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Science

rational experiences

Veteran Member
I'm not aware of any subjects in Western medical brain exploration and experiments in at least the last thirty years who were not volunteers.

Please give me a link to any that you know about.
Maybe mind contact mind controlled psychics visited by circumstance the brain mind humans who caused it. A circuit back to its human creator designer.

A laboratory study then became a chosen transmitted computer satellite study. Contact. Why you said I want the contacts...so I hope you personally get what you personally ask for.

Why humans began claiming others were speaking as bots on forums as it's known.

When a very small hu man group only displayed that ability.... to an AI believer as the inventor human controlled by human mind the machine status of course you decided to give it to everyone yourself.

As invention is only chosen by human scientists.

So then advised a new human conscious theory proves you believe a human mind should by mind contact now control machines.

As you are already doing it.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
All it means is that science has limits and are overstepping them imo.
Science does have limits. I have not seen anything presented that would constitute evidence to support your claim that the supernatural is mistakenly considered natural.

First, you would have to have something supernatural that is observed. Then you would have to show that it acts through non-natural mechanisms and not natural mechanisms. Then you would have to show how non-natural mechanisms and phenomena are not really just natural.

The Venus de Milo coming to life with real flesh and human physiology would qualify as supernatural I think. Have you seen anything like that? Can you propose a way for that to be shown to be supernatural and not the result of some previously unobserved natural law? I don't know the origin of every person on Earth. I didn't see every one of them come into this world. Maybe a few of them used to be statues.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
And yet I don't need any supernatural powers, to prophesy that this thread will attract the faithful acolytes of "scientism", making fantastic claims on it's behalf.
I do not know of anyone practicing scientism that posts on this forum. Supporting, understanding and practicing science do not qualify as scientism.

What fantastic claims are being bandied about in your opinion?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
If it exists in the natural world, acts in the natural world and can be observed using methods reliant on natural laws, it probably is natural.

What is supernatural that can be observed in the natural world so that we can establish a baseline?
Science owning design building machination workings human mind controlled physically by biological human choice. Knows earth is the base of mass that human science uses as transmitting control.

Their science machines.

The idea of a manifested human hologram. Seen at ground state. As the occult science does exist.

The idea I want it held fixed by invention so I can use it as new technology AI status...yet it cools disappears as a super state is a humans scientist owned cause.

If base line holograms disappear but you want it to remain fixed for technology are you going to control the space vacuum and tell it what to do brother?

Is the human reason my human theoried as human science owns controls everything by science terms maths. Is a human belief maths science the supernatural.

As it never existed first. Human natural life did. And humans invented then built a non active science until they reacted the reactions not yet reacting.

The only human sciences not yet reacting is nuclear dust fission controlled by human controlled science machines.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I get a bad name for attacking science when it is the new age atheists who are to blame and of course want to make believers into anti science people.
What is a "new age atheist"? I've never heard of such a thing. New Age is understood a type of modern experimental religion, with crystals and chakras, pyramids, and whatnot. Not exactly sure how you consider atheism connected with that?

I have found that it is almost a necessity to be against some things that come out of science, because these days science is stepping into theological areas and cannot help but presume and define supernatural things as natural.
Where is science stepping into theological areas? Valid science doesn't make pronouncements about things that it cannot study. If you mean folks like Richard Dawkins? That's not science. That just his expression of his religious beliefs. That's not science view. It's his religious view based upon his philosophical materialism.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Scientists can study anything supernatural that interacts with the natural world, which leaves very little that cannot be studied. Even thoughts, feelings, and consciousness, historically regarded as abstract and not natural, can now be understood by examining the brain. Amputees can move prosthetics with their mind, consciousness and mood can be altered with medication, etc.

Let's say that something outside the natural world communicated with you, like an angel giving you divine instructions. If it was coming from outside your body, it would be detectable. If it's not detectable, than it's imaginary/ your own thoughts.

Concerning near death experiences and out-of-body experiences proving heaven exists for example, ask yourself which is more likely?
- Some ill-defined metaphysical substance, not subject to the known laws of physics, interacts with atoms of our brains in ways that have thus far eluded every controlled experiment ever performed in the history of science;
Or
- People hallucinate when they are nearly dead.
Have thoughts, feelings and consciousness been seen as not natural historically? Could you elaborate on that thought? I curious and open to know what you mean.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
The presumption of natural and materialistic is part of the methodology of science, I am told.
It is an underlying assumption of science. If it were not, then every scientists could just claim what they want to believe is the explanation and knowledge and understanding would go no where.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Any human believer of I want to study the brain consciousness using machines by the way ought to only be allowed to experiment on their own brain by their own organised brothers agreement.
So no fMRI scans to detect brain cancer?

