Secularists--Would You Eliminate All Religion, If You Could?

[Magic Man]

Now, what we're getting into is discrimination. I can't say I think discrimination is all bad. To me, there is an allowable level of it. If I start a business, then I have the right to decide what is "professional" and what isn't for my business. If I want to not hire a gay person, just because they're gay, then that's my prerogative. I'm not saying anyone should do that, but there should be the freedom there.

The government is a different story, though. They shouldn't be allowed to discriminate like that, and they aren't really.

And just to be clear, I don't advocate discrimination against gay people, or any other minority group. I'm just saying that a business owner should be allowed to discriminate if he feels it will better his business. If not, then you're discriminating against that owner.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

However, when an employee deals with clients in person, "looking professional" is a job requirement. What that means varies from occupation to another, of course.

Sure, but a turban, hijab, gold cross necklace, or the vast majority of religious and cultural symbols that people tend to wear can quite easily be part of "looking professional".

Now, what we're getting into is discrimination. I can't say I think discrimination is all bad. To me, there is an allowable level of it. If I start a business, then I have the right to decide what is "professional" and what isn't for my business. If I want to not hire a gay person, just because they're gay, then that's my prerogative. I'm not saying anyone should do that, but there should be the freedom there.

I disagree completely. I believe it's a business owner's prerogative to dicate employee conduct and dress as it relates to the business, and that's all. I don't think that a business owner has any right to use their status to engage in discrimination.

And just to be clear, I don't advocate discrimination against gay people, or any other minority group. I'm just saying that a business owner should be allowed to discriminate if he feels it will better his business. If not, then you're discriminating against that owner.

How so? How is it discriminatory to say to that owner "you can place restrictions on your employees, but only with regard to things that actually apply to your business"?

 

[Magic Man]

Sure, but a turban, hijab, gold cross necklace, or the vast majority of religious and cultural symbols that people tend to wear can quite easily be part of "looking professional".


I disagree completely. I believe it's a business owner's prerogative to dicate employee conduct and dress as it relates to the business, and that's all. I don't think that a business owner has any right to use their status to engage in discrimination.


How so? How is it discriminatory to say to that owner "you can place restrictions on your employees, but only with regard to things that actually apply to your business"?

If I write a book, are there any restrictions placed on how I write it or what I