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Secular Support For Banning Gay Marriage

linwood

Well-Known Member
I`m just reading through all these gay marraige threads and figured we needed just one more.
:)
As I said I`ve been re-reading these threads and no where can I find anyone who argues for these bans giving any fair, consistent, logical secular reason for their existence.

I would like to hear one.

I offer this thread for the cause of banning gay marraige because if those who want the bans can`t come up for a reason to have them then there will be no bans.

Remember arguments from religion are excluded due to the fact that the laws of our nation rule over everyone and that includes those who aren`t religious or are of different religions.
Laws must be fair, they cannot discriminate therefore they cannot be based on religion.
 

Pah

Uber all member
linwood said:
I`m just reading through all these gay marraige threads and figured we needed just one more.
:)
As I said I`ve been re-reading these threads and no where can I find anyone who argues for these bans giving any fair, consistent, logical secular reason for their existence.

I would like to hear one.

I offer this thread for the cause of banning gay marraige because if those who want the bans can`t come up for a reason to have them then there will be no bans.

Remember arguments from religion are excluded due to the fact that the laws of our nation rule over everyone and that includes those who aren`t religious or are of different religions.
Laws must be fair, they cannot discriminate therefore they cannot be based on religion.


It may be early, but I think "opponents" are stumped for good secular reasons

Bob
 

Druidus

Keeper of the Grove
The first charge is simply false. Any homosexual can marry in any state of the Union and receive every one of the privileges and benefits of state-sanctioned matrimony. He just cannot marry someone of the same sex. These are rights and restrictions all citizens share equally.
I agree.

Let me illustrate. Smith and Jones both qualify to vote in America where they are citizens. Neither is allowed to vote in France. Jones, however, has no interest in U.S. politics; he’s partial to European concerns. Would Jones have a case if he complained, "Smith gets to vote [in California], but I don’t get to vote [in France]. That’s unequal protection under the law. He has a right I don’t have." No, both have the same rights and the same restrictions. There is no legal inequality, only an inequality of desire, but that is not the state’s concern.
An invalid argument, because same-sex marriage is grantable by the government, but voting rights in France isn't. Same-sex marriage is within this country.

The marriage licensing law applies to each citizen in the same way; everyone is treated exactly alike. Homosexuals want the right to do something no one, straight or gay, has the right to do: wed someone of the same sex. Denying them that right is not a violation of the equal protection clause.
Imagine that the law stated that no one has the right to be black. It applies equally over the entire racial spectrum, doesn't it? But is it fair? Negroids, like homosexuals, are what they are, and anything else would be absurd.

The government gives special benefits to marriages and not to others for good reason. It’s not because they involve long-term, loving, committed relationships. Many others qualify there. It’s because they involve children. Inheritance rights flow naturally to progeny. Tax relief for families eases the financial burden children make on paychecks. Insurance policies reflect the unique relationship between a wage earner and his or her dependents (if Mom stays home to care for kids, she–and they–are still covered).

These circumstances, inherent to families, simply are not intrinsic to other relationships, as a rule, including homosexual ones. There is no obligation for government to give every human coupling the same entitlements simply to "stabilize" the relationship. The unique benefits of marriage fit its unique purpose. Marriage is not meant to be a shortcut to group insurance rates or tax relief. It’s meant to build families.
Have you heard of adoption? Or surrogate mothers? There could be one child for each, born of a surrogate mother (or father). Would this not build families, and help orphaned children?

"Gay citizens" already have the same right to marry as anyone else–subject to the same restrictions. No one may marry a close blood relative, a child, a person who is already married, or a person of the same sex. However much those restrictions may disappoint the incestuous, pedophiles, polygamists, and homosexuals, the issue is not discrimination. It is the nature of marriage itself.
This is just wrong. Homosexuality is not a perversion. Unlike incest, polygamy, and pedophilia, homosexuality is normal, and definately not "wrong".