Or do you mean instruments ONLY to study consciousness? Wouldn't any instrument examining brains of living people, especially those who are awake, violate your prohibition on the mere chance that something could be discovered about consciousness?

Instead they do it to human victims as they personally as a self belief are so human important.
So people of sound mind don't have the authority to authorize their own bodies to be subjects to tests?

Machines in out of space.
The rise and fall of Skylab.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Maybe mind contact mind controlled psychics visited by circumstance the brain mind humans who caused it. A circuit back to its human creator designer.

A laboratory study then became a chosen transmitted computer satellite study. Contact. Why you said I want the contacts...so I hope you personally get what you personally ask for.

Why humans began claiming others were speaking as bots on forums as it's known.

When a very small hu man group only displayed that ability.... to an AI believer as the inventor human controlled by human mind the machine status of course you decided to give it to everyone yourself.

As invention is only chosen by human scientists.

So then advised a new human conscious theory proves you believe a human mind should by mind contact now control machines.

As you are already doing it.
So you have no evidence for what you say? Okay, that's clear. Thank you.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
So no fMRI scans to detect brain cancer?

Or do you mean instruments ONLY to study consciousness? Wouldn't any instrument examining brains of living people, especially those who are awake, violate your prohibition on the mere chance that something could be discovered about consciousness?


So people of sound mind don't have the authority to authorize their own bodies to be subjects to tests?


The rise and fall of Skylab.
As I own physical biological evidence. Life bio harmed. Yes I do.

Science modern thesis as told by father said our science theist brother wanted jesus a thesis but also changed to a new modern collider theme.

Electricity ground base Jesus human hologram converted into electricity as just a humans thesis.

Not reality. As supernatural phenomena is already a cause of humans sciences machines.

As gases in clouds above as Jesus owned man's image. Ground owned crop circles only as destroyed image of man.

I saw life being destroyed not created. Which you ignore for your own human greed.

Jesus as a human science statement ground gas changes was first spirit human image life destroyed.

New thesis to be stopped as hologram cause was by past circumstance wanted to be controlled now. Isn't in any human present life.

Equals. The earthquake not stopping as Jesus... earth dark no light held in vacuum...as jesus as before channel opened and huge lightning strikes occurred. The mass energy of an earth mass gas thesis maths only calculus. By men in science I want.

The answer was mass.

Held opened not ended as your idea time shift to a Jesus human caused real past in science only terms....I'll force change Jesus on earth myself by my new machine status.

By not letting the past own holographic ground mass machine signals cooling. Where all machine parts begin.

Father hence warned me many times modern human greed wants to destroy their owned used holographic technologies of transmitters.

Wasnt lying.

If science says why shouldn't they study the brain of biology science says itself why it shouldn't knowing human sciences real intent that is not shared with the public.

Is why.

Hence you allowed my life to be brother scientist informed by your use human controlled mind contact coercion program.

So I'm not lying.

Everyday operatives ask my life from my bio attack to tell them scientific data advice.

Life isn't maths science God earth mass.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Just so we are all on the same page :) excerpts from Wikipedia.


Definition: The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

3 Disciplines Modern Science:
- Natural sciences (e.g., biology, chemistry, and physics), which study nature in the broadest sense;
- Social sciences (e.g., economics, psychology, and sociology), which study individuals and societies; and
- Formal sciences (e.g., logic, mathematics, and theoretical computer science), which deal with symbols governed by rules


The Scientific Method:
- Empirical method of acquiring knowledge that has characterized the development of science;
- Careful observation, applying rigorous skepticism about what is observed (given that cognitive assumptions can distort how one interprets the observation); and
- Formulating hypotheses, via induction, based on such observations; experimental and measurement-based testing of deductions drawn from the hypotheses; and refinement (or elimination) of the hypotheses based on the experimental findings.

Practical Impacts:
View attachment 61656

Social sciences are inexact. Economics, sometimes, does things that theory doesn't predict. If economics was predictable, many would make a fortune on the stock market.

Religion is less true than science.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
As I own physical biological evidence. Life bio harmed. Yes I do.

Science modern thesis as told by father said our science theist brother wanted jesus a thesis but also changed to a new modern collider theme.

Electricity ground base Jesus human hologram converted into electricity as just a humans thesis.

Not reality. As supernatural phenomena is already a cause of humans sciences machines.

As gases in clouds above as Jesus owned man's image. Ground owned crop circles only as destroyed image of man.

I saw life being destroyed not created. Which you ignore for your own human greed.

