Scientists actually do know everything about the universe.

[Wirey]

Your incorrigible.

Its rather convenient to claim intelligence must come from intelligence because you end up with an eternal regression issue. Where would an intelligent God get intelligence if it must come from intelligence.

Math class?

 

[idav]

Math class?

Quite possible, but it took god billions of years to find a decent math professor.

 

[godnotgod]

Your incorrigible.

Its rather convenient to claim intelligence must come from intelligence because you end up with an eternal regression issue. Where would an intelligent God get intelligence if it must come from intelligence.

Did you notice my quotation marks around the word 'come'? And in the next breath I explicitly said that intelligence does not 'come' from anywhere at all, as it is always present.

I don't know of any agent of intelligence called 'God; I only know about intelligence itself, in the same way that I don't know of any agent of whirling water called 'whirlpool', and only know about whirling water.

Look at it this way: The Universe is not something that has intelligence; it is the manifestation of intelligence itself. But you don't see it that way because the mind is conditioned via Time, Space, and Causation. Remove these filters and you will see The Universe as it actually is.

"The Universe is The Absolute as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"
Vivekenanda

 

[idav]

But you don't see it that way because the mind is conditioned via Time, Space, and Causation. Remove these filters and you will see The Universe as it actually is.

Excuses me I keep forgetting that you are in no way conditioned by time space or causation because you transcend all these things. Sorry mr guru.

"The Universe is The Absolute as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"
Vivekenanda

My pantheist take on the universe has not issue with this quote. We are the universe observing itself like a reflection. Doesn't mean the universe is observing back but your welcome to think so, and nobody can know it is either.

 

[idav]

"The Universe is The Absolute as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"
Vivekenanda

Thats actually kinda the thing though. We seem to be able to say things transcend at a fundamental level, what that means for consciousness, I am not too sure consciousness transcends. Things transcend spacetime at the microscopic level, why can't awareness?

 

[godnotgod]

Excuses me I keep forgetting that you are in no way conditioned by time space or causation because you transcend all these things. Sorry mr guru.

We are all conditioned, but some KNOW they are conditioned.

This is not about the finger that points to the moon; it is about the moon.

Have you seen it yet? No? Well, then, best rip your gaze away from that finger and take a look now before you miss seeing completely, in which case you will be left with only 'the finger'.

 

[idav]

We are all conditioned, but some KNOW they are conditioned.

This is not about the finger that points to the moon; it is about the moon.

Have you seen it yet? No? Well, then, best rip your gaze away from that finger and take a look now before you miss seeing completely, in which case you will be left with only 'the finger'.

I like the way Bruce Lee puts it.

edit: Here is the quote in case
“Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”

 

[godnotgod]

I like the way Bruce Lee puts it.

edit: Here is the quote in case
“Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”

He is reflecting Chinese Taoist thought. The eternal Tao is likened to water.

The finger pointing to the moon is from Zen.

 

[godnotgod]

Excuses me I keep forgetting that you are in no way conditioned by time space or causation because you transcend all these things. Sorry mr guru.

My pantheist take on the universe has not issue with this quote. We are the universe observing itself like a reflection. Doesn't mean the universe is observing back but your welcome to think so, and nobody can know it is either.

The original quote is: 'you are the universe looking at itself through your eyes'.

If the universe were looking back at the observer, you would be back into duality, with an observer separate from the observed, thereby destroying the oneness.

 

[idav]

The original quote is: 'you are the universe looking at itself through your eyes'.

If the universe were looking back at the observer, you would be back into duality, with an observer separate from the observed, thereby destroying the oneness.

That is the sort of thing I get when people say reality is fundamentally conscious. To me this is a misnomer, consciousness is a human construct not to mention illusory. Human consciousness doesn't seem to be part of this oneness(not exactly true cause of oneness but hopefully you can see what I'm getting at), at the very least there are very real physical limitations to this aspect of being part of the oneness. When comparing our limited reality to the Quantum realm, we are physically stuck in a certain paradigm, which is a physical limitation that even silence meditation cannot necessarily get us out of. At most I believe its our way to free will in a very limited sense of the term.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

That is the sort of thing I get when people say reality is fundamentally conscious. To me this is a misnomer, consciousness is a human construct not to mention illusory. Human consciousness doesn't seem to be part of this oneness(not exactly true cause of oneness but hopefully you can see what I'm getting at), at the very least there are very real physical limitations to this aspect of being part of the oneness. When comparing our limited reality to the Quantum realm, we are physically stuck in a certain paradigm, which is a physical limitation that even silence meditation cannot necessarily get us out of. At most I believe its our way to free will in a very limited sense of the term.

Yes, and we are back to the inherent subjectivity of altered states of mind/consciousness. I don't see how subjective psychological experiences like this can be a valid basis for making ontological claims about the nature of the cosmos or whatever.

