Scripture gives bad behaviors credibility

[icehorse]

There are many examples of this. Here's ISIS (horrifically), taking sex slaves based on Islamic scripture:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/14/w...t&contentID=WhatsNext&src=recg&pgtype=article

But we see Christians behaving badly as well. Denying condoms to AIDs torn Africa, shielding pedophiles from prosecution, denying climate change, and on and on.

If the perpetrators of these actions relied on old books that weren't in vogue, they'd get a tiny fraction of the support they get. ISIS's recruitment activities are empowered because they can so easily use Islamic scripture as marketing material. This would be much harder if ISIS was trying to use a 1400 year old book that no one ever heard of.

Coupled with the fact that most of scripture is horribly flawed from moral and ethical perspectives, it strikes me that scripture is a LOT more trouble than it's worth.

Why do folks keep defending their scripture?

p.s. Please note that I'm not wrapping "religion" into the question, in this thread I'm trying to keep scripture separate and distinct from religion.

 

[jojom]

Why do folks keep defending their scripture?

Because it's the source of belief. The believer can say god is such and such, and that they will be saved from eternal damnation by pointing to the words that say so. Destroy these words and the authority for their faith disappears.


.

 

[DawudTalut]

Peace be on you.
1=World is in the hands of general corrupt behaviour. Pick up any field, you will find it.

2=War has become industry.
http://stopwar.org.uk/news/good-for...-biggest-arms-dealers-exploit-remembrance-day


3= They need guises to have wars. World wars caused unprecedented loss but no religion was behind those.

4= Their is a great role of greedy, non-righteous, low I.Q, clergies and mullahs, who become toys at the hands of international manipulators.

5= "" A very important question which relates to the propagation of all divine messages. It relates to the instrument of propagation Adherents of almost all religions, as they move away in time from the source, are invariably known to have employed coercion either to keep people within the fold of their religion, or to convert others into their faith. But according to the Holy Quran, this in no way reflects upon their religion's attitude to coercion. No religion at its source has ever permitted the use of force in any form whatsoever. In fact all religions have been made targets of coercion, and no efforts were spared by their opponents to arrest the growth of religions at their source and to annihilate them completely. Every time a new prophet came, attempts were invariably made by the enemies to suppress his message through the use of force and merciless persecution. It is the most tragic irony therefore that of all the books, the Holy Quran is singled out today as proponent of the employment of coercion for the sake of the spread of its message. Even greater tragedy lies in the fact that it is the Muslim clergy itself which loudly propounds this view, blatantly attributing it to the Holy Quran.

The Holy Quran, it should be remembered, is the only Divine book which absolves all the prophets of the world, wherever and in whichever age they were born, of the crime of coercion in relation to the spread of their message. Hence it is inconceivable that the Quran should present its Holy Prophet (sa) as the harbinger of an era of bloodshed in the name of peace, and hatred in the name of love of God. This is no place to engage in intricate polemical discussions, so this brief introduction should suffice here. According to the Quran, the Holy War, called Jihad, is in reality a holy campaign which uses the help of the Quran to bring about a spiritual revolution in the world.

• 
  Fight against them by means Of it (the Quran) a great fight Surah Al-Furqan (Ch. 25, V,53)

These are the very words of the Quran which throw light on the nature of Jihad. It must be fought by means of the Quran and the Quranic message alone. Again, to tame one's rebellious nature into complete submission to God is another form of Jihad which is in fact the greater Jihad, according to the Holy Prophet of Islam. On returning from a battle, he is reported to have said:

• 
  We are returning from the lesser Jihad to the greater Jihad.4

Of course, defensive war is permitted only on the condition that the enemies initiate hostilities and raise sword against a weak, defenceless people for having committed the only crime of declaring that God is their Lord. All offensive wars according to Islam are unholy.''"
https://www.alislam.org/books/study-of-islam/jihad.html


6= ""The presentation of Islam as a crude and barbaric religion which gives itself the right to cause unwarranted human and material suffering and destruction under the guise of Divine authority, is not the kind of Islam we find in the Holy Quran and in the precepts of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him!)

7:57; 11:86; 29:37)Mischief and wickedness are condemned in several other verses and Muslims are commanded to work wholly for peace.