Jesus as a human science statement ground gas changes was first spirit human image life destroyed.

New thesis to be stopped as hologram cause was by past circumstance wanted to be controlled now. Isn't in any human present life.

Equals. The earthquake not stopping as Jesus... earth dark no light held in vacuum...as jesus as before channel opened and huge lightning strikes occurred. The mass energy of an earth mass gas thesis maths only calculus. By men in science I want.

The answer was mass.

Held opened not ended as your idea time shift to a Jesus human caused real past in science only terms....I'll force change Jesus on earth myself by my new machine status.

By not letting the past own holographic ground mass machine signals cooling. Where all machine parts begin.

Father hence warned me many times modern human greed wants to destroy their owned used holographic technologies of transmitters.

Wasnt lying.

If science says why shouldn't they study the brain of biology science says itself why it shouldn't knowing human sciences real intent that is not shared with the public.

Is why.

Hence you allowed my life to be brother scientist informed by your use human controlled mind contact coercion program.

So I'm not lying.

Everyday operatives ask my life from my bio attack to tell them scientific data advice.

Life isn't maths science God earth mass.

I don't understand everything that you wrote.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
That is the presumption.

RE: "Supernatural equates to imaginary"

Dr. Jessica Utts (currently a professor at UC Irvine, and former chairwoman of her department) did study ESP and concluded that it was real. She had been a professor of statistics, in the Department of Mathematics, at the University of California, Davis.

Without research, using presumptions only, you cannot conclude anything about ESP.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Sorry, but OBE's have not been verified under scientifically controlled conditions. In one of the studies that were done subjects who claimed to be able to induce OBE's at will were asked to lie down in a a bed in a room rise up out of their body to the ceiling and afterwards describe what they saw as they looked down. In the room was a tall filing cabinet the top of which could not be seen by the subject lying in the bed. On the top of the filing cabinet facing up towards the ceiling was a large image of the Peanut's character Snoopy. Not a single one of the subjects involved mentioned seeing the unavoidable image, suggesting that even though all the subjects claimed to have been looking down from above, none of then actually had been.

That said, I don't know how science would study spirit. It is undetectable even if it's effects can be seen.

That's the whole point. Scientists don't know how to study things that can't be verified to exist either. You seem to be frustrated with science for failing to study something that you agree can't be studied. And science cannot advance if it ever assumes that something they can't yet explain is supernatural. If that were the case no one would have bothered to develop Germ Theory, since everyone would have just assumed that illness was caused by something supernatural like evil spirits.


I presume that an OBE is an "Out of Body Experience" (such as astral projection). However, OBEs could mean other things:

OBES

Oxford Bulletin of Economics and Statistics

Office of Basic Energy Sciences

Organization o9f Black Episcopal Seminarians

Oakland Builders Education Seminars (Canton, Michigan)

Orthonormal Basis of an Error Space

Ohio Baptist Education Society (Granville, Ohio)...world is flat????

Before I research your post, I'd like the term to be defined.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Well I don't have to undertake an empirical analysis of all available quantified data before making the simplest of decisions, if that's what you're asking. If I did that, I'd never get out of bed. And I'd never have learned how to walk, talk, or ride a bike.

To save time, I can calculate the distance to a wall while I'm walking, and I don't even need a calculator....just a slide rule.....ouch (bumped into a wall while talking and calculating).
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
I was not the one who names things. "Natural" "supernatural" were both words before I was born. You can the supernatural as natural if you like, that is what science does at times. I go further than what science says because I'm human and go beyond empiricism in my search for the truth. Science I guess cannot do that, it is limited even if some atheists seem to think otherwise.

Isn't it amazing that someone went back in time, knowing that we were going to have this conversation now, and having the foresight to name these things ("natural" and "supernatural") years ago?

Not all atheists love science. Not all scientists are atheists. In fact, many of my friends are theists and scientists. I was just with my physics professor friend a couple of weeks ago.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
The Templeton foundation has nothing to do with atheism, your paranoia is simply leaping to false assumptions. Sir John Templeton was a member of the Presbyterian Church, dedicated to his faith, and the John Templeton Foundation was set up to give rewards and grants for the furtherment of his religious beliefs. Your bias is relentlessly made manifest in these atheist conspiracies you keep imagining.



You did, and I asked you what is supernatural about the process of dying?



No it is not remotely "obvious", if it were then those desperate to prove this would be able to demonstrate something beyond mere anecdote, and they have not. The rest of that is a no true Scotsman fallacy if ever there was one.