Consider two men, one rich and one poor, seeking to withdraw money from their bank. The rich man is denied because his account is empty. However, on closer inspection, a clerk discovers an error, corrects it, and releases the cash. Next in line, the poor man is denied for the same reason: insufficient funds. "That’s the same thing you said about the last guy," he snaps. "Yes," the clerk replies. "We made a mistake with his account, but not with yours. You’re broke."
It is factual that the poor man has nothing while the rich man does, however, it is not factual that homosexuality is any worse (or better) then interraciality. The argument stands.

Columnist Ellen Goodman writes, "The state is on shaky ground when it tries to criminalize sexual relations of the consensual living arrangements of adults." In San Francisco, a giddy newly "married" lesbian celebrates, "Now we’re not second-class citizens; now we can have a loving relationship like every other married couple we know." Another opines, "Anybody who is in love and wants to spend the rest of their life together should be able to do it." [emphasis added in all]

These remarks reflect a common misconception: Same—sex marriage will secure new liberties for homosexuals that have eluded them thus far. This will not happen because no personal liberty is being denied them. Gay couples can already do everything married people do–express love, set up housekeeping, share home ownership, have sex, raise children, commingle property, receive inheritance, and spend the rest of their lives together. It’s not criminal to do any of these things.

Homosexuals can even have a wedding. Yes, it's done all the time. Entire cottage industries have sprung up from Hollywood to the Big Apple serving the needs–from wedding cakes to honeymoons–of same-sex lovers looking to tie the knot.

Gay marriage grants no new freedom, and denying marriage licenses to homosexuals does not restrict any liberty. Nothing stops anyone–of any age, race, gender, class, or sexual preference–from making lifelong loving commitments to each other, pledging their troth until death do them part. They may lack certain entitlements, but not freedoms.

Denying marriage doesn't restrict anyone. It merely withholds social approval from a lifestyle and set of behaviors that homosexuals have complete freedom to pursue without it. A marriage license doesn’t give liberty; it gives respect.

And respect is precisely what homosexual activists long for, as one newly licensed lesbian spouse makes clear: "It was a moving experience after a truly lifelong commitment, to have a government entity say, ‘Your relationship is valid and important in the eyes of the law.’" Another admits, "This is about other people recognizing what we have already recognized with each other for a long time." And another: "I didn’t start out feeling this way, but that piece of paper, it’s just so important I can’t even put it into words. It’s so important to have society support you….It’s about society saying you’re recognized as a couple."

Ironically, heterosexuals have been living together for years enjoying every liberty of matrimony without the "piece of paper." Suddenly that meaningless piece of paper means everything to homosexuals. Why? Not because it confers liberty, but because it confers legitimacy. Note this telling passage from Time magazine’s "Will Gay Marriage be Legal?"

Ultimately, of course, the battle for gay marriage has always been about more than winning the second-driver discount at the Avis counter. In fact, the individual who has done most to push same-sex marriage–a brilliant 43-year-old lawyer-activist named Evan Wolfson–doesn’t even have a boyfriend. He and the others who brought the marriage lawsuits of the past decade want nothing less than full social equality, total validation–not just the right to inherit a mother-in-law’s Cadillac. As Andrew Sullivan, the (also persistently single) intellectual force behind gay marriage, has written, "Including homosexuals within marriage would be a means of conferring the highest form social approval imaginable." [emphasis added]

Same-sex marriage is not about civil rights. It’s about validation and social respect. It is a radical attempt at civil engineering using government muscle to strong-arm the people into accommodating a lifestyle many find deeply offensive, contrary to nature, socially destructive, and morally repugnant. Columnist Jeff Jacoby summed it up this way in The Boston Globe:

The marriage radicals…have not been deprived of the right to marry–only of the right to insist that a single-sex union is a "marriage." They cloak their demands in the language of civil rights because it sounds so much better than the truth: They don't want to accept or reject marriage on the same terms that it is available to everyone else. They want it on entirely new terms. They want it to be given a meaning it has never before had, and they prefer that it be done undemocratically–by judicial fiat, for example, or by mayors flouting the law. Whatever else that may be, it isn't civil rights.
Did you ever stop to think that perhaps they want official recognization because their religion requires it? Homosexuality deserves the same benefits heterosexuality does.

