Secular Happiness equates to putting on a brave face

[lewisnotmiller]

This is a breakout from another thread, so as not to pollute the topic there...

Link to original : http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/155772-list-things-you-would-find-wrong-4.html#post3546773

Basically, the subject of secular happiness (or lack thereof) was raised. The following post is the one I'll respond to...

You deserve some response. Yes, I am kind of game playing and sounding a bit confusing, admittedly. And taking some liberties.

But, yes, you got it straight, for the most part. I do believe (by and large, not every single incident) that an old person who does not believe in an after life is putting on a brave face when they say “they are happy.” Why? Well first of all, that assumes we are not talking about that moment or that week or month. I am implying “are you happy with your life and existence as it unfolded and goes forward?”

Yup, I understand. That's why I mentioned 'calm'. I'm not a guy who experiences highs and lows, to any great degree. I'm described as laid-back and easygoing, and take the good with the bad.

So let us take you as an example. You say with complete honesty and assurance that you are quite happy and calm. I surely believe you, and I assume that contention is in reference to your life as a whole and what may follow. Here are my points.

The difference between being alive and dead are as profound as it gets. This is why there is such enormous grief and whaling at funerals. For many (surely atheists) they are mostly stricken because they know they will never see their loved one again. And still they can say they are happy?

This is a very monotheistic view of death. One thing we would agree with is that neither of us thinks our opinion changes the truth of the matter. There is a god or there's not, regardless of what we believe. So, for me, I don't ask myself why someone was taken, try to convince myself they are in a better place, wonder about their suffering at the end, or rail at the unfairness of it. Death is not easy, but I deal with it as well as any theists I know, and better than most.

This world is totally overrun with people who are perpetually in a state of suffering, be it impoverished, or sick, or lonely, or mentally frightened. And knowing the condition of nearly all of your fellow man, you can tell me you are happy? I cannot bear to see all these people suffer their whole lives, I can never be happy knowing this.

Just out of interest, does the inverse make sense too?
"This world is full of people who are happy, be it spiritually, or through fulfilled, productive lives. There is joy, and beauty and love in the world. And knowing this, you can tell me you cannot be happy? I cannot focus only on the negatives, and ignore all that is good, and worthy, and beautiful."

Meh...like I said, I go for balance. Over-emphasising negatives is completely redundant. Again, you are looking from a theistic viewpoint. I don't believe in God, don't wonder why things are tough, and appreciate what I have, rather than compare it to some model of perfection which to my mind is in your imagination.

So I contend if you are truly happy then you are selfish. If it does not bother you that you will not ever see those dear to you again and say you are happy, you are not human. I do not understand?

I contend you misunderstand humanity. You add layers to what is evident in the hopes of explaining that which you don't understand. These layers are sometimes effective, and sometimes lead to periods of cognitive dissonance. Why is there suffering in the world? Why is there pain, and death? It's unfair that we don't see those we love after their death. These are all theistic viewpoints. It's not whether they are worthy thoughts, it's more that they are as meaningful to me as wanting x-ray vision would be to you. It's so far from reality you wouldn't even waste a second wishing for it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

This world is totally overrun with people who are perpetually in a state of suffering, be it impoverished, or sick, or lonely, or mentally frightened. And knowing the condition of nearly all of your fellow man, you can tell me you are happy? I cannot bear to see all these people suffer their whole lives, I can never be happy knowing this.

Please don't have children.

 

[Thief]

This is a breakout from another thread, so as not to pollute the topic there...

Link to original : http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...hings-you-would-find-wrong-4.html#post3546773

Basically, the subject of secular happiness (or lack thereof) was raised. The following post is the one I'll respond to...



Yup, I understand. That's why I mentioned 'calm'. I'm not a guy who experiences highs and lows, to any great degree. I'm described as laid-back and easygoing, and take the good with the bad.


This is a very monotheistic view of death. One thing we would agree with is that neither of us thinks our opinion changes the truth of the matter. There is a god or there's not, regardless of what we believe. So, for me, I don't ask myself why someone was taken, try to convince myself they are in a better place, wonder about their suffering at the end, or rail at the unfairness of it. Death is not easy, but I deal with it as well as any theists I know, and better than most.



