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Scientists Who Believe in a Creator, and Why.

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Can you please show me where dna is evidence of evolution?
I believe spamming and trolling is against forum rules.
The following links are to the posts that just I have made in direct response to you in just the past 6 months explaining how DNA is used in evolution research:

Who knows about the "Taung child" fossil?

Evolution is a fact?!

Evolution is a fact?!

Evolution is a fact?!

Evidence For And Against Evolution

Evidence For And Against Evolution


That does not count the responses of others to you.

I cannot think of a more explicit exposure of your antics as being disingenuous trolling. That or maybe you have a mental disorder or something (not being facetious).

And why not make it 7 times in just the past 6 months? I'll be able to link back to this the next time you feign ignorance (or more likely, re-display your militant ignorance) of this subject:


I forget now who originally posted these on this forum*, but I keep it in my archives because it offers a nice 'linear' progression of testing a methodology and then applying it:

The tested methodology:

Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.



We can ASSUME that the results of an application of those methods have merit.



Application of the tested methodology:

Implications of natural selection in shaping 99.4% nonsynonymous DNA identity between humans and chimpanzees: Enlarging genus Homo

"Here we compare ≈90 kb of coding DNA nucleotide sequence from 97 human genes to their sequenced chimpanzee counterparts and to available sequenced gorilla, orangutan, and Old World monkey counterparts, and, on a more limited basis, to mouse. The nonsynonymous changes (functionally important), like synonymous changes (functionally much less important), show chimpanzees and humans to be most closely related, sharing 99.4% identity at nonsynonymous sites and 98.4% at synonymous sites. "



Mitochondrial Insertions into Primate Nuclear Genomes Suggest the Use of numts as a Tool for Phylogeny

"Moreover, numts identified in gorilla Supercontigs were used to test the human–chimp–gorilla trichotomy, yielding a high level of support for the sister relationship of human and chimpanzee."



A Molecular Phylogeny of Living Primates

"Once contentiously debated, the closest human relative of chimpanzee (Pan) within subfamily Homininae (Gorilla, Pan, Homo) is now generally undisputed. The branch forming the Homo andPanlineage apart from Gorilla is relatively short (node 73, 27 steps MP, 0 indels) compared with that of thePan genus (node 72, 91 steps MP, 2 indels) and suggests rapid speciation into the 3 genera occurred early in Homininae evolution. Based on 54 gene regions, Homo-Pan genetic distance range from 6.92 to 7.90×10−3 substitutions/site (P. paniscus and P. troglodytes, respectively), which is less than previous estimates based on large scale sequencing of specific regions such as chromosome 7[50]. "




No presuppositions there - just tests of a method followed by applications of the method.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I believe spamming and trolling is against forum rules.
The following links are to the posts that just I have made in direct response to you in just the past 6 months explaining how DNA is used in evolution research:

Who knows about the "Taung child" fossil?

Evolution is a fact?!

Evolution is a fact?!

Evolution is a fact?!

Evidence For And Against Evolution

Evidence For And Against Evolution


That does not count the responses of others to you.

I cannot think of a more explicit exposure of your antics as being disingenuous trolling. That or maybe you have a mental disorder or something (not being facetious).
(lol)

And why not make it 7 times in just the past 6 months? I'll be able to link back to this the next time you feign ignorance (or more likely, re-display your militant ignorance) of this subject:


I forget now who originally posted these on this forum*, but I keep it in my archives because it offers a nice 'linear' progression of testing a methodology and then applying it:

The tested methodology:

Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.



We can ASSUME that the results of an application of those methods have merit.



Application of the tested methodology:

Implications of natural selection in shaping 99.4% nonsynonymous DNA identity between humans and chimpanzees: Enlarging genus Homo

"Here we compare ≈90 kb of coding DNA nucleotide sequence from 97 human genes to their sequenced chimpanzee counterparts and to available sequenced gorilla, orangutan, and Old World monkey counterparts, and, on a more limited basis, to mouse. The nonsynonymous changes (functionally important), like synonymous changes (functionally much less important), show chimpanzees and humans to be most closely related, sharing 99.4% identity at nonsynonymous sites and 98.4% at synonymous sites. "



Mitochondrial Insertions into Primate Nuclear Genomes Suggest the Use of numts as a Tool for Phylogeny

"Moreover, numts identified in gorilla Supercontigs were used to test the human–chimp–gorilla trichotomy, yielding a high level of support for the sister relationship of human and chimpanzee."