I'm not even going to bother with the rest of the bigotry.

I will state this though:

Dear Homophobes,

Marriage is about love and commitment, in it's purest form, not, race, religion, colour, ancestry, disability, or gender. Marriage is about love, not descrimination.
 

Doc

Space Chief
I do not like it when people put homosexuals in the same class as pedophiles. There is nothing about a homosexual relationship that could possibly hurt anyone in other hetero relationships.
 

Jaymes

The cake is a lie
Any homosexual can marry in any state of the Union and receive every one of the privileges and benefits of state-sanctioned matrimony. He just cannot marry someone of the same sex. These are rights and restrictions all citizens share equally.

Just like blacks have the right to marry only blacks, and whites have the right to marry only whites.

Next?

I realize that for homosexuals this is a profoundly unsatisfying response, but it is a legitimate one, nonetheless.

"Alright, gays, I know you don't like being told you can't marry who you love. But hey, we have a legitimate argument, here!"

Let me illustrate. Smith and Jones both qualify to vote in America where they are citizens. Neither is allowed to vote in France. Jones, however, has no interest in U.S. politics; he’s partial to European concerns. Would Jones have a case if he complained, "Smith gets to vote [in California], but I don’t get to vote [in France]. That’s unequal protection under the law. He has a right I don’t have." No, both have the same rights and the same restrictions. There is no legal inequality, only an inequality of desire, but that is not the state’s concern.

I won't say that's the worst analogy I've ever seen, but it comes close to it.

Marriage != Politics. And Jones can move to Europe if he wants to vote on things there. These are geographical concerns, not human rights concerns. You shouldn't have to move to be able to marry.

Homosexuals want the right to do something no one, straight or gay, has the right to do: wed someone of the same sex.

I think Massachusetts and several other countries disagree with you, there.

Marriage is a right not a privilage. Two consenting adults should be able to marry each other. Period.

However, no other non-marital relationships between individuals–non-gay brothers, a pair of spinsters, college roommates, fraternity brothers–share those benefits, either. Why should they?

This is demeaning to the love homosexuals share. This is equating their LOVE with simple friendship shared by roommates. It's damned haughty and offensive, and I'm not even going to deign that ridiculous question with an answer.

If homosexual couples face "unequal protection" in this area, so does every other pair of unmarried citizens who have deep, loving commitments to each other.

Citizens who are in heterosexual choose to not get married. If they want to, they can get married. I don't understand the point of this statement.

Why should gays get preferential treatment just because they are sexually involved?

IT IS NOT ABOUT THE SEX. It is about legally being able to see your partner in the hospital, about being able to leave them things in a will without legal difficulties, about being able to have the same damn rights every heterosexual person does. Having equal rights is hardly preferential.

It’s because they involve children.

Again, the flawed reproduction argument.

Go get impotent couple to divorce. Come back when you succeed and I'll agree to not marry my girlfriend.

Marriage is not meant to be a shortcut to group insurance rates or tax relief. It’s meant to build families.

As soon as I stop laughing I'll think of a reply to that.

Peter Sprigg of the Family Research Council sums the issue up nicely

Christian resource. Biased. Next?

Same-sex marriage and interracial marriage have nothing in common.

Except that they were, y'know, being denied the ability to marry who they want.

There is no difference between a black and a white human being because skin color is morally trivial.

Just as sex is. Male, female, the only difference is the plumbing.

Sex is fundamental to marriage.

Oh my god, is this guy under the impression gay people can't have sex? :biglaugh:

[Securing new liberties for homosexuals] will not happen because no personal liberty is being denied them.

Except marriage. And every other bloody thing I've listed that I can't do yet because I'm not married. But who's counting? :rolleyes:

Homosexuals can even have a wedding.

Yea, one the government basically spits on.

Gay marriage grants no new freedom, and denying marriage licenses to homosexuals does not restrict any liberty.