Just out of interest, does the inverse make sense too?
"This world is full of people who are happy, be it spiritually, or through fulfilled, productive lives. There is joy, and beauty and love in the world. And knowing this, you can tell me you cannot be happy? I cannot focus only on the negatives, and ignore all that is good, and worthy, and beautiful."

Meh...like I said, I go for balance. Over-emphasising negatives is completely redundant. Again, you are looking from a theistic viewpoint. I don't believe in God, don't wonder why things are tough, and appreciate what I have, rather than compare it to some model of perfection which to my mind is in your imagination.


I contend you misunderstand humanity. You add layers to what is evident in the hopes of explaining that which you don't understand. These layers are sometimes effective, and sometimes lead to periods of cognitive dissonance. Why is there suffering in the world? Why is there pain, and death? It's unfair that we don't see those we love after their death. These are all theistic viewpoints. It's not whether they are worthy thoughts, it's more that they are as meaningful to me as wanting x-ray vision would be to you. It's so far from reality you wouldn't even waste a second wishing for it.

Really?.....such confidence!

and your plans for the next life are fixed and firm?

 

[Quagmire]

I'm a theist with no firm convictions about an afterlife: not sure there is one, and no idea what it entails if there is (although I do have a few pet scenarios).

And I'm also fairly certain that I would have no objections if it turned out that there was nothing after this life. How can you complain about nothing?
(Yeah, I know: people do it all the time).

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Really?.....such confidence!

and your plans for the next life are fixed and firm?

I'm not so sure that 'confidence' is the right word, which is kinda my point. Acceptance, perhaps?

My plans for the next life? Are you really going to try and twist my words in that manner? Obviously, I have no plans for the 'next life' since I have no reason to believe there is one, and no concept of what it would entail if it did exist. It makes planning a little problematic.

 

[Me Myself]

I'm a theist with no firm convictions about an afterlife: not sure there is one, and no idea what it entails if there is (although I do have a few pet scenarios).

And I'm also fairly certain that I would have no objections if it turned out that there was nothing after this life. How can you complain about nothing?
(Yeah, I know: people do it all the time).

Complaining being non existent sounds challenging

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I'm a theist with no firm convictions about an afterlife: not sure there is one, and no idea what it entails if there is (although I do have a few pet scenarios).

And I'm also fairly certain that I would have no objections if it turned out that there was nothing after this life. How can you complain about nothing?
(Yeah, I know: people do it all the time).

It struck me as I was writing that I took some pretty horrible liberties. There are, of course, atheists who believe in an afterlife. And there are theists who don't, or are agnostic towards the concept. Apologies to all, it's just very hard to write in an accurate and inclusive manner without becoming a muddled mess. Hopefully the point of what I was saying remains clear, with a nod towards those not fitting my fairly generic stereo-typing of afterlife-belief/non-belief.

 

[Penumbra]

I've juggled numerous afterlife beliefs in my life because I came from a syncretic, liberally theistic background that was open to ideas of heavens and reincarnation and basically whatever else there is. But now for a long time I haven't had any beliefs in any afterlife because I haven't seen any compelling evidence. As far as I know, everyone else in my family pretty firmly believes in an afterlife.

Nonexistence, basically by definition, isn't anything to worry about. I just look at it with the cliche that it'll be like it was before I was born, or more practically I look at it in a similar way to how I look forward to going to sleep after a long day.

The only downside is that a lack of an afterlife seals the deal on injustices and suffering in this life. If a person lives a fairly miserable life and then dies, then yeah, that's pretty sad, and unfortunately not uncommon. If someone gets, say, brutally murdered, then our shared vision of justice has been denied to that person because his or her life was cut short and ended painfully, without anything else.

But dwelling on that doesn't do much. One can just look at life and accept it for what it is, with the good and the bad, the rewards and the risks, the justice and the injustice, the birth and the death, the pleasure and the pain, and to try to be on the positive side of those spectra and to try to assist others in being on the positive side of those spectra.

