back in the day.
Near-Death Experiences Evidence for Their Reality

A whole healthy human however overlooks the experience equal human to equal human so its is not yours.

It's a human living changing having the experience.

What using a human ego does in your chosen pursuit of I want to know everything.

One self scientist group says I play around with non bio chemicals. I reckon in a whole human life living and decomposed or dying from cellular sickness yet still living.... look a type of cell like medical studies own. A biology.

Life he said began. Yet it hadn't as he messed around using waters modern day microbiology evolution in it. Lied.

Most of it destroyed in his thesis attack.

Then another human wanting AI particle to be conscious for new technology and a huge monetary lifestyle gain said I believe and said humans began there. Not some sick destroyed water microbe.

Is who destroys life. As a man his sick little sperm body is most likely talking to him.

 

[Brian2]

Ill give you an example.

Atheists who are very highly acclaimed scientists say that this so called new atheist movement, with prophets and Gods like Dawkins who is called an embarrassment is absurd.

All I know is that atheists these days seem more likely to say that God has been shown to be a fantasy.
Shown by what? The science that analyses everything with the presumption that the supernatural is not real and that with circular reasoning ends up with conclusions that say that what was considered supernatural in the past is actually natural.
This has not been helped by God of the gaps ideas of the past and now at the edges of science believers are still seen as using superstition when we say that life is spiritual etc.
Believers have lost the fight against the sly lies of the adversary. But all deceptions are allowed by God to exist alongside the truth.

 

[ChristineM]

Shown by what?

100% lack of evidence

The science that analyses everything with the presumption that the supernatural is not real and that with circular reasoning ends up with conclusions that say that what was considered supernatural in the past is actually natural.

What?

Believers have lost the fight against the sly lies of the adversary.

Evidence or its lack are not lies not is calling what you don't like "sly" a recipe for peace

 

[rational experiences]

If you quote my life human conscious memory...my mother human father human memories was created by the eternal God.

The story human owned says.....

Eternal always existed.

It is spiritual unconditional so no human explanation at all.

Yet humans want to explain versus self destructive God earth technology attacks. Rich lying group human civilisation history. Incorrect purpose.

So we tried for spiritual reasons only to teach why we are spiritual for self survival.

As what we owned as higher beings we were removed from then Inherited the eternal hell gods presence.

So we detailed as best we could non science word use.

Oearth.
Heavens immaculate history hot dense heavens to thin heavens.

Owned no life.

Sun attacked human science notice blasting big bang.

Alight atmosphere.

Stretch contracted into a cold density.

In that moment the eternal which is only just on the other side of the space plane was pushed against.

Ooooothe vibrational return into the eternal.

Spirit pre owned living bodies by its term left. As eternal loving beings. Where we came from.

How else did water as a mass as water be incorporated and trapped inside of a human life?

It proves that created creation had been released out of the same body once. By how we Inherited the changed eternal form of water.

Phenomena as dense released heated mass into a cooling body reproduces spirit types. Which proved to humans that we had been in a pre form history.

Released human like by image only but mostly nothing like us by hu man causes human mind controlled machine designs.

So we quantified it as anti not of stones spirit gases.

As water cools with ice all reactive gas changes.

As we live nearly as water. Are safe due to water it's obvious we weren't phenomena.

Humans who accept the teaching of being spiritual own no explanation to any scientist. Known and inferred consciously.

As science thesis begins with fused mass on earth. Is exact science of a human practice chosen.