Scientific Evidence and Gender, Sex, and Transsexuality

[CogentPhilosopher]

This was formed from a derailing conversation I was having with @Alison Wonderland on another thread. But anyone is welcome to join in.

Does science have evidence about the issues of gender, sex, and transsexuality?

If it does what do they have to say?

 

[columbus]

That's a huge question. Anything more specific you're interested in?
There are mountains of studies.
Tom

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

That's a huge question. Anything more specific you're interested in?
There are mountains of studies.
Tom

Really I intend this to be more open so we can freely discuss and debate without derailing the thread.

 

[columbus]

Were you two talking about something in particular?
Tom

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

Were you two talking about something in particular?
Tom

I claimed that gender=/=sex and she said "wrong".

When I asked her about it she started making claims about psychology and biology and such, but we where on another thread and we where derailing it pretty hard so I asked her to come here. Though given how she acted when I suggested the idea I am having the growing suspicion that she will not come.

It's possible she just wanted to do a hit and run argument not a full on debate.

 

[Skwim]

I think the article on "sex" and "gender" in Wikipedia put it fairly well (There's a lot more to the article than what I've quoted here.)

"The distinction between sex and gender differentiates sex (the anatomy of an individual's reproductive system, and secondary sex characteristics) from gender, which can refer to either social roles based on the sex of the person (gender role) or personal identification of one's own gender based on an internal awareness (gender identity)
The sex and gender distinction is not universal. In ordinary speech, sex and gender are often used interchangeably. Some dictionaries and academic disciplines give them different definitions while others do not.

A working definition in use by the World Health Organization for its work is that "'[g]ender' refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women" and that "'masculine' and 'feminine' are gender categories.

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) . . . In 2011,. . . began using sex as the biological classification and gender as "a person's self representation as male or female, or how that person is responded to by social institutions based on the individual's gender presentation."

.​

 

[Alison Wonderland]

I claimed that gender=/=sex and she said "wrong".

When I asked her about it she started making claims about psychology and biology and such, but we where on another thread and we where derailing it pretty hard so I asked her to come here. Though given how she acted when I suggested the idea I am having the growing suspicion that she will not come.

It's possible she just wanted to do a hit and run argument not a full on debate.

No, you mixed yourself up by mistaking sex for gender. See your post.

I figured correcting you warranted nothing more than a five letter word.

You blew it out of proportion and resurrected a topic that has been done to death on this forum.

Otherwise, your thread's going great

 

[oldbadger]

I figured correcting you warranted nothing more than a five letter word..................
..........................

I immediately thought of an eight letter word......

When I see the word 'gender' I think of how each person can fit into (or survive) in a group or culture.

When I see the word 'sex' I think of how each person indentifies with their own sexuality.

That's different. But because these two words are used interchangeably we've mostly become accustomed to instantly translating them into every differing communication.

And then, of course, there's folks who are Asexual and others who feel Genderless or Genderfree....... not the same meanings at all.

 

[godnotgod]

This was formed from a derailing conversation I was having with @Alison Wonderland on another thread. But anyone is welcome to join in.

Does science have evidence about the issues of gender, sex, and transsexuality?

If it does what do they have to say?

I read a very interesting study done years ago in which lab mice were subjected to poor conditions, such as overcrowding, poor lighting, poor quality/quantity of food, little or no exercise, and poor hygiene. The control group was subjected to exactly the opposite conditions. The study group converted to 100% homosexuality, while the control group remained heterosexual. I wonder how much of this, if any, but especially the overcrowding factor, is applicable to homosexuality in human society.

 

[Alison Wonderland]

I read a very interesting study done years ago in which lab mice were subjected to poor conditions, such as overcrowding, poor lighting, poor quality/quantity of food, little or no exercise, and poor hygiene. The control group was subjected to exactly the opposite conditions. The study group converted to 100% homosexuality, while the control group remained heterosexual. I wonder how much of this, if any, but especially the overcrowding factor, is applicable to homosexuality in human society.