Islam draws attention to factors which tend to disturb or destroy peace and order, and deprecates them. Domination of one group by another in the domestic sphere, or of one people by another in the international sphere is a potent cause of disturbance of peace and is therefore strongly condemned. Economic exploitation of one people or country by another inevitably leads to domination by the exploiters, and develops into a potential threat to peace. The Holy Quran prohibits such exploitation and an economy based on exploitation cannot be beneficial in its consequences, nor can it endure.

Islam visualizes an association of strong and stable states allied together in the pursuance of peace, freedom of conscience and the promotion of human welfare. Treaties or covenants between nations may have to be drawn up which should be done in a straightforward language and should not be evaded or repudiated under the temptation of securing some advantage. In case of difficulties and disputes, it is the duty of Muslims to bring about a peaceful settlement and adjustment.

The Holy Quran teaches that God has sent His revelation to all people from time to time. Many of prophets of the Old Testament are mentioned by name and so is Jesus who with other prophets is honoured and revered by all Muslims. Indeed, the Quran requires belief in the truth of all these prophets. Islam is thus unique and distinct in requiring an affirmation in all prophets wherever they appeared and therefore it seeks to bring about reconciliation between the followers of different faiths and to establish a basis of respect and honour among them. The Quran says:

Surely, those who believe and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - whichever party from among these truly believes in ALLAH and the Last Day and does good deeds, shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon then nor shall they grieve (2:63)

The same message is repeated in 5:70. The basic unity of the followers of all faiths is emphatically stressed in the Holy Quran and the creation of discord and disunity by terrorism or otherwise has no place in Islam.

In the domain of international relations, religion and inter-religious relations occupy an important position. Unfortunately, comparatively little attention is paid to this aspect of human relations. It is assumed that religion is a private matter for each individual and should, therefore, have no direct connection with the political, social aspects of life. This assumption is not justified. Islam being an egalitarian religion, is not just a personal faith, but an all-encompassing codes of values and conduct. Islam is and will be a vital factor in human relations and there is a good ground of hope that it might progressively become more effective in promoting unity and accord rather than continue to be required on the part of religious and political leaders to achieve that goal.

I must conclude by saying that whether peace or war, acts of terrorism are not only condemned in Islam but are also pointedly declared alien to the teachings of Islam which in fact means peace through the submission to the Will of God, the Lord of all human beings. Only through conformity to Divine laws can we hope to achieve the ideal of a secure world free of terrorism.""
https://www.alislam.org/library/links/00000104.html

7=Please find time to read the perfect moral teaching of Islam @
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Philosophy_of_the_Teachings_of_Islam
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Philosophy-of-Teachings-of-Islam.pdf

Thanks.

 

[Looncall]

Peace be on you.
1=World is in the hands of general corrupt behaviour. Pick up any field, you will find it.

2=War has become industry.
http://stopwar.org.uk/news/good-for...-biggest-arms-dealers-exploit-remembrance-day


3= They need guises to have wars. World wars caused unprecedented loss but no religion was behind those.

4= Their is a great role of greedy, non-righteous, low I.Q, clergies and mullahs, who become toys at the hands of international manipulators.

5= "" A very important question which relates to the propagation of all divine messages. It relates to the instrument of propagation Adherents of almost all religions, as they move away in time from the source, are invariably known to have employed coercion either to keep people within the fold of their religion, or to convert others into their faith. But according to the Holy Quran, this in no way reflects upon their religion's attitude to coercion. No religion at its source has ever permitted the use of force in any form whatsoever. In fact all religions have been made targets of coercion, and no efforts were spared by their opponents to arrest the growth of religions at their source and to annihilate them completely. Every time a new prophet came, attempts were invariably made by the enemies to suppress his message through the use of force and merciless persecution. It is the most tragic irony therefore that of all the books, the Holy Quran is singled out today as proponent of the employment of coercion for the sake of the spread of its message. Even greater tragedy lies in the fact that it is the Muslim clergy itself which loudly propounds this view, blatantly attributing it to the Holy Quran.

