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Secular Morality and Meaning

idav

Being
Premium Member
My inspiration for starting this thread is from another regarding where atheists and other secularists get their morality from. For the record, I have stopped calling myself a Secular Humanist because I'm not satisfied with secular ethics.

The problem is that I see no purpose or meaning to life from a secular viewpoint. If we are just the sum of our cells, then what's the purpose to life? There is no objective purpose or meaning as far as I can tell. Some might say that the purpose is to be happy. But if I was asked questions like 1.) why bother to be happy? and 2.) what difference would it make if I was happy or not?, I wouldn't know what to say.

I like the thought of being happy. I want to be happy. I imagine most people do. But as for why I should want to be happy or why I ought to be happy, I have no idea. If someone asked me, I would be completely lost for words. I really have no clue. If life is ultimately meaningless and exists for no purpose, why attach meaning or purpose where it previously didn't exist? What's the point? What difference does it make? Why bother? Is it because it makes for a harmonious and peaceful society? If so, then the question I would ask is: why care about harmony and peace? If some folks reply because they're better than other alternatives, the question becomes: why care about which alternatives are better than other alternatives?

In the end, I find Secular Humanism not much better than the Evangelical Christian fundamentalism I cheerfully renounced nine years ago!

For Secular Humanists, where do you think I'm going wrong?
When you go by the assumption that all people need to be happy then morality flies out the window. Everyone being happy would include harmful behavior. Why someone should be happy is because people want to be however understanding what happiness is would be more important. Whether someones happiness is eating chocolate covered strawberries all day or having sex with a multitude of people all day doesn't really get into whether that might actually be harmful or not. We know the chemicals needed in our brain for happiness so it would be no different if we just pumped the proper doses into the brain then it wouldnt matter at that point what was happening in our environment.

One of the more important things to consider would be 'true' happiness. Sure there are lots of things that can make us happy but true happiness for any individual would be achieved with a healthy mind and body and science can tell us with great precision what that might entail. We know that some people might like to be harmed gaining the endorphins for happiness but science can tell us there would surely be less harmful ways of getting these endorphins and adrenaline spikes.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My inspiration for starting this thread is from another regarding where atheists and other secularists get their morality from. For the record, I have stopped calling myself a Secular Humanist because I'm not satisfied with secular ethics.

The problem is that I see no purpose or meaning to life from a secular viewpoint. If we are just the sum of our cells, then what's the purpose to life? There is no objective purpose or meaning as far as I can tell. Some might say that the purpose is to be happy. But if I was asked questions like 1.) why bother to be happy? and 2.) what difference would it make if I was happy or not?, I wouldn't know what to say.

I like the thought of being happy. I want to be happy. I imagine most people do. But as for why I should want to be happy or why I ought to be happy, I have no idea. If someone asked me, I would be completely lost for words. I really have no clue. If life is ultimately meaningless and exists for no purpose, why attach meaning or purpose where it previously didn't exist? What's the point? What difference does it make? Why bother? Is it because it makes for a harmonious and peaceful society? If so, then the question I would ask is: why care about harmony and peace? If some folks reply because they're better than other alternatives, the question becomes: why care about which alternatives are better than other alternatives?

In the end, I find Secular Humanism not much better than the Evangelical Christian fundamentalism I cheerfully renounced nine years ago!

For Secular Humanists, where do you think I'm going wrong?
For one, I don't think asking meaning or purpose is the right question. I think asking what is valuable is the right question.

So far, I haven't seen any proposed metaphysical frameworks that I would label as giving meaning or purpose. Most religions that one might put forth as examples, I discard as not having interesting meaning or purpose when critically examined. I think meaning and purpose are nebulous concepts, but if one does prefer to use those words, then secular moral systems often encourage obtaining, defining, and expressing subjective meaning.

Happiness is not the goal of life. Life is driven to survive and reproduce, not because it intelligently seeks it, but instead because life that is best at continuing and flourishing is the life that remains existent. Feelings such as happiness are tools that many forms of animal life have developed to reach that end result of survival and reproduction.

Nonetheless, because they have reasoning capabilities, most humans recognize that happiness is good in and of itself. It is an axiom that it is inherently desirable, not because it leads to something else, but because it is enjoyable and pleasant by definition. "Should" doesn't factor into it. You don't need a reason to be happy, other than that happiness is inherently desirable.

Secular humanism, and most reasonable ethical systems in general, are focused on achieving and spreading happiness as an inherently worthwhile thing.