The American prison system?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Bachelors of Arts have a bad rep - so maybe I should go easy on this 20 year old who is headed down a painful dead end.

Good luck with your customer service jobs and pile of female rejections when you starting approaching 30. Maybe remind them of your philosophy degree.

LOL

I spent years after my initial period in purely academic research as a consult in private and academic research, and one of the most disappointing, depressing aspect of my initial academic research, my years as a research consultant, and my return to academia was and has been the ignorant, unfortunate disdain in various fields for philosophical studies/fields. The whole of the intellectual/academic tradition is rooted in philosophy, as is basically all learning (not to mention basic logic). Disdain for this is disdain for learning, logic, and reason. Perhaps it is true that those who obtain a B.A. are doomed to a painful end career-wise, but this says nothing of the degree and everything of the corporate market. It also says nothing of the ability an individual has with such a background to comment intelligently upon issues such as those raised in the OP.

 

[oldbadger]

I don't entirely disagree with this; ....

Wot?! Somebody somewhere actually agreed with some part of one of my posts? I'm in heaven!

......in fact, I have a nihilistic aspect to my approach to the world so I don't really care.

I think you do....! If you didn't really care then you wouldn't be bothering to be here, or anywhere!

This 20 year old "philosophy student" is just low hanging fruit. I couldn't help myself.

Ahhhh.... See? You did care...... probably wanted to tell him somethin' or other....

In some ways, I envy him; college was a lot of fun for me - especially because I didn't resign myself to internet forums and call myself a "cogent philosopher".

We'll just have to let this little bud blossom into a disillusioned may-or-may-not-have-abandoned-his-useless-philosophy degree and figure out how the real world works.

Look, if folks didn't get philosophy and/or psychology degrees etc then we wouldn't have the joy, the unfettered
luxury of listening avidly to their wisdom.

I still grapple with forms of philosophy now that I've been gainfully employed for 7 years.

Bachelors of Arts have a bad rep - so maybe I should go easy on this 20 year old who is headed down a painful dead end.

...... you don't know..... he might say something wonderful to some amazed person during a bus ride, or whatever, and they will wander off into the sunset, holding hands and staring into each other's eyes, with the odd glance at the ground so as not to fall base over apex.

Good luck with your customer service jobs and pile of female rejections when you starting approaching 30. Maybe remind them of your philosophy degree.
LOL

Who...... Me? Oh!.... you mean ...... Him?!
Ah, well, I'll tell you something...... if he gets to my age and looks back, and sees a background as chaotic and stupid as mine has been, then, yes, he will know that he was a numpty, but I doubt he;'s as daft at this time as I was, back in the day..

I see that you're a singer, or a performer..... is that right?

 

[SabahTheLoner]

This was formed from a derailing conversation I was having with @Alison Wonderland on another thread. But anyone is welcome to join in.

Does science have evidence about the issues of gender, sex, and transsexuality?

If it does what do they have to say?

I don't know if anyone has done extensive work on transsexuality however many people have noticed that children at a young age who grow up to come out as trans will feel a disconnect to their assigned sex for as long as they can remember. There are probably some psychology studies on this but I don't know of anywhere I can point you to.

Just to be clear, gender and assigned sex are not the same thing. Gender is an expression and sex is based the physical characteristics of the body. I always say "gender is a social construct" because it was originally based off sex and the physical differences commonly seen in those who are physically male and physically female. Since men tended to have more muscular force (therefore could do heavier labor with less effort) while females could care for young more effectively (since they are built to lactate), agricultural societies separated them in this way and eventually created the concept of gender, without the acknowledgement that both sexes could do the other's "gender role".