The Holy Quran, it should be remembered, is the only Divine book which absolves all the prophets of the world, wherever and in whichever age they were born, of the crime of coercion in relation to the spread of their message. Hence it is inconceivable that the Quran should present its Holy Prophet (sa) as the harbinger of an era of bloodshed in the name of peace, and hatred in the name of love of God. This is no place to engage in intricate polemical discussions, so this brief introduction should suffice here. According to the Quran, the Holy War, called Jihad, is in reality a holy campaign which uses the help of the Quran to bring about a spiritual revolution in the world.

• 
  Fight against them by means Of it (the Quran) a great fight Surah Al-Furqan (Ch. 25, V,53)

These are the very words of the Quran which throw light on the nature of Jihad. It must be fought by means of the Quran and the Quranic message alone. Again, to tame one's rebellious nature into complete submission to God is another form of Jihad which is in fact the greater Jihad, according to the Holy Prophet of Islam. On returning from a battle, he is reported to have said:

• 
  We are returning from the lesser Jihad to the greater Jihad.4

Of course, defensive war is permitted only on the condition that the enemies initiate hostilities and raise sword against a weak, defenceless people for having committed the only crime of declaring that God is their Lord. All offensive wars according to Islam are unholy.''"
https://www.alislam.org/books/study-of-islam/jihad.html


6= ""The presentation of Islam as a crude and barbaric religion which gives itself the right to cause unwarranted human and material suffering and destruction under the guise of Divine authority, is not the kind of Islam we find in the Holy Quran and in the precepts of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him!)

7:57; 11:86; 29:37)Mischief and wickedness are condemned in several other verses and Muslims are commanded to work wholly for peace.

Islam draws attention to factors which tend to disturb or destroy peace and order, and deprecates them. Domination of one group by another in the domestic sphere, or of one people by another in the international sphere is a potent cause of disturbance of peace and is therefore strongly condemned. Economic exploitation of one people or country by another inevitably leads to domination by the exploiters, and develops into a potential threat to peace. The Holy Quran prohibits such exploitation and an economy based on exploitation cannot be beneficial in its consequences, nor can it endure.

Islam visualizes an association of strong and stable states allied together in the pursuance of peace, freedom of conscience and the promotion of human welfare. Treaties or covenants between nations may have to be drawn up which should be done in a straightforward language and should not be evaded or repudiated under the temptation of securing some advantage. In case of difficulties and disputes, it is the duty of Muslims to bring about a peaceful settlement and adjustment.

The Holy Quran teaches that God has sent His revelation to all people from time to time. Many of prophets of the Old Testament are mentioned by name and so is Jesus who with other prophets is honoured and revered by all Muslims. Indeed, the Quran requires belief in the truth of all these prophets. Islam is thus unique and distinct in requiring an affirmation in all prophets wherever they appeared and therefore it seeks to bring about reconciliation between the followers of different faiths and to establish a basis of respect and honour among them. The Quran says:

Surely, those who believe and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - whichever party from among these truly believes in ALLAH and the Last Day and does good deeds, shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon then nor shall they grieve (2:63)

The same message is repeated in 5:70. The basic unity of the followers of all faiths is emphatically stressed in the Holy Quran and the creation of discord and disunity by terrorism or otherwise has no place in Islam.

In the domain of international relations, religion and inter-religious relations occupy an important position. Unfortunately, comparatively little attention is paid to this aspect of human relations. It is assumed that religion is a private matter for each individual and should, therefore, have no direct connection with the political, social aspects of life. This assumption is not justified. Islam being an egalitarian religion, is not just a personal faith, but an all-encompassing codes of values and conduct. Islam is and will be a vital factor in human relations and there is a good ground of hope that it might progressively become more effective in promoting unity and accord rather than continue to be required on the part of religious and political leaders to achieve that goal.

I must conclude by saying that whether peace or war, acts of terrorism are not only condemned in Islam but are also pointedly declared alien to the teachings of Islam which in fact means peace through the submission to the Will of God, the Lord of all human beings. Only through conformity to Divine laws can we hope to achieve the ideal of a secure world free of terrorism.""
https://www.alislam.org/library/links/00000104.html

7=Please find time to read the perfect moral teaching of Islam @
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Philosophy_of_the_Teachings_of_Islam
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Philosophy-of-Teachings-of-Islam.pdf

Thanks.