So it boils down to utilitarianism along the lines of Bentham and Mill?
There are secular systems of morality other than utilitarianism. The three broadest categories are consequentialism (utilitarnianism), deontology, and virtue ethics. Practically, most moral systems include elements from all three, and include elements that are not easily categorized.
 

Matthew78

aspiring biblical scholar
When you go by the assumption that all people need to be happy then morality flies out the window.

Don't get me wrong-I'm not saying that all people need to be happy. I'm describing one of the moral theories that I have been reading about. I personally don't subscribe to the view that we all need to be happy, only that most of us seem to want it.

Everyone being happy would include harmful behavior.

I agree; it disturbs me that some people get a sickening pleasure from inflicting pain on others and being cruel.

Why someone should be happy is because people want to be however understanding what happiness is would be more important. Whether someones happiness is eating chocolate covered strawberries all day or having sex with a multitude of people all day doesn't really get into whether that might actually be harmful or not. We know the chemicals needed in our brain for happiness so it would be no different if we just pumped the proper doses into the brain then it wouldnt matter at that point what was happening in our environment.

I think I understand what you're saying here.

One of the more important things to consider would be 'true' happiness. Sure there are lots of things that can make us happy but true happiness for any individual would be achieved with a healthy mind and body and science can tell us with great precision what that might entail. We know that some people might like to be harmed gaining the endorphins for happiness but science can tell us there would surely be less harmful ways of getting these endorphins and adrenaline spikes.

Just to play devil's advocate here, if someone asked you why bother or why care about "true happiness", how would you respond to that person?
 

Matthew78

aspiring biblical scholar
For one, I don't think asking meaning or purpose is the right question. I think asking what is valuable is the right question.

But that would suppose, right, that there is a point in assigning value in the first place? We must first decide that assigning value is a meaningful and worthwhile human activity before asking what it is that we value. Do you agree?

So far, I haven't seen any proposed metaphysical frameworks that I would label as giving meaning or purpose. Most religions that one might put forth as examples, I discard as not having interesting meaning or purpose when critically examined. I think meaning and purpose are nebulous concepts, but if one does prefer to use those words, then secular moral systems often encourage obtaining, defining, and expressing subjective meaning.

Secular moral systems would then be begging the question with regards to assigning subjective meaning and value. I don't see how it they couldn't.

Happiness is not the goal of life. Life is driven to survive and reproduce, not because it intelligently seeks it, but instead because life that is best at continuing and flourishing is the life that remains existent. Feelings such as happiness are tools that many forms of animal life have developed to reach that end result of survival and reproduction.

I don't disagree with you. Life is not teleological in the sense that it deliberately or willfully seeks out goals to strive for. In fact, I think some people are wrongly critical of evolutionary biology because they confuse evolution with progress. I have no reason to believe that life exists for a purpose or that it's part of a grand plan. If my wording suggested that I believed otherwise, I apologize for any confusion my wording might have caused.

My struggle is with my own life. I'm not sure what point there is to assigning purpose or worth to my life. I don't see the point to happiness or morality, to be frank. I struggle with apathy and depression.

Nonetheless, because they have reasoning capabilities, most humans recognize that happiness is good in and of itself. It is an axiom that it is inherently desirable, not because it leads to something else, but because it is enjoyable and pleasant by definition. "Should" doesn't factor into it. You don't need a reason to be happy, other than that happiness is inherently desirable.

This is what I struggle to understand. How is happiness an inherently desirable end?

Secular humanism, and most reasonable ethical systems in general, are focused on achieving and spreading happiness as an inherently worthwhile thing.

I agree but I can't help thinking ethical systems can't escape the guilt of question-begging by assuming happiness is inherently worthwhile and deserving of spreading as a goal to be achieved.

There are secular systems of morality other than utilitarianism. The three broadest categories are consequentialism (utilitarnianism), deontology, and virtue ethics. Practically, most moral systems include elements from all three, and include elements that are not easily categorized.

I'm no stranger to ethics :) I've read Aristotle, Kant, Mill, and Simone De Beauvoir. Facinating bunch although De Beauvoir's book The Ethics of Ambiguity was sheer torture for me to read!
 

Amill

Apikoros
Okay, so you are suggesting some kind of utilitarianism probably holds the answer? I can accept that living organisms are wired to tend towards what is pleasurable and avoid what is painful but this would only answer the question of why we tend to be moral, as I see it, not why we ought to be moral.
I don't think there's a reason we "ought" to be moral or good to other people/organisms. There's simply consequences for interacting with your environment in a way that causes other organisms pleasure as well as pain. Just do what you want to do.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Just to play devil's advocate here, if someone asked you why bother or why care about "true happiness", how would you respond to that person?
This seems to be your basic issue. Happiness is a goal that we normally all seek. It is a biological drive that guides our behavior. The real question for me and perhaps most others is why you would not want to be happy. Can you explain that?
 

blackout

Violet.
I personally prefer pragmatism and empathy
to "morality".