 

[Polymath257]

I spent years after my initial period in purely academic research as a consult in private and academic research, and one of the most disappointing, depressing aspect of my initial academic research, my years as a research consultant, and my return to academia was and has been the ignorant, unfortunate disdain in various fields for philosophical studies/fields. The whole of the intellectual/academic tradition is rooted in philosophy, as is basically all learning (not to mention basic logic). Disdain for this is disdain for learning, logic, and reason. Perhaps it is true that those who obtain a B.A. are doomed to a painful end career-wise, but this says nothing of the degree and everything of the corporate market. It also says nothing of the ability an individual has with such a background to comment intelligently upon issues such as those raised in the OP.

I would feel considerably better about philosophical studies if they weren't still fixated on the ideas of Aristotle and Plato. I would feel better if they didn't default to a Bohmian interpretation of quantum mechanics because of its 'realist' aspect rather than an interpretation that can be extended to quantum field theories simply. I would feel better if they didn't focus on the 'hard problem of consciousness' in a way that is *clearly* at odds with the actual evidence. I would feel better if they didn't get caught up in trivialities like the issue of 'grue' in their attempts to understand the scientific method.

I do think that philosophy *could* be a useful and important area of study, but as it is done *today*, it is so caught up with outdated ideologies that it cannot do the real work it needs to be doing.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Good luck with your customer service jobs and pile of female rejections when you starting approaching 30.

You know, this is really an old... not insult, but criticism? I can't think of an apt word for it. However my point is that I know someone who has a Masters Degree in Emergency Response (something that is always in demand) and yet is still having to work as wait service for Waffle House. And they're married.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

For the vast majority of people, they are pretty much one and the same. However, there are people for whom they are not, for a number of reasons, physiological and psychological, so it seems useful to have such a categorical distinction for those cases.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

No, you mixed yourself up by mistaking sex for gender. See your post.

I figured correcting you warranted nothing more than a five letter word.

You blew it out of proportion and resurrected a topic that has been done to death on this forum.

Otherwise, your thread's going great

I do not see how I did so.

Your are born with a sex which is your physical characteristics of your body sans the brain and your gender which is the characteristics of the brain.

In the vast majority of people your sex and gender are the same. But for a small minority their gender and sex are not the same. Due to this they have large amounts of gender disphoria and depression if not treated.

Since trying to force the mind to change gender has been shown to be torturous and ineffective, changing the body to be the sex that corresponds with the gender in the brain is what is considered to be the best course of action.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

20 years old.

Self proclaimed "philosophy student" looking for arguments veiled under the cloth of a retarded "debate".

1st world tragedy.

Get laid dude (CogentPhilosopher).

I value knowledge and debate while you like to have sex and someone that's supposed to be insulting me?

I only plan to have sex, date, or have kids after I get my degree.

I was raised by a single 20 year old mom and I don't want another kid to have that childhood.

If you are just here to throw around insults, I would like you to please leave.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

I always say "gender is a social construct" because it was originally based off sex and the physical differences commonly seen in those who are physically male and physically female. Since men tended to have more muscular force (therefore could do heavier labor with less effort) while females could care for young more effectively (since they are built to lactate), agricultural societies separated them in this way and eventually created the concept of gender, without the acknowledgement that both sexes could do the other's "gender role".

I disagree, brain scans show differences in male and female gendered people.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

I don't entirely disagree with this; in fact, I have a nihilistic aspect to my approach to the world so I don't really care.

This 20 year old "philosophy student" is just low hanging fruit. I couldn't help myself.

In some ways, I envy him; college was a lot of fun for me - especially because I didn't resign myself to internet forums and call myself a "cogent philosopher".

We'll just have to let this little bud blossom into a disillusioned may-or-may-not-have-abandoned-his-useless-philosophy degree and figure out how the real world works.

I still grapple with forms of philosophy now that I've been gainfully employed for 7 years.

Bachelors of Arts have a bad rep - so maybe I should go easy on this 20 year old who is headed down a painful dead end.

Good luck with your customer service jobs and pile of female rejections when you starting approaching 30. Maybe remind them of your philosophy degree.

LOL

I'm glad I have a full ride through college and am planning to teach as a professor and am actually trying to study rather than party all of the time.

Maybe unlike you, some women value intelligence.