So, why do the actions of muslim societies not correspond to what you describe? These days, there is plenty of coercion in isla.

 

[rusra02]

There are many examples of this. Here's ISIS (horrifically), taking sex slaves based on Islamic scripture:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/14/w...t&contentID=WhatsNext&src=recg&pgtype=article

But we see Christians behaving badly as well. Denying condoms to AIDs torn Africa, shielding pedophiles from prosecution, denying climate change, and on and on.

If the perpetrators of these actions relied on old books that weren't in vogue, they'd get a tiny fraction of the support they get. ISIS's recruitment activities are empowered because they can so easily use Islamic scripture as marketing material. This would be much harder if ISIS was trying to use a 1400 year old book that no one ever heard of.

Coupled with the fact that most of scripture is horribly flawed from moral and ethical perspectives, it strikes me that scripture is a LOT more trouble than it's worth.

Why do folks keep defending their scripture?

p.s. Please note that I'm not wrapping "religion" into the question, in this thread I'm trying to keep scripture separate and distinct from religion.

What you ascribe to "Christians" , that is "Denying condoms to AIDs torn Africa, shielding pedophiles from prosecution, denying climate change, and on and on." is not based on what the Bible teaches. If the Quran supports child rape, that is something Islam must explain.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There are many examples of this.

And untold examples of the opposite. Thanks for sharing.

 

[ether-ore]

There are many examples of this. Here's ISIS (horrifically), taking sex slaves based on Islamic scripture:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/14/w...t&contentID=WhatsNext&src=recg&pgtype=article

But we see Christians behaving badly as well. Denying condoms to AIDs torn Africa, shielding pedophiles from prosecution, denying climate change, and on and on.

If the perpetrators of these actions relied on old books that weren't in vogue, they'd get a tiny fraction of the support they get. ISIS's recruitment activities are empowered because they can so easily use Islamic scripture as marketing material. This would be much harder if ISIS was trying to use a 1400 year old book that no one ever heard of.

Coupled with the fact that most of scripture is horribly flawed from moral and ethical perspectives, it strikes me that scripture is a LOT more trouble than it's worth.

Why do folks keep defending their scripture?

p.s. Please note that I'm not wrapping "religion" into the question, in this thread I'm trying to keep scripture separate and distinct from religion.

It is not possible as far as I am concerned to separate scripture from religion since the latter is based on the former. I consider it a mistake to lump all Christians together. The doctrinal beliefs within the umbrella of the name "Christian" are much too diverse for such a generalization. My own non acceptance of global warming, in terms of it being man made, has nothing to do with scripture. I just don't happen to believe there is conclusive evidence that global warming is man made. Some "scientists" say one thing and others say something else. I don't accept the notion that the science is settled. Scripture does say that there will be more thunder and lightnings, more tornadoes and hurricanes, more earthquakes, more oceans heaving themselves beyond their bounds (as in more tsunamis) in the last days, but it says little about the cause. I believe these things will (and are) happening. I just don't believe they are man made.

 

[DawudTalut]

So, why do the actions of muslim societies not correspond to what you describe? These days, there is plenty of coercion in isla.

Peace be on you.
Please allow to answer this question and associated promised solution.

1- The evolution of religion started at Hadhrat Adam (peace be on him).

2- The divine message continued to increase in scope till it was perfected with the advent of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him).

3- In his life time, the ways and means were not fully developed for the spread of message worldwide, yet the world was to become global village, it was destined to be so in latter days era of 1000 years / the current era.

4- He (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) prophesied in detail that in latter days, his believers would become weak........This decline has become much visible in current time when clergies in Muslim societies have failed to play their role and instead they are taking more interest in power seeking with arm conflicts. There are plenty of people out there to seek the opportunity. The result is killing of innocent Muslims and non Muslims at various places.

5- There were two aspects:
i) Message was yet to reach to the whole world.
ii)- Those who were to take the message to the world themselves became weak. A renowned muslim poet Hali griefly said in this era:

Neither their power remained, nor respect
Left them, the company of their prestige and wealth.