A Molecular Phylogeny of Living Primates

"Once contentiously debated, the closest human relative of chimpanzee (Pan) within subfamily Homininae (Gorilla, Pan, Homo) is now generally undisputed. The branch forming the Homo andPanlineage apart from Gorilla is relatively short (node 73, 27 steps MP, 0 indels) compared with that of thePan genus (node 72, 91 steps MP, 2 indels) and suggests rapid speciation into the 3 genera occurred early in Homininae evolution. Based on 54 gene regions, Homo-Pan genetic distance range from 6.92 to 7.90×10−3 substitutions/site (P. paniscus and P. troglodytes, respectively), which is less than previous estimates based on large scale sequencing of specific regions such as chromosome 7[50]. "




No presuppositions there - just tests of a method followed by applications of the method.[/QUOTE]
OK, I'm on to another question now, since you believe it has been proven (oops...) by evidence that evolution is a real (live) fact. To this day.
So--can scientists tell the difference between chimpanzee dna and human dna? I believe they can, but maybe I'm wrong. So can they? A 'yes' or 'no' answer would help, thanks.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
This anatomical evolution or progression does not alter or affect the statement that the development of man was always human in type and biological in progression.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 358-359

So, straight from the horse's mouth, there is unquestionable proof that Bahais do not be live in Evolution.

What other sciences did your leaders talk about? Did they accept heliocentricity?


Personally I see that is what science needs to consider and they may make many amazing discoveries.

Nah. Science considered the pronouncements of men allegedly speaking for a god for far too long. Then they decided to drop supernaturalism and now we know that lobster and pork ribs are really good to eat. We know the earth revolves around the sun. We know the age of the universe and the earth. We can even make vaccines that mostly protect us from viral infections. These are all things that "god" got wrong.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
So, straight from the horse's mouth, there is unquestionable proof that Bahais do not be live in Evolution.

No, that is not correct.

Did you read and understand the "extract" you posted?
Perhaps you need to explain what this means.

This anatomical evolution or progression does not alter or affect the statement that the development of man was always human in type
That clearly states that man did not evolve from a non-human "type".
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member



Did you read and understand the "extract" you posted?
Perhaps you need to explain what this means.

This anatomical evolution or progression does not alter or affect the statement that the development of man was always human in type
That clearly states that man did not evolve from a non-human "type".

I offer you need to read the entire quote to put that into context.

It is saying no matter what form man has walked on this earth, we were always the species of man, not of the ape species.

Regards Tony
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I offer you need to read the entire quote to put that into context.

It is saying no matter what form man has walked on this earth, we were always the species of man, not of the ape species.

Regards Tony
That makes no sense since we are still apes. Humans are the product of evolution. That has nothing to do with the existence or non-existence of a God.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
That makes no sense since we are still apes. Humans are the product of evolution. That has nothing to do with the existence or non-existence of a God.

It has all to do with intelligent design, IMHO.

Created for a purpose and the ability to evolve is built into that process

Regards Tony
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It has all to do with intelligent design, IMHO.

Created for a purpose and the ability to evolve is built into that process

Regards Tony
But there is no reliable evidence for intelligent design. So far there is only wishful thinking at best. Those that propose show that they likely do not believe it themselves since they refuse to form a proper scientific hypothesis of ID.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
But there is no reliable evidence for intelligent design. So far there is only wishful thinking at best. Those that propose show that they likely do not believe it themselves since they refuse to form a proper scientific hypothesis of ID.

I see a good test for intelligence is humility. I have tried to imagine the smartest being possible and it always ends up, that there will always be someone smarter.