EXCEPT BEING IN A LEGALLY RECOGNIZED MARRIAGE. Jesus Christ, what is wrong with these people?

They may lack certain entitlements, but not freedoms.

Being able to visit my lifelong partner when she's on her deathbed isn't an entitlement.

Denying marriage doesn't restrict anyone.

... except the people it does.

It merely withholds social approval from a lifestyle and set of behaviors that homosexuals have complete freedom to pursue without it.

Oh, wow. I was unaware society had to approve of things for something to happen. Well, it's time to go round up those nutsy married couples that are into BDSM and divorce them, folks! After all, society doesn't approve of it.

Too tired to go through the rest of the empty rhetoric right now.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
The first charge is simply false. Any homosexual can marry in any state of the Union and receive every one of the privileges and benefits of state-sanctioned matrimony. He just cannot marry someone of the same sex. These are rights and restrictions all citizens share equally.
This is not even the argument.
The argument is that homosexuals cannot legally marry who they CHOOSE.

Let me illustrate. Smith and Jones both qualify to vote in America where they are citizens. Neither is allowed to vote in France.
This is idiocy, US law has nothing to do with the rights to vote in France.

Homosexuals want the right to do something no one, straight or gay, has the right to do: wed someone of the same sex.
This statement is in direct conflict with any Americans "Pursuit of Life, Liberty, &, Happiness"
Constitutional law will smack this down in a heartbeat.

The second complaint is more substantial. It’s true that homosexual couples do not have the same legal benefits as married heterosexuals regarding taxation, family leave, health care, hospital visitation, inheritance, etc. However, no other non-marital relationships between individuals–non-gay brothers, a pair of spinsters, college roommates, fraternity brothers–share those benefits, either. Why should they?
This argument is patently ridiculous and just drips with sick twisted intolerance.
Denying someone the right to do something and then justifying their inabilty to do it by citing their lack of rights is ...evil.

There is no obligation for government to give every human coupling the same entitlements simply to "stabilize" the relationship. The unique benefits of marriage fit its unique purpose. Marriage is not meant to be a shortcut to group insurance rates or tax relief. It’s meant to build families.
Please explain to Maize why the family she has already built while having to work against this intolerence is not as "valid" as a "nuclear family".
More intolerence.

However much those restrictions may disappoint the incestuous, pedophiles, polygamists, and homosexuals, the issue is not discrimination. It is the nature of marriage itself.
This is some sick ****.
I won`t even counter it.

Same-sex marriage and interracial marriage have nothing in common. There is no difference between a black and a white human being because skin color is morally trivial. There is an enormous difference, however, between a man and a woman. Ethnicity has no bearing on marriage. Sex is fundamental to marriage.
They are exactly identical for the exact reason this states they aren`t.
Who anyone chooses to have sex with is "Morally trivial" in fact it has nothing to do with morality.
Homosexuals have sex so that also has no bearing.

Same-sex marriage is not about civil rights. It’s about validation and social respect. It is a radical attempt at civil engineering using government muscle to strong-arm the people into accommodating a lifestyle many find deeply offensive, contrary to nature, socially destructive, and morally repugnant.
Many find it deeply offensive due to religious reason. homosexuality is in no way contrary to nature, it is not socially destructive, and the only morals it is repugnant to are those formed by religious dogma.
I said "secular" reasoning.

The controversy about same-sex marriage churns principally around the definition of marriage. Activists deny the traditional view, that marriage is about children.
This one falls the moment we begin to allow sterile heteros to marry or we allow those who use birth control to marry..oh ..wait..this has already been debunked.

Love may percolate later, but only as a result of marriage, not the reason for it.
:biglaugh::bonk:

In the same way, the natural tie of marriage to procreation is not nullified because in some individual cases children are not intended or even possible. Marriage still is what it is even if its essential purpose is never actualized.
Here this guy is actually arguing against himself and doesn`t even realise it.
:tsk:

I should have said I wanted secular reasons that are not blatently twisted to foster intolerence.

This one wouldn`t make it through the evidentiary trials of a court of law.