Knowledge and skill, one by one, from them, departed
Their excellences, stage by stage, erased.


Neither the Deen (the Way), nor Islam is left
Only the name of Islam is left

6- The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) had told the remedy for this problem in latter days. He prophesied that an ardent devotee of his (s.a.w.) would bring back the faith from al-Thuraiyyah (Pleiades). It is a parable; it meant, faith would become weak and that man would revive it. The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) called that man Esa-nabiullah and also Mahdi.

7- In the religious history, something of similar order previously had happened.. For the revival when Jesus (a.s.) appeared, he was asked where the Elijah was? He said, it was John the Baptist. ....In fact, (to us) the prophecy of coming of Prophet Elijah a.s. was actually a metaphoric message and it actually meant someone with the properties of Elijah was to come before coming of Jesus...............Now Jesus rides the same boat! His name has been in a prophecy for the revival of Islam. Holy Quran has mentioned his circle of duty [rasulan elaa bani Israel] (a Prophet for children of Israel). Thus, in the light of previous similar prophecy for Elijah and this constraint that he was only for children of Israel, it is very obvious that prophecy of again coming of Hadhrat Esa (Jesus a.s.) is a metaphor and has deeper meanings.



8- In the prophecy of Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him), the reviver of faith is called / titled Esa-nabiullah and Mahdi. It means:
i) The Revivor will heal by spirituality i.e. by prayers attention and will use no force.
ii) His being nabiullah (Prophet of Allah) will not interfere with the Finality of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.), as the reviver has not brought any new teaching, is his subservient and lost in his love. [This spiritual phenomenon is cited is Quran when it said that Bai'at of Holy Prophet is Bai'at of Allah ----Obviously both are NOT equal, otherwise it would amount to Shirk, It is a metaphor that Holy Prophet s.a.w. is being spiritually lost in Beloved Allah]
iii) Mahdi means the person who is guided by God. This means the reviver will get revelation from God to learn real meaning of Holy Quran and the way to guide the followers to take them to success and glory and to take the message of peace and love of Holy Quran to the whole world, to each human.


9-The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) also foretold the restart of Khilafat on the precept of Prophethood. He clearly said about a Khilafat right after him (s.a.w.), then coming of kings and then again start of Khilafat on the precept of Prophethood (alaa minhaj alnabuwat). This prophecy is about continuation of services of Promised Massiah and Mahdi (a.s.) via Khilafat so that the purpose of Holy Prophet (peace and blessing of Allah be on him) is achieved.


10- The claim of someone that he is from God and God speaks to him is not a small thing. The towering impotance of it is mentioned in Holy Quran (near the end of surah Al-Haqqah chapter 69) which was revealed to the Most-Beloved-of- Allah human and Chief of all Prophets, Final Law bearing Prophet, the Chosen one, Muhammad (s.a.w.) :
From Surah Al-Haqqah:
(It is) a revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
And if he had forged (and attributed) any sayings to Us,
We would surely have seized him by the Right Hand.;


Thus God does not spare the one who uses his name falsely;The Right Hand of God has helped the Claimant, the Promised Messiah and Mahdi and his Khilafat (5 th Khilafat continues by the Grace of Allah) to take the real peaceful message of Holy Quran to all countries of the world officially. World needs this message. Just as examples, in the recent times, 5 th Holy Khalifah took the peaceful and Justice-ful message of Allah to US Capitol Hills (Law-makers of Congress and Senate), German Armed Forces Headquarter and European Union Parliament. [Ref: wwwDOTalislamDOTorg]. He wrote letters to world leaders asking them to work together for peace in world and avoid a possible world war. He wrote to leaders of USA, Canada, UK, Germany, France, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Israel and China. [Ref: wwwDOTreviewofreligionsDOTorg/6230/letters-sent-to-world-leaders]


Please remember these and other numerous services for peace are being done in the time when The Religion of Peace, Islam, is being equated with terrorism.


11- These are times when one has to make a bold, educated and learned choice; either continue to slide downward individually and country-wise or wisely accept the promised Call of Revival. There is no compulsion, things are open. Open is the gate to prayers to Allah so that one can selflessly pray to Allah, invoke lots of salutation on Holy Prophet (peace and blessing of Allah be on him) and seek Allah's guidance in this matter of revival of faith.-- Allah still Answers.

