"Scientism" and magic

[MaddLlama]

Issac Bonewits posted a good article on his website, part of which really got me thinking.

http://www.neopagan.net/Scientism.html

I’ve often thought that the overwhelming reason why most modern magic(k) falls so short of its potential is that most modern magicians, whether monotheists or Neopagans, really don’t believe in magic. So they have to keep inventing new definitions for it. After all, magic as psychotherapy can be made to sound scientific, magic as art or poetry is immune from scientific criticism, and magic as a method of spiritual growth is “above” science. But magic as magic, as a way of causing measurable and observable changes in the physical universe, collides head-on with Scientistic dogmas about the nature of reality. Most people simply don’t have the intellectual courage to deal with multiple levels of reality, with nested paradox, or with complex ambiguity. They like things kept as simple as possible, so they wind up closing their eyes to the complex, yet potentially liberating, aspects of their environment. This may be the single most important reason why successful magicians are rare in any culture, and almost unheard of in the West.

Is this true? Do modern Pagans try to rationalize magic, and turn it into something intellectual so it can be immune to criticism from secularists? Does magic need to have a scientific explanation, or be "beyond science" in order to be valid in our society?
I have to admit to being guilty of this at times.

 

[TaraMoon]

Chaos magicians would argue that belief is immaterial and that it's the practice of magic that produces results. In other words, the rituals have inherent power to manifest change.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Chaos magicians would argue that belief is immaterial and that it's the practice of magic that produces results. In other words, the rituals have inherent power to manifest change.

They would also say that belief is the tool by which results occur. Many chaos magicians would argue that all things are immaterial; only the experience of them through belief make them "true."

Edit: Oh, and welcome to the forum! Feel free to drop by the New Members forum and introduce yourself.

 

[Draconis]

To me, it doesn't hurt to try for a proper understanding of the energies your manipulating.

 

[Mr Cheese]

I think few are aware of what magic is, and just quote Crowley ad infinitum....

a tougher question would be to ask a pagan to compare magic to mysticism and explain the differences...

 

[Troublemane]

I met Bonewits at a pagan festival about 10 years ago, he's a brilliant man. And has a great sense of humor. And as it was his book (Real Magic) that helped put me on the path I am an on today, i have absolute respect for the man.

I agree, as many of the people I have met in occult circles, such as in the OTO or even Bonewits' own ADF, seem to freak out when real magick happens around them. The guys in the ADF were like Role Playing Gamers fer real, like they talked about putting their "shields" up whenever something mystical or strange happened. (WOW--Puh Lease fellas! if you manifest fear thats what you create.)

The people I talked with in the OTO seemed more into who was bringing the cheesecake, it was kinda like a rotary club. I asked if anyone had done the HGA ritual (which Crowley came up with, and i have done), and i was met with blank looks...like, nobody does that ritual, thats just in stories and stuff.

I think many people like to flirt with the occult, but are really terrified to have it come into their lives for real.