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Scientists actually do know everything about the universe.

godnotgod

Thou art That
You really do sound like a cult-member. You might need some kind of treatment.

So Planck is a cult leader? Now we're getting interesting.

Have you packed your bags yet? Best not miss the next opportunity to come face to face with Dr. Chopra, so you can have your mind fixed. It's such a muddle! Poor fellow!

Now go to your room!
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls

Well, DUH! Identification with the aggregates is none other than conditioning.:p

No, it isn't. It is pointless trying to discuss Buddhism with you, your only interest is in misrepresenting these teachings to make them fit your DIY religion.

Everything you say is a half-truth, and you are a con-man. Just like your dodgy guru.
 
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Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
So Planck is a cult leader? Now we're getting interesting.

Have you packed your bags yet? Best not miss the next opportunity to come face to face with Dr. Chopra, so you can have your mind fixed. It's such a muddle! Poor fellow!

Now go to your room!

No, Chopra is the cult-leader and you have been brain-washed.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
No, Chopra is the cult-leader and you are one of his gullible clones.

Best catch the next flight out to the Chopra Center or you will forever remain the mess that you are. Now git!

(but it may be too late, as I sense your brain is steeped in Guinness)
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Yeah, that's what the Hindus said to the Buddha, and what The Church said to Galileo.

So now you are comparing yourself to the Buddha and Galileo. Those delusions of grandeur again. I would recommend that you seek professional help and stop embarrassing yourself on the internet.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
No it really isn't, and you are perverting what Buddhism teaches, as usual.

Skandha (स्कन्ध) is a Sanskrit word that means "multitude, quantity, aggregate", generally in the context of body, trunk, stem, empirically observed gross object or anything of bulk verifiable with senses.[1][14] The term appears in the Vedic literature. The Pali equivalent is Khandha (sometimes spelled Kkhanda).[3] The word Khandha appears extensively in the Pali canon, where state Rhys Davids and William Stede, it means "bulk of the body, aggregate, heap, material collected into bulk" in one context, "all that is comprised under, groupings" in some contexts, and particularly as "the elements or substrata of sensory existence, sensorial aggregates which condition the appearance of life in any form".[1]
*****

While all the aggregates are conditioned phenomena marked by the three characteristics, consciousness serves as the connecting thread of personal continuity through the sequence of rebirths....
*****

Four Paramatthas
The Abhidhamma and post-canonical Pali texts create a meta-scheme for the Sutta Pitaka's conceptions of aggregates, sense bases and dhattus (elements).[52] This meta-scheme is known as the four paramatthas or four ultimate realities.

Ultimate realities
There are four paramatthas; three conditioned, one unconditioned:

  • Material phenomena (rūpa, form)
  • Mind or Consciousness (Citta)
  • Mental factors (Cetasikas: the nama-factors sensation, perception and formation)
  • Nibbāna
*****

Description: the five skandhas
The Buddha teachings in the Pali Canon describe [one of] the five aggregates as follows:
  1. "mental formations", "constructing activities",[21] "conditioned things", "volition", "karmic activities" (Skt. संस्कार saṃskāra, Pāli सङ्खार saṅkhāra, Tib. 'du-byed): all types of mental imprints and conditioning triggered by an object.[22][23][d] This skandha includes any process that makes a person initiate action or act.[21]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skandha

The self is the outcome of mental formations and imprints.
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
I think you are the one in need of some treatment.

He's waiting for you. I told him about you. He loves you, even though you hate him. Your hate for Chopra and New Agers must die. Buddha loves Chopra. Chopra loves Buddha. You say you are a Buddhist. What does that mean when you spout hatred for Chopra? It will make you sick, my friend. Now stop, before it's too late, OK?
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
The self is the outcome of mental formations and imprints.

You are confusing self with self-view, and your quote-mining is pointless and irrelevant as usual.

You are trying to pretend that Buddhism supports your new-age flap-doodle mysticism, but it really doesn't.

Your only interest is in twisting authentic spiritual teachings and scientific discoveries to make them fit your DIY religion. It is all about promoting your dodgy guru's strange ideas.
 
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Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls

He's waiting for you. I told him about you. He loves you, even though you hate him. Your hate for Chopra and New Agers must die. Buddha loves Chopra. Chopra loves Buddha. You say you are a Buddhist. What does that mean when you spout hatred for Chopra? It will make you sick, my friend. Now stop, before it's too late, OK?

I don't hate anyone, I just recognise BS when I see it. Chopra reeks of it, and you reek of it.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
I don't hate anyone, I just recognise BS when I see it. Chopra reeks of it and you reek of it.

I see it as hatred. Not too healthy.

Derogatory labeling has no foundation. You must qualify your accusations. I qualified a position in contradiction to yours by the fact that many gave positive responses to their experiences at the Chopra Center, and you just came back with more accusations and saying that they are all deluded. You're clearly wrong. It is the word and and personal experiences of literally thousands against your word and inexperience with the teachings and practices of Deepak Chopra. I say you have some hidden underlying motive for your vicious attacks on both he and myself, and I suspect it has something to do with your feeling that your Precious Traditions have somehow been violated and besmirched by those you consider lesser than yourself. What you should be doing as a Buddhist to involve yourself with New Agers and Chopra advocates and encourage them with their newfound teachings, helping to guide them along, if you think they have been mis-led. Instead, all I have heard for hundreds of posts is vitriol.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
I see it as hatred. Not too healthy.