 

[icehorse]

And untold examples of the opposite. Thanks for sharing.

False equivalence.

Again Jay, this thread is about scripture. We are told by the religious - in words and actions - that we're meant to hold scripture in the highest esteem. Scripture is simply not up to the task. If you want to recast scripture as simply one of many historical works of fiction, then I'd accept your idea. But clearly, whether or not YOU treat scripture any which way, the world puts scripture on a pedestal.

In other words, given the esteem people give to scripture it ought to be friggin' perfect. Given it's position, it's laughable to settle for the idea that "scripture is only sometimes dead wrong". IT doesn't EVER get to be dead wrong. Not ever.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

In other words, given the esteem people give to scripture it ought to be friggin' perfect.

Such is your mantra. It's as shallow as it is pretentious.

 

[icehorse]

Such is your mantra. It's as shallow as it is pretentious.

My stance is a reaction to the many folks who talk and behave as if their scripture IS perfect. Jay, if you don't hold that opinion of your scripture then I'm not talking to you. Alternatively, you could be clear that you're speaking for those who do hold such views?

If neither is the case, then you're simply attempting to obfuscate.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

My stance is a reaction to the many folks who talk and behave as if their scripture IS perfect. J

It's called "the tail wagging the dog." Have fun with that ...

 

[icehorse]

Jay (he says with continued graciousness),

In the real world, the tail often wags the dog. ISIS is a great example. As you well know there are many others.

Is it your contention that it's rare for people to justify their behaviors based on what scripture tells them? Or are you saying that when those people say that, you don't take them at their word?

 

[icehorse]

Hi DawudTalut,

Over the course of Islam's 1400 year history, it has most often been a religion of conquest. This history of conquest seems completely consistent with Islamic scripture. I appreciate your orientation, but I think you're fighting against history AND against many of the messages in the scripture itself.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Jay (he says with continued graciousness),

In the real world, the tail often wags the dog.

This fact renders your barking no less biased and tiresome.

 

[icehorse]

This fact renders your barking no less biased and tiresome.

Please, oh Jayhawker, show me my bias. Oh, and while you're at it, demonstrate that you're coming from a bias-free stance.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

There are many examples of this. Here's ISIS (horrifically), taking sex slaves based on Islamic scripture:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/14/w...t&contentID=WhatsNext&src=recg&pgtype=article

But we see Christians behaving badly as well. Denying condoms to AIDs torn Africa, shielding pedophiles from prosecution, denying climate change, and on and on.

If the perpetrators of these actions relied on old books that weren't in vogue, they'd get a tiny fraction of the support they get. ISIS's recruitment activities are empowered because they can so easily use Islamic scripture as marketing material. This would be much harder if ISIS was trying to use a 1400 year old book that no one ever heard of.

Coupled with the fact that most of scripture is horribly flawed from moral and ethical perspectives, it strikes me that scripture is a LOT more trouble than it's worth.

Why do folks keep defending their scripture?

p.s. Please note that I'm not wrapping "religion" into the question, in this thread I'm trying to keep scripture separate and distinct from religion.

There would be no problems of any significance in the world if people acknowledged the human spirit is real on a subjective basis. To acknowledge each others emotions is fundamental for civilization, and they cannot be measured, so only subjectivity works to acknowledge them.

What is horribly flawed is atheism, materialism and the like, which are expressions of the sin make good and evil into a matter of fact. When good and evil is made into a fact, then subjectivity is avoided. And this is what atheists and materialists do, as seen with communism and nazism. Communism and nazism are the biggest evils of history and they are Western inventions. Which is odd, because democracy is established in the West. And what new atheists are cooking up now with their wholesale rejection of any subjectivity, bizarre notions of rejecting faith altogether, as if to cut a piece of humanity from human beings, is a bigger evil than any other evil in the world currently.

 

[DawudTalut]

..... I appreciate your orientation, but I think you're fighting against history AND against many of the messages in the scripture itself.

Peace be on you.
Ahmadiyya Muslims believe and are proving by their continuous conduct since 1889 that we are understanding the right message of Holy Quran by the grace of God.