I don't really think death takes "bravery" in such a view.

 

[Quagmire]

Complaining being non existent sounds challenging

Yeah, but then we have some pretty dedicated whiners out there.

It struck me as I was writing that I took some pretty horrible liberties. There are, of course, atheists who believe in an afterlife. And there are theists who don't, or are agnostic towards the concept. Apologies to all, it's just very hard to write in an accurate and inclusive manner without becoming a muddled mess. Hopefully the point of what I was saying remains clear, with a nod towards those not fitting my fairly generic stereo-typing of afterlife-belief/non-belief.

Not a problem, Lewis.

I was just casting my vote against the idea that a belief in an afterlife is a requirement for happiness.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

I have read this thread, but it makes no sense to me...the title does, though...so I am just responding to that alone and hope this is in any way 'relevant' to the discussion at hand.

My personal beliefs are very limited and secular.

It's not like I am a Christian, where my beliefs are shared by many and I can find advice, comfort and solace in fellowship...

It's not like I am really a Hindu either, because most Hindus (not all) come from the Vaishnava tradition and even Shaivas (like myself) disagree over certain semantics of teachings or faith.

Sometimes, it feels like I am the only one on this planet believing in what I believe in...and yeah, the feeling of that causes isolation, loneliness and despair occasionally.

It also causes frustration, when I am fully aware that 99.9% of people out there are gonna disagree with whatever opinion I opine.

I have often thought about changing my beliefs to 'fit in' with a socially constructed system, but I just can't get over the 'you are selling out' feeling enough to be able to bring myself to do it.

A lot of the time, I just put on a 'brave face' and 'believe in Shiva', whether or not I am actually believing at the time. Deep down I know I love Shiva, but my life isn't a constant representation or reminder of it...maybe I should make it so (it's very difficult).

So, I essentially 'lie to myself', but eventually, I will get to 'believe the lie' so I think it's all good.

Other people often say I am 'deluded', but that is their judgment, it is not mine...to which they say 'yeah, that's how deluded people usually see things' and that only strengthens my resolve. I know I am not 'deluded' so why should it matter if anybody else says I am?

If the whole of society thinks I am insane...well, maybe because I am just not like 'other people', but that doesn't necessarily mean I am crazy because of it...I am just 'crazy' to everybody else because I am purely and plainly 'misunderstood' and that is that.

 

[JiSe]

About the general ideas:

"Putting on a brave face" implies that the feelings of happiness felt by people who don't believe in afterlife are insincere. Or that it is impossible to feel truly happy while accepting that life ends.

Both of these stances fail to understand what it means to be happy. And falls into the true Scotchman category when one tries to define about what one can justifiably feel happy for.

What I'm trying to say here is that happiness is not an objective thing. But a feeling (ie. neurochemical reaction in our brain?) That has evolved to help us live trough our lives, and one could argue that search for it is one of the biggest, and least understood human quests during our lives.

About the specific ideas:

The difference between being alive and dead are as profound as it gets. This is why there is such enormous grief and whaling at funerals. For many (surely atheists) they are mostly stricken because they know they will never see their loved one again. And still they can say they are happy?

This world is totally overrun with people who are perpetually in a state of suffering, be it impoverished, or sick, or lonely, or mentally frightened. And knowing the condition of nearly all of your fellow man, you can tell me you are happy? I cannot bear to see all these people suffer their whole lives, I can never be happy knowing this.

This is one of the biggest traps I feel there is. To cradle oneself with beliefs so one can hope to win fight that is unwinnable (Death), and leave a fight that could be won (elevate the suffering of others) to god/afterlife.
One of the greatest human tragedies is our ability to feel truly happy by either circumventing these issues, or ignoring them. If we couldn't we would have many more people focused on helping others instead of running in circles trying to feed the loop of perceived happiness.

 

[Sunstone]

If it does not bother you that you will not ever see those dear to you again and say you are happy, you are not human.

Love wasn't made for wimps, dude.