How would you feel if I told you they are supposed to be the same thing?

That may work for you,
(which is fine)
but for me,
"proper behavior" and "conformity to the rules of right conduct"
do not point to personal pragmatism and empathy.
They point to rules one is to adhere to/follow,
because SOMEONE (else) says so.
Be it 'God'/church/religion or government or societal/pier pressure.
Does the government have some special insight into
what IS intrinsically "proper behavior" or "right conduct"?
Or do THEY define and dictate the "terms"?. :yes:

Church and 'God', I will not even get into. :rolleyes:

The word morality is loaded for me,
like a potato might be,
full of things other people put there
that i might find distasteful.

I for one, will never be able to seperate the word "morality"
from the Roman Catholic Church.
And BOTH leave far more than a bad taste in my mouth.

As I said,
I prefer personal pragmatism and genuine empathy.
But, this is MY way.
Follow My Own heart and pragmatic wisdom,
is the letter of My law.
 
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blackout

Violet.
I prefer the term Ethics to Morality
in a secular context,
as it is defined as moral Philosophy.

This at least points to the notion
that there is no intrinsically "correct" "proper behavior" or "right conduct",
but only ones that WE
as Human Beings philosophise
and construct.
and re'construct,
as we continue to re'evaluate.

Morality in Religion tends to be a notion
of HARD rights and wrongs
passed on by an unchanging God
who EXPECTS certain behavior.

I don't want to feel as if I've simply replaced God
with Government, or Family, or Social pressure.

Every'ONE has a right
to THEIR OWN philosophy.

Of course, if you act against the law of the land,
in accord with your own philosophy....
you can expect the law to come down on you.

This is where personal pragmatism comes in.
ie, "Do what's best for you".

Does that count as a morality for you I wonder? ;)
 

FlyingTeaPot

Irrational Rationalist. Educated Fool.
For the record, I have stopped calling myself a Secular Humanist because I'm not satisfied with secular ethics.
what about secular ethics do you find odious?
The problem is that I see no purpose or meaning to life from a secular viewpoint.
It doesn't necessarily follow that you have to fantasize to find meaning. I find truth to be more satisfying than anything religion has to offer. I think that we find our own subjective purposes.
If we are just the sum of our cells, then what's the purpose to life? There is no objective purpose or meaning as far as I can tell.
there is no objective purpose to life IMO. It is all subjective. I find meaning in discovering new things everyday. This conversation with you makes my life more fulfilling and meaningful.
Some might say that the purpose is to be happy. But if I was asked questions like 1.) why bother to be happy? and 2.) what difference would it make if I was happy or not?, I wouldn't know what to say.
I think contributions to humanity is the greatest purpose one can achieve. I think that can make your life happier and fulfilling. We are social creatures and find happiness in empathizing and sympathizing with our fellow humans. We are programmed to be happy. Why bother not being happy?

I like the thought of being happy. I want to be happy. I imagine most people do. But as for why I should want to be happy or why I ought to be happy, I have no idea. If someone asked me, I would be completely lost for words. I really have no clue.
Why shouldn't you be happy? You have a wonderful life and have the ability to give gifts to your species. I think that can make one happy.
If life is ultimately meaningless and exists for no purpose, why attach meaning or purpose where it previously didn't exist? What's the point? What difference does it make? Why bother? Is it because it makes for a harmonious and peaceful society? If so, then the question I would ask is: why care about harmony and peace? If some folks reply because they're better than other alternatives, the question becomes: why care about which alternatives are better than other alternatives?
Evolution.
In the end, I find Secular Humanism not much better than the Evangelical Christian fundamentalism I cheerfully renounced nine years ago!

For Secular Humanists, where do you think I'm going wrong?
I don't think you are going wrong. Happiness and other emotions are a byproduct of evolution. I recommend The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins.
 
FlyingTeaPot said:
I don't think you are going wrong. Happiness and other emotions are a byproduct of evolution. I recommend The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins.

The Selfish Gene is indeed an excellent book by an excellent scientist. Good recommendation.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
My inspiration for starting this thread is from another regarding where atheists and other secularists get their morality from. For the record, I have stopped calling myself a Secular Humanist because I'm not satisfied with secular ethics.