""Thomas Arnold’s observation on the subject is significant. He said: ‘Islam has gained its greatest and most lasting missionary triumphs in times and places in which its political power has been weakest.”16 Maulana Maududi probably never read the history of Islam in Bengal, Malaysia or Indonesia. He was so enthralled by the Turko-Afghan and Mughal conquests that he never had time to note that the largest Muslim country in the world, Indonesia, never had a Muslim conqueror—that there was no fighting nor any violence there. That was the case also in Malaysia.

The Prophet sa was obviously innocent. He took up the sword only in self-defense and only when oppression became unbearable. Here is what an objective Sikh has to say on the subject:

In the beginning the Prophet’s sa enemies made life difficult for him and his followers. So the Prophet sa asked his followers to leave their homes and migrate to Medina. He preferred migration to fighting his own people, but when oppression went beyond the pale of tolerance he took up his sword in self-defense. Those who believe religion can be spread by force are fools who neither know the ways of religion nor the ways of the world. They are proud of this belief because they are a long, long way away from the Truth.""
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/mna/chapter_2.html


The coming of Promised Messiah Mahdi is part of Islamic believe, and according to Ahmadiyya Muslims he has come in 1889. He said:
""I have brought you a commandment which is that Jihad with the sword has been ended but the Jihad of the purification of your spirits must continue to be waged. I say this not on my own but in order to proclaim the design of God. Reflect on the hadees of Bukhari wherein it is stated that the Promised Messiah would put an end to fighting for the faith. Accordingly I command those who have joined my ranks that they should discard all such notions. They should purify their hearts and foster their mercy and should have sympathy for the afflicted. They should spread peace on the earth, for this would cause their faith to spread. They should not wonder how this would come about. As God Almighty has utilized the elements and all earthly means for the purpose of bringing about new inventions to serve human needs like mechanical locomotion, etc., in the same way He will put His angels to work for the fulfillment of spiritual needs through heavenly signs, without the intervention of human agencies and there will appear many flashes of light whereby the eyes of multitudes will be opened.""
https://www.alislam.org/books/essence/chap9/chap9.html

It is the only the matter of time to see which Islam will survive and spread? -- Islam of terrorists or The International Phenomenon of True Islam under true Khilafat [the Islam explained by Hazrat Promised Messiah Mahdi (a.s.) - the servant of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.)]

 

[Augustus]

Coupled with the fact that most of scripture is horribly flawed from moral and ethical perspectives, it strikes me that scripture is a LOT more trouble than it's worth.

Why do folks keep defending their scripture?

To say scripture is more trouble than it is worth would require a comparison between societies that use religious scripture as a fundamental guiding principle in their laws, ethics and behaviours and those that do not use scripture as a fundamental guiding principle in their laws, ethics and behaviours. This would have to take in the good and the bad from each alternative rather than cherry picking only the good.

The problem is that non-scripture based societies have a lot of blood on their hands from the Nazis and Commies. You can't take the 'scripture causes problems' stance without also accepting the 'scripture would have prevented these problems' stance.

It is fair game to criticise specific actions based on scripture whenever they occur, and there are very many of these to choose from, but taking a blanket critical approach to 'scripture' in general requires a lot of special pleading before it seems to have any objective merit.

People often criticise religion (based on its scripture) for its inherent conservatism acting as a brake on societal 'progress', however they often ignore that this is also a strength of religion when it prevents the wrong kind of 'progress'.

 

[icehorse]

Hi DawudTalut,

As populations grow and weapons become more powerful, we must all converge on Universal Human Rights. Until now, Islam tends strongly AGAINST human rights - this is true right up the level of the OIC. I hope for all of us that Islam either undergoes serious reformation, or that it shrinks in the world.

Augustus,

Is your Nazi and commie comparison for real, or is this just a gambit? This particular argument doesn't hold up to even the most basic scrutiny, do we have to go over it again? (Think about how religion, fascism, and secularism compare to each other - or don't - when it comes to dogma.)

As far as scripture's "good influences", wouldn't it be the case that purer, more consistent moral teachings would do a far better job of helping societies than the seriously flawed scriptures the world is currently saddled with?