I don't hate anyone, but I do think Chopra is an obnoxious character and a fraud. Like you.

But what is really unhealthy is your blind guru-faith. Again you sound like a cult-member who sees any criticism of their guru as unfounded and unfair, and as is typical, your knee-jerk response is to ignore the criticisms and launch personal attacks on the critics. And you still haven't responded to the thorough debunking of quantum mysticism earlier in the thread. You simply cannot cope with anything which challenges the fantasy you have created.

 
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idav

Being
Premium Member
Interesting stuff, but how does the weird behaviour of photons support the idea of mind being the foundation of reality?
I can't really say that it does but it makes me think its at least part of the equation. The weird behavior makes it seem as if the photon knows that we are going to change the experiment and suggests a photon can change its past projection, that would be the "quantum eraser" aspect. As I suggested to our friend, there is no way to know how the objects feel without us experiencing that for ourselves. Same for organism, its hard to even determine a snake has awareness let alone a photon, lol, at least if we test they should react as if they have awareness. Photons for obvious reasons is much harder to confirm.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I'm not sure what you mean by "direct knowledge" here, but I think that ALL experience is personal, not least because it is experienced by an individual at a particular time in a particular location. Perception is a complicated process including physiological and psychological aspects, and just stilling the mind or imbibing some mushrooms is not going to short-circuit all that.

I would say that different states of mind/consciousness result in different modes of perception, but those perceptions remain personal at some level. So while such experiences can give useful insights about how we experience the world, I don't see them as valid basis for making grand ontological statements about the nature of the cosmos. Such statements are invariably a matter of religious belief, not based on "direct knowledge".
What I mean by direct knowledge is objective knowledge.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
It is not science that brought about the realization that:

"behind this force [is] the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.”

If that were true, the idea of a conscious universe would be a universally accepted fact in the world of science and the current controversy would be non-existent. But it is not. Only a handful of scientists have come to this realization, but it is an intuitive insight, not one based on factual knowledge because there is no factual evidence to support it. Having said that, some scientists must travel down the scientific path until at some point they come to this kind of realization. However, the mystic cuts right to the heart of the matter (no pun) transcending the thinking mind altogether, and it is the thinking mind that is the basis for science. That is why mystics nailed this question centuries ago without science. They've got to the heart of the matter while science is still busy nibbling around the edges bit by bit.



You are talking about factual knowledge. I am talking about the nature of things. Factual knowledge does not yield the knowledge that tells us what things actually are. It knows about characteristics and their behavior and how to predict behavior. It is not a provable fact that the universe is conscious, but Planck sees this as the nature of things via his intuitive insight. IOW, he's just putting 2 and 2 together. Silence allows one to shut down the chatter of the thinking discursive mind to allow the seeing directly into the nature of Reality. Mind, with its incessant chatter and jumping about (ie 'monkey mind') cannot do that, simply because it is always trying to construct an idea or concept ABOUT Reality Mind is always trying to pigeonhole Reality. 'What is this?' 'How does this work?' etc. Very noisy. Consciousness in Silence just sees things as they are.



You are saying that insight is dependent upon knowledge, but it is the other way around. One must see first.


Right, right the self is an illusion yadayada, that is all really beside the point. Someone may have been able to speculate that the self is an illusion, science simply explains how thats possible. In fact enlightenment occurs with more knowledge. Being all knowing would be, having awareness of everything in the cosmos, this super consciousness your talking about also would have this knowledge your so quick to trash.

A whirlpool is nothing more than whirling water. A 'whirler' of the whirling water does not exist.

Likewise, we are Being itself. An agent of Being called 'I' is both unnecessary and illusory.

No, Enlightenment occurs when consciousness is completely empty. Knowledge stands in the way of Enlightenment. Enlightenment simply means that you now see things as they actually are, rather than how knowledge tells you they are. Knowledge gives you all the facts but tells you nothing. Enlightenment pushes all the facts aside so that it can show you what the true nature of Everything actually is. IOW, the insight that Enlightenment provides cuts through superficial facts and data, and that is exactly why Planck was able to come to the conclusion that he did: he saw into the matter more deeply than science alone can see.

Once again, I am not trashing scientific knowledge, but it stands in the way of having a true insight into the nature of Reality and of The Universe. Science has things backwards. When one attains insight into the nature of things first, then scientific knowledge can then be seen within the correct context of Reality, but science instead wants to explain what the Universe is via factual knowledge, and that is simply impossible. It is a skeletal and dead view of The Universe, and the reason it cannot understand the conscious nature of Everything.
The quote mining of Planck really does not do him justice. My claim is that he says these things based on scientific knowledge but you insist its his awakened state.

Well here is the full quote where he explicitly says its from his years of research and working in science!

Max Planck said in 1944, "As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter."

So please don't make things up and try not to take people out of context. Its the ramifications of science that tells us this, not some insight from "silence" as you put it. If you don't understand why science suggests such things then you'll need to study much harder in quantum mechanic as Planck has given huge contributions on the subject.
 
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