Logically to me, that is because our intelligent is contained, not uncontained. If we were uncontained we would be looking at the creation, not from within it wondering what it all is.

I predict that we will find that our intelligence has its boundaries and that there is beings way far more progressive than we have been to date in exploring that intelligence.

Regards Tony
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I see a good test for intelligence is humility. I have tried to imagine the smartest being possible and it always ends up, that there will always be someone smarter.

Logically to me, that is because our intelligent is contained, not uncontained. If we were uncontained we would be looking at the creation, not from within it wondering what it all is.

I predict that we will find that our intelligence has its boundaries and that there is beings way far more progressive than we have been to date in exploring that intelligence.

Regards Tony
Sorry, but none of those are good tests. Nor are they logical. A good test has to have a clear way that the concept could possibly be refuted. All you have is confirmation bias and not evidence with those sorts of tests.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Sorry, but none of those are good tests. Nor are they logical. A good test has to have a clear way that the concept could possibly be refuted. All you have is confirmation bias and not evidence with those sorts of tests.

Luckily there are scientists that will explore all these concepts.

It will be a great future when unity replaces war.

Regards Tony
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I offer you need to read the entire quote to put that into context.

It is saying no matter what form man has walked on this earth, we were always the species of man, not of the ape species.


I did read the entire text. You just admitted that man was never of the ape species. Evolution says he was.

If you still disagree, surely there is more that your leaders have written on the subject.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I did read the entire text. You just admitted that man was never of the ape species. Evolution says he was.

If you still disagree, surely there is more that your leaders have written on the subject.

There is indeed much written for us to consider. I see the material Science of Evolution, has not yet found all the answers.

Faith tells me, that God has offered that the species of Man has evolved as per an intelligent design and purpose.

All the best and Regards Tony
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Faith tells me, that God has offered that the species of Man has evolved as per an intelligent design and purpose.
I didn't ask what faith tells you.

You posted a Bahai paper that, to me, clearly stated that man has not evolved from another species. This would show that the official stance of Bahai is that evolution is wrong. You disagree. OK.

I suggested that there must be other pronouncements from Bahai that would clarify the issue. Wouldn't you like to see them as well?
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member

So you think being a disingenuous, dishonest troll is funny? And lol when you are presented with A) evidence you clearly cannot understand and B)evidence of your dishonesty and trollish antics?
Cool belief system...
OK, I'm on to another question now, since you believe it has been proven (oops...) by evidence that evolution is a real (live) fact. To this day.
You could have just been honest and written "I do not understand science above a grade school level, but my religious sect demands that I reject it anyway, so that is why I act the way I do."
So--can scientists tell the difference between chimpanzee dna and human dna? I believe they can, but maybe I'm wrong. So can they? A 'yes' or 'no' answer would help, thanks.
It would be possible to do so when considering specific sequences.

Or are you asking whether the nucleotides themselves are different in different creatures?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
ok, you can say what you want. I'll leave it this way -- despite the fossils and similarities of gorillas, chimpanzees, using these things as evidence, including similar dna as if that "proves" it, or it's evidence as you would say (not proof of course...) it still is not evidence, and if evidence is not a sure thing of the theory, well, all I can say is once again -- hope all goes well for you. BTW, I'm speaking on the basis of -- no realllll proof. You might want to say the evidence supports the theory -- dna similarity, looks, fish wih feet or legs, again -- and you might say this is bizarre -- still no need that gorillas have evolved to want to wear underwear. Ever wonder why? After you do that, maybe you can believe the idea that homosexuality has evolved in the human genes as scientists seem to be proposing now. So maybe there will be mandates or agreements that if humans want the human race to continue, they'll have to use the genes available to do it. :)
Now you're back to declaring that shared DNA doesn't demonstrate relatedness and ancestry. You are declaring that nobody could ever tell or demonstrate that we are more closely related to our mothers than to our grandmothers. Or that humans are more closely related to chimpanzees than they are to bananas.

You are now flat out denying reality.

You've now eliminated yourself from reasonable conversation and discussion.

Thanks for playing.
 
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