I`m feeling pretty good about the upcoming lawsuits!!
:jam:
 

CJW

Member
Homosexuality as a form and pattern of sexuality does not promote the general welfare. It generally harms it.

Therefore, it is not promoted on a par with a form and pattern of sexuality that does.

As to the excuse making, it is absurd. Men are born with a strong desire to have sex with more than just one woman. Yet, the institution of marriage is not defined by that fact. In fact, laws are made to refine and define human desires.

When laws begin to be defined by people who self define by their own sexual desires in order to define the laws the way they want them then you know that a civilization is approaching its end.
 

Jaymes

The cake is a lie
CJW said:
Homosexuality as a form and pattern of sexuality does not promote the general welfare. It generally harms it.

How does it harm anyone's welfare? How do Sally and Susie holding hands cause the downfall of society?

Therefore, it is not promoted on a par with a form and pattern of sexuality that does.

Sexuality can promote welfare? :sarcastic Well, I suppose it promotes child welfare...

While we're on this, the whole Protestant thing is that ALL sex is bad, isn't it? So why differentiate between homosexual and heterosexual sex?

As to the excuse making, it is absurd. Men are born with a strong desire to have sex with more than just one woman. Yet, the institution of marriage is not defined by that fact. In fact, laws are made to refine and define human desires.

Admit it--people just can't stand the thought of hot man on man monogamy. :jiggy:

When laws begin to be defined by people who self define by their own sexual desires in order to define the laws the way they want them then you know that a civilization is approaching its end.

Exactly! These crazy heterosexuals want to get married and have sex! It's time to wipe ALL marriage from the lawbooks! We'll not let these sexual perverts dominate our churches and streets anymore! Down with marriage! :biglaugh:
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
CJW said:
When laws begin to be defined by people who self define by their own sexual desires in order to define the laws the way they want them then you know that a civilization is approaching its end.
Are you saying that homosexual marriages will cause the collapse of civilization? :biglaugh: I can think of a dozen other things that are easily greater threats to civilization than homosexual marriages -- over-population and enviromental degradation, for instance.
 

Pah

Uber all member
Jensa said:
Quote: (Originally Posted by chronic1634)
frankly, i don't understand why you're replying to me. reply to them if you disagree.


Because... you posted the link?
___________________________

Maybe that's intended as a secular reason not to allow homosexual marriage - somebody else told me so!!!!!!!! :biglaugh:

Bob
 

Lintu

Active Member
I love that "homosexuality will destroy civilization" argument. Many people say it, but no one ever gives a concrete reason as to why this would happen.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
CJW said:
Homosexuality as a form and pattern of sexuality does not promote the general welfare. It generally harms it.
Your evidence of this is...what exactly?

As to the excuse making, it is absurd. Men are born with a strong desire to have sex with more than just one woman. Yet, the institution of marriage is not defined by that fact. In fact, laws are made to refine and define human desires.
I can and will provide evidence that animals in general are not born with any certain proclivity for any gender but merely strive to have sex...IE:Horniness
Society, environment, and culture generally determine who they have sex with.

When laws begin to be defined by people who self define by their own sexual desires in order to define the laws the way they want them then you know that a civilization is approaching its end.
Homosexuals have been forced to "self-define" themselves acording to their sexual orientation in a defensive measure against a society that finds their existence in its midst abhorrent.
They are not "self-defined" theyt have been defined by society.
Their only involvement in this is that they have accepted the definition society gave them and hold it high as a banner of solidarity.
I don`t like it but I`m not sure what else they could have done.
This is another case of blaming the victim for their sorrows.


NEXT!!
 

true blood

Active Member
Promoting homosexuality endangers civilization as a whole, endangers creation. All this talk about how marriage is all about love is bunk. This nation will 1) never have a homosexual president and 2) never have an athiest president. Homosexuals and athiest are growing in numbers so I feel the downfall is already at hand.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Homosexuals and athiest are growing in numbers so I feel the downfall is already at hand.

I just wish it`d speed up a bit.
I`m not going to live forever y`know.
I don`t want to miss out.
 
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