The problem is that I see no purpose or meaning to life from a secular viewpoint. If we are just the sum of our cells, then what's the purpose to life? There is no objective purpose or meaning as far as I can tell. Some might say that the purpose is to be happy. But if I was asked questions like 1.) why bother to be happy? and 2.) what difference would it make if I was happy or not?, I wouldn't know what to say.
That's a fine response. Keep in mind that it works just as well for, "Why bother to be unhappy?"

I like the thought of being happy. I want to be happy. I imagine most people do. But as for why I should want to be happy or why I ought to be happy, I have no idea. If someone asked me, I would be completely lost for words. I really have no clue. If life is ultimately meaningless and exists for no purpose, why attach meaning or purpose where it previously didn't exist? What's the point? What difference does it make? Why bother? Is it because it makes for a harmonious and peaceful society? If so, then the question I would ask is: why care about harmony and peace? If some folks reply because they're better than other alternatives, the question becomes: why care about which alternatives are better than other alternatives?
Equally, why not bother?

In the end, I find Secular Humanism not much better than the Evangelical Christian fundamentalism I cheerfully renounced nine years ago!

For Secular Humanists, where do you think I'm going wrong?
Every question has its antithesis or counter: for every "why should I" there's a "why shouldn't I"; for every "what should it mean" there's a "why should it mean something." The answer then doesn't lie in answering those questions, but in taking a step back and examining ourselves --individually, and humanity --as questioner.

Know that if you've got no answer, you're on your way.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Just to play devil's advocate here, if someone asked you why bother or why care about "true happiness", how would you respond to that person?
We can probably live a lie and be perfectly happy and content but we don't have to settle for that and we shouldn't.
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
The purpose of my life is to love my Gwynnies - and yes, it is pathetic and absurd, and she's my god get yer own... I don't see the connection with morality. Absolute morality is absolute fail, secular morality is absolutely unfeasible; vector morality is in development.

The funny thing about my absurdity is that if nothing else, we can worship each other; and love matters. ;)
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
My inspiration for starting this thread is from another regarding where atheists and other secularists get their morality from. For the record, I have stopped calling myself a Secular Humanist because I'm not satisfied with secular ethics.

The problem is that I see no purpose or meaning to life from a secular viewpoint. If we are just the sum of our cells, then what's the purpose to life? There is no objective purpose or meaning as far as I can tell. Some might say that the purpose is to be happy. But if I was asked questions like 1.) why bother to be happy? and 2.) what difference would it make if I was happy or not?, I wouldn't know what to say.

I like the thought of being happy. I want to be happy. I imagine most people do. But as for why I should want to be happy or why I ought to be happy, I have no idea. If someone asked me, I would be completely lost for words. I really have no clue. If life is ultimately meaningless and exists for no purpose, why attach meaning or purpose where it previously didn't exist? What's the point? What difference does it make? Why bother? Is it because it makes for a harmonious and peaceful society? If so, then the question I would ask is: why care about harmony and peace? If some folks reply because they're better than other alternatives, the question becomes: why care about which alternatives are better than other alternatives?

In the end, I find Secular Humanism not much better than the Evangelical Christian fundamentalism I cheerfully renounced nine years ago!

For Secular Humanists, where do you think I'm going wrong?

look around you and savor the here and now. you cannot deny your truth, nor anyone elses. this is our one and only shot...we have no choice but to feel...we have no choice but to react...live, love and laugh...:beach:
 

Matthew78

aspiring biblical scholar
This seems to be your basic issue. Happiness is a goal that we normally all seek. It is a biological drive that guides our behavior. The real question for me and perhaps most others is why you would not want to be happy. Can you explain that?

I'm not sure I can explain it better than I have been trying to so far. It's not that I don't want to be unhappy. I don't see the point to being happy, to assigning value or meaning in my life, or living a moral life. It just all seems pointless to me. I realize that seeking to be happy is a biological drive but I'm not sure why I should bother to fulfill this biological drive. It's like hunger. We feel hunger and we feel a biological drive to satisfy our hunger. But we can questions like Why bother to satisfy our urge to eat? What does it matter whether we're satisfied or whether we starve to death?
 

Matthew78

aspiring biblical scholar
look around you and savor the here and now. you cannot deny your truth, nor anyone elses. this is our one and only shot...we have no choice but to feel...we have no choice but to react...live, love and laugh...:beach:

If this was truly our one and only shot and there was no real point to assigning purpose or meaning to our lives beyond just the mere desire to, I would probably just end it. I wouldn't see any point to my life and trying to assign value or meaning would be pointless.