 

[idav]

Yes, and we are back to the inherent subjectivity of altered states of mind/consciousness. I don't see how subjective psychological experiences like this can be a valid basis for making ontological claims about the nature of the cosmos or whatever.

The Yogi that keeps being referenced, Vivekenanda, believes there to be three levels, conscious, subconscious and super consciousness. Whatever that is supposed to entail. Its just talk until anyone can show what this super consciousness does to make a human more "super" human.

Vivekenanda
Our mind is acting on three planes: the subconscious, conscious, and superconscious. Of men, the Yogi alone is superconscious. The whole theory ofYoga is to go beyond the mind. These three planes can be understood by considering the vibrations of light or sound. There are certain vibrations of light too slow to become visible; then as they get faster, we see them as light; and then they get too fast for us to see them at all. The same with sound.

 

[godnotgod]

That is the sort of thing I get when people say reality is fundamentally conscious. To me this is a misnomer, consciousness is a human construct not to mention illusory. Human consciousness doesn't seem to be part of this oneness(not exactly true cause of oneness but hopefully you can see what I'm getting at), at the very least there are very real physical limitations to this aspect of being part of the oneness. When comparing our limited reality to the Quantum realm, we are physically stuck in a certain paradigm, which is a physical limitation that even silence meditation cannot necessarily get us out of. At most I believe its our way to free will in a very limited sense of the term.

Consciousness is not a mental construct, but mind is. Mind is a self-created principle, and as such, is illusory. Herein lies the problem in seeing consciousness as not being part of the oneness. The mind (ie; 'I'' 'self') sees itself as distinct, unique, and separate from other minds and from the universe, because it has created the concepts of 'observer'/'observed'; 'subject/object', when in reality, no such distinction exists, and because 'I' itself does not exist. The reality is that we are 100% integrated into the Universe, both physically and mentally. If you don't think so, show me where we leave off and the Universe begins. There is no 'observer over here' and 'Universe over there'. That is only an artificial construct which science especially presents as a means of extracting data and factual knowledge from the Universe.

Why do you think that consciousness is a human construct? Babies and animals are conscious, but incapable of creating any such constructs.

Why do you say consciousness is illusory when it is self-evident?

 

[idav]

Why do you say consciousness is illusory when it is self-evident?

Cause its a trick making us think we are separate when we really are not. However don't miss my point about there being real physical limitations. To say we transcends space time and causation means it would entail a lot more that even your not willing to go there.

Human consciousness is clearly not the same as other animals save for a few select types of mammals.

 

[godnotgod]

Yes, and we are back to the inherent subjectivity of altered states of mind/consciousness. I don't see how subjective psychological experiences like this can be a valid basis for making ontological claims about the nature of the cosmos or whatever.

Man is already in 'altered states of consciousness' as a socially indoctrinated animal, but he doesn't realize it. This is essentially 'self-view', by which one thinks the self to be real, when there exists no inherent self-nature, as the Heart Sutra tells us. When the awakened mind comes to see the emptiness of all things, as the Buddha did, consciousness returns, or rather, awakens to its true state, which is not that of self-view, but that of universal view, and it is this universal view, or 'Buddha Mind', what is Unconditioned, Unborn, and Uncaused; therefore it is an unaltered state of consciousness, or 'Original Mind', as Buddhism calls. Taoism calls it 'The Uncarved Block', referring to the uncarved block of wood before the carver (ie 'society) puts the first mark (of socialization) onto it.

The reason most humans don't realize they are already in an altered state of consciousness is because we are born into it. We are impacted via socialization from the get-go, and eventually lose sight of our true natures. Like the fish who is born into the sea, he does not realize he is in the sea, and his primary focus is not on the sea, but on predators and food. Our attention is also captured by what is going on outside; via the glitter and noise of society, (and eventually of the ego) and the quiet, inner voices are essentially drowned out.

But neither 'subjective nor objective views' can provide a clear view of the nature of the cosmos, the former being immersed in a personal view and the latter in a false view which says that the observer is separate from the observed. Only an unmodified view free from personal influences or from the mental contruct of 'objectivity' can give us a clear view. That view is the same view as that of the Universe itself, which is free of 'self' or 'I'. It is this false notion of self that is creating the distorted view (altered state of consciousness) in the first place.

 

[godnotgod]

Cause its a trick making us think we are separate when we really are not.

You are talking about 'mind', not consciousness. Consciousness is present before mind comes into play. You can verify this yourself by sitting quietly until all thoughts come to a complete halt. Without thought, which is a function of mind, there is still consciousness present. Now you see, rather than think. It is that consciousness, now freed from the idea of 'I' and 'self', that is the non-local consciousness of the Universe.

