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Scientists actually do know everything about the universe.

godnotgod

godnotgod

Thou art That
Parsimony said:
A closed universe of finite size has no edge. It's rather like living on a racetrack or being embedded in the surface of a sphere: you go far enough and you'll return to your starting point.

I don't think so. The Big Bang still happened at a finite point in the past.
Click to expand...

A 'finite point in the past' indicates that it occurred in Time and Space, which, according to the theory, did not come into play until the Big Bang occurred. Therefore, the BB must have occurred in No-Space/Time.

There must be something to define the Universe as 'finite'. What is it?
 
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Ben Dhyan

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Parsimony said:
A closed universe of finite size has no edge. It's rather like living on a racetrack or being embedded in the surface of a sphere: you go far enough and you'll return to your starting point.

I don't think so. The Big Bang still happened at a finite point in the past.
Click to expand...
But a racetrack has an edge..and so does a sphere....so as analogies they fall short....please describe the shape of this finite universe?

Yes...I must admit I find it difficult to imagine how their flat universe could be eternal and infinite and yet consistent with the theoretical big bang beginning? But in any event, according to my understanding, there could not have been a beginning to the universe as logic defies a miraculous creation from nothing...and besides, there is no evidence that nothing could ever exist...
 
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godnotgod

godnotgod

Thou art That
ben d said:
.... there could not have been a beginning to the universe as logic defies a miraculous creation from nothing...and besides, there is no evidence that nothing could ever exist...
Click to expand...

This assumes that there was a 'something' that was 'created'. Materialism and theism both say that is the case, but if this 'material something' is an illusion, and, as you and I always point out: 'only Brahman is real', then this so-called 'material' world is none other than Brahman playing itself AS the material world via the power of maya. Then perhaps the Big Bang, rather than being an act of creation of 'something', was an event in Consciousness, which is not in Time or Space, and which manifests itself as the material world in Time and Space. IOW, non-material Being is manifesting as material Existence.

http://quanta-gaia.org/dobson/EquationsOfMaya.html
 
Ben Dhyan

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
godnotgod said:
This assumes that there was a 'something' that was 'created'. Materialism and theism both say that is the case, but if this 'material something' is an illusion, and, as you and I always point out: 'only Brahman is real', then this so-called 'material' world is none other than Brahman playing itself AS the material world via the power of maya. Then perhaps the Big Bang, rather than being an act of creation of 'something', was an event in Consciousness, which is not in Time or Space, and which manifests itself as the material world in Time and Space. IOW, non-material Being is manifesting as material Existence.

http://quanta-gaia.org/dobson/EquationsOfMaya.html
Click to expand...
The very idea of the non-manifesting (non-material) Being manifesting....is maya of sorts.....the so called non-material and the material are one....only the dualistc mind sees them as two aspects... Maya has no reality in and of itself...it is only another word to describe what happens when the non-dual is treated as not non-dual...
 
Rick O'Shez

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
ben d said:
Non-dual reality....
Click to expand...

Still doesn't help. Tautology. What is "non-dual reality"?

We were discussing in another thread how we only perceive a small fraction of the universe, so how does your "non-dual reality" fit in with that?
 
Ben Dhyan

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Rick O'Shez said:
Still doesn't help. Tautology. What is "non-dual reality"?

We were discussing in another thread how we only perceive a small fraction of the universe, so how does your "non-dual reality" fit in with that?
Click to expand...
Non-dual reality is absolute reality.......it is the sum total of all existence....that which is seen by humans and that which is beyond perception...that which is known, and that which is unknown....
 
Rick O'Shez

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
ben d said:
Non-dual reality is absolute reality.......it is the sum total of all existence....that which is seen by humans and that which is beyond perception...that which is known, and that which is unknown....
Click to expand...

So "non-dual reality" is actually just the universe then? Why on earth do you have to use all this deepity jargon?
 
Ben Dhyan

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Rick O'Shez said:
Everything, known and unknown.
Click to expand...
Ok...so here's the rub....I am using conceptual language merely as a necessary expedient to explain the this everything, known and unknown, is of itself, neither known nor not known, it also is not everything because it is an indivisible one...that's what non-dual means.. Science does not deal with the non-dual reality...the universe it perceives is maya...
 
Rick O'Shez

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
ben d said:
Ok...so here's the rub....I am using conceptual language merely as a necessary expedient to explain the this everything, known and unknown, is of itself, neither known nor not known, it also is not everything because it is an indivisible one...that's what non-dual means.. Science does not deal with the non-dual reality...the universe it perceives is maya...
Click to expand...

Well now you are going off into the realm of religious belief, and making a lot of unsubstantiated claims about the unknown.
 
godnotgod

godnotgod

Thou art That
ben d said:
The very idea of the non-manifesting (non-material) Being manifesting....is maya of sorts.....the so called non-material and the material are one....only the dualistc mind sees them as two aspects... Maya has no reality in and of itself...it is only another word to describe what happens when the non-dual is treated as not non-dual...
Click to expand...

While The Universe is none other than Brahman itself, The Universe comes and goes, while Brahman does not come and go.

If, as I have stated, non-material Being is manifesting itself as material Existence, then both are one and the same, with 'material' Existence being the illusion, and non-material Being the Reality. So looking at it this way, non-duality is preserved.
 
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