I do appreciate your response as I do with everyone else's so far :)
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
If this was truly our one and only shot and there was no real point to assigning purpose or meaning to our lives beyond just the mere desire to, I would probably just end it. I wouldn't see any point to my life and trying to assign value or meaning would be pointless.

I do appreciate your response as I do with everyone else's so far :)

:)
i think we assign purpose and meaning for ourselves. we are responsible for ourselves after all. the cards that have been dealt represent a double edge sword...we are sentient beings who have acquired a sense of rationality...
 

Matthew78

aspiring biblical scholar
:)
i think we assign purpose and meaning for ourselves. we are responsible for ourselves after all. the cards that have been dealt represent a double edge sword...we are sentient beings who have acquired a sense of rationality...

I don't disagree with you. I think that's exactly what we do. :)
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But that would suppose, right, that there is a point in assigning value in the first place? We must first decide that assigning value is a meaningful and worthwhile human activity before asking what it is that we value. Do you agree?
It's not about assigning value, it's about perceiving value.

If you've got a kitten, and you get a lot of joy with playing with the kitten, taking care of it, seeing it be content, and it brightens your day when you come home from work and see your kitten, then the kitten is valuable to you whether or not you've consciously assigned value to it or not.

A happy person perceives their life to be valuable because through their life, they continue experiencing happiness, which is enjoyable in and of itself. A happy person does not ask another happy person why they bother with happiness. It's something that, when had, is already understood.

Secular moral systems would then be begging the question with regards to assigning subjective meaning and value. I don't see how it they couldn't.

I don't disagree with you. Life is not teleological in the sense that it deliberately or willfully seeks out goals to strive for. In fact, I think some people are wrongly critical of evolutionary biology because they confuse evolution with progress. I have no reason to believe that life exists for a purpose or that it's part of a grand plan. If my wording suggested that I believed otherwise, I apologize for any confusion my wording might have caused.

My struggle is with my own life. I'm not sure what point there is to assigning purpose or worth to my life. I don't see the point to happiness or morality, to be frank. I struggle with apathy and depression.
You've already answered your own question. In the OP, you said you want to be happy. Here, you said you struggle with apathy and depression. Why not the reverse? Why not say you want to be unhappy? Wouldn't it be unreasonable for a person to say they struggle with happiness and contentment, and seek to fix that?

This is what I struggle to understand. How is happiness an inherently desirable end?

I agree but I can't help thinking ethical systems can't escape the guilt of question-begging by assuming happiness is inherently worthwhile and deserving of spreading as a goal to be achieved.

I'm no stranger to ethics :) I've read Aristotle, Kant, Mill, and Simone De Beauvoir. Facinating bunch although De Beauvoir's book The Ethics of Ambiguity was sheer torture for me to read!
Happiness is one thing that is not consciously achieved simply for the sake of achieving something else. A happy person does not use happiness merely as a tool to achieve something else- happiness itself is the end result. Biologically, happiness provides a greater chance for living and producing, so it's a means to an end. It's a successful means, and humans desire it because, when had, it is valued for its own sake.

It's an axiom; self-evident. It's like in medicine, the axiom is that health is desirable. All of medicine is based on making people healthier. Happiness is inherently desirable by basically everyone because it's a biological tool that our species, and many animals, use to direct organisms to continue living. When working correctly and not abused, happiness is the body's tool for telling someone they are on the right track.
 
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Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
I'm not sure I can explain it better than I have been trying to so far. It's not that I don't want to be unhappy. I don't see the point to being happy, to assigning value or meaning in my life, or living a moral life. It just all seems pointless to me. I realize that seeking to be happy is a biological drive but I'm not sure why I should bother to fulfill this biological drive. It's like hunger. We feel hunger and we feel a biological drive to satisfy our hunger. But we can questions like Why bother to satisfy our urge to eat? What does it matter whether we're satisfied or whether we starve to death?
These do not strike me as hard questions to answer. You do not "decide" whether to fulfill a biological drive. You can resist it if you have another conflicting drive that is stronger. I try to avoid pain and discomfort like any other living animal. I will not stick my hand in fire and ask myself why I should bother to withdraw it. If I am hungry, I eat to satisfy my hunger. I might have a good reason to refrain from eating, even when hungry. If so, then I refrain from eating. Why do I do these things? Because I am alive, and I wish to remain alive in relative comfort and happiness as long as possible. It puzzles me that you would even ask why we should bother to try to be happy. That is like asking why I should bother to have an arm or a leg.
 
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