However don't miss my point about there being real physical limitations. To say we transcends space time and causation means it would entail a lot more that even your not willing to go there.

When Time, Space, and Causation are transcended, so is the body, because the body is in Time, Space, and Causation, that is to say, in Existence, rather than Being. When you transcend, you are in Being, or Pure Consciousness, outside of Time, Space, and Causation.

Human consciousness is clearly not the same as other animals save for a few select types of mammals.[/QUOTE]

No, but animals are clearly conscious.

Are you conscious?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Human consciousness is clearly not the same as other animals save for a few select types of mammals.

Even simple organisms have a basic awareness of their environment, and I think you can look at consciousness in higher mammals as an evolution of that, a more sophisticated awareness. We also have self-awareness. In altered states of mind there are changes in self-awareness and aspects of psychological perception. However the range of our physical senses is defined by our physiology, so we are still receiving the same "input".

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The Yogi that keeps being referenced, Vivekenanda, believes there to be three levels, conscious, subconscious and super consciousness. Whatever that is supposed to entail. Its just talk until anyone can show what this super consciousness does to make a human more "super" human.

It IS just talk, not least because our physiology dictates prescribed limits for our sensory input. Altered states of mind are actually just altered states of mind, it is then a matter of interpretation.
But I certainly don't see altered states of mind as a valid basis for making ontological claims like the big bang being an event in consciousness, or space-time being merely a concept, that is just unsubstantiated religious belief.

 

[godnotgod]

It IS just talk, not least because our physiology dictates prescribed limits for our sensory input. Altered states of mind are actually just altered states of mind.

No. Altered States in terms of Super-Consciousness is transcendent of Limited Mind. In fact, it is transcendent of physiology because it is non-local. The consciousness by which the Buddha saw that all phenomena are empty was an 'altered' state of consciousness, as the ordinary man would see it, but in reality, his consciousness is actually an unaltered state; the default state known as Enlightenment. It is the ordinary man's consciousness that is in an altered state, as it has been socialized since birth, otherwise known as the state of Identification, or, 'Waking Sleep', the Third Level of Consciousness.

"The superconscious mind encompasses a level of awareness that sees both material reality and also the energy and consciousness behind that reality.

If we have a really good meditation and feel “fully calm” as you have stated, then we are beginning to experience a level of superconsciousness. As we go deeper in meditation and experience a deepening peace, calmness, divine love, and even bliss, then we are experiencing deeper levels of the superconscious. The superconscious is where true creativity is found. Expressions of this kind of creativity are distinctive from those that come from the subconscious. The superconscious is where ideas for truly great works of art, music, prose, poetry, great scientific discoveries, and deep spiritual experiences are found.

Paramhansa Yogananda made an interesting statement. He said that, “Thoughts are universally, not individually, rooted.” This means that as we elevate our consciousness and access the superconscious, we are accessing the thoughts that live on that level of consciousness. These thoughts don’t belong to us, but are universally available to those who live more on that level of consciousness.

The opposite is also true. If we live mainly on the conscious or subconscious level, then we attract the kinds of thoughts that live on those levels of consciousness.

Generally speaking the conscious mind sees everything as separate from each other. A chair is only a chair, a person is simply the body they inhabit and nothing more. It has a very limited view of the world around it.

The superconscious mind sees that everything is, in reality, made of energy and consciousness and, therefore, it sees the underlying unity behind the outer forms.

The subconscious mind consists of “the unprocessed residue of thoughts, actions, and memories that are ever present, but more or less unnoticed. They greatly influence the conscious mind, which doesn’t often realize how ungoverned by free will its decisions really are.” (from Awaken to Superconsciousness, by Swami Kriyananda) In other words, the subconscious influences a lot of what we do each day, but those influences are from past actions and the habits we have created from them. This means that ideas that are drawn from the subconscious are not going to be new and creative. Looking in the subconscious can be like rummaging around the closet to see what we’ve stored away. This is why the usual dream state often has a confused and murky feel to it. There are also superconscious dreams, but they will have an uplifting and life-changing effect on us, and feel quite different from the usual dreams we may have."

https://www.ananda.org/ask/levels-of-consciousness-and-what-they-represent/

 

[idav]

You are talking about 'mind', not consciousness. Consciousness is present before mind comes into play. You can verify this yourself by sitting quietly until all thoughts come to a complete halt. Without thought, which is a function of mind, there is still consciousness present. Now you see, rather than think. It is that consciousness, now freed from the idea of 'I' and 'self', that is the non-local consciousness of the Universe.

The bold is fascinating unsubstantiated claim. From this sort of claim then enlightenment should entail omniscience which should easily be provable if true.

No, but animals are clearly conscious.

Awesome, and non-living organisms are not conscious.