Any credible scientist submitting anything containing bias would be leaped on by other scientists during the scrutiny of peer review, as I said it would damage their reputation irreparably. Any scientist actually evidencing anything supernatural would be the most lauded and famous scientist ever, why would they not want that? You are simply using biased paranoia about science to rationalise the fact it doesn't evidence your beliefs.



Based on what, your innate bias? You're not remotely qualified to peer review the work of scientists, judging from your posts you haven't even the most basic grasp of its methods.



You need to learn a very little about the methods of science, and stop imaging what they are, based on your prejudice against them not evidencing, or contradicting aspects of, your religious beliefs. As long as you are this biased against science and its methods, then of course you will arrive at these false conclusions.

Sheldon said: "Any credible scientist submitting anything containing bias would be leaped on by other scientists during the scrutiny of peer review, as I said it would damage their reputation irreparably."

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=neil+degrasse+tyson+virtual+world

Clara Tea's opinion:

Dr. Neil Degrasse Tyson thinks that we might be in a virtual world (like the Matrix movie). Please see the Google search above for more information. If Dr. Tyson is unbiased, does that mean that we are in a virtual world? Did he use science to conclude this? Evidence? Religion?

Sheldon said:

"Any scientist actually evidencing anything supernatural would be the most lauded and famous scientist ever"

Clara Tea's opinion:

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=jessica+utts+esp

Dr. Jessica Utts, currently at UC Irvine, was the professor of statistics (Department of Mathematics, UC Davis) who was chosen to work with the SRI (Stanford Research Institute, a group from Stanford University, Palo Alto, California), then by SAIC (Science Applications International Corporation) in Project Stargate, funded by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA).

The DIA, at the time, was the largest covert government agency at the time, until President George W. Bush unified all of them under his father's organization, the Central Intelligence Agency. W. Bush, like his father and grandfather (Prescott Bush) were members of the Skull and Bones Satanic cult at Yale University, which had its own bible, and they practiced spells, incantations, and Prescott stole the skeleton of the Native American Geronimo, to perform Satanic rituals). George Bush (senior) and W. Bush both funded supernatural research.

SAIC was run by retired generals who helped with the Iran-Contra scandal, supporting the Contra dictator, Somosa, and shooting at Sandinistas who opposed the Contra dictator to get educations for their kids and survivable wages. The generals who ran SAIC were paid billions of dollars in profits, as money was channeled by the Bush administrations to their pockets. The Bush presidents used nepotism and cronyism to line their pockets and pay off their friends (such as Haliburton (an oil drilling apparatus company) doing soldier's laundry and supplying them with water (brown sticking water that makes them sick for a high price, and pure water for a much higher price)).

Professor Utts (highly respected statistician) used statistical analysis to prove that supernatural things (like ESP) were real.

Some psychics, like David Moorehouse (who wrote a book about killing goats by staring at them in CIA experiments), were abused by the CIA.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=skull+and+bones+satanic

The website, above, provides more information about the Skull and Bones Satanic cult of Yale University.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
I do not know of anyone practicing scientism that posts on this forum. Supporting, understanding and practicing science do not qualify as scientism.

What fantastic claims are being bandied about in your opinion?

Let me first point out, that I am in no way anti-science. Nor do I take issue with the scientific consensus on issues like evolution or climate change - I’m not an American, and I’m not a conspiracy theorist, so you can leave me out of debates that were settled long ago. This being the case, I chose the word scientism, as opposed to science, deliberately. Do I have to offer a definition? I don’t think I do - it’s been done elsewhere on this forum fairly recently.

So to answer your other question, here are some fantastic - or at least unreasonable - claims sometimes made on behalf of science, by those who view it with an unquestioning devotion;

The claim that life can be understood in it’s fullness by scientific methods alone.
The claim that any and all aspects of reality can be calibrated, quantified and understood by man.
The claim that science can tell us not only - perhaps - how we came to be alive, but also how we should live.
The claim that anything which cannot be proven to exist by scientific methods, can be reasonably dismissed.
 
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RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
If I could further your point here (if I understand it) I would say: Science is not dogmatic. People are dogmatic. Some scientists are dogmatic in their practice. Dogmatic scientists are devotees of 'scientism'.


If dogmatism can be characterised at least in part by absence of doubt, then certainly;

There is a story, told by Carlo Rovelli, concerning Niels Bohr’s last blackboard, on which was a drawing of an Einstein thought experiment. Just before he died, Bohr was re-examining an old argument he’d had with Einstein, an argument the scientific community had generally declared to have long been settled in Bohr’s favour. Rovelli makes the point thus; “To the very last, the desire to challenge himself and understand more. And to the very last: doubt.”

Without doubt, we are sure to be lost. Without doubt, we are asking to be misled by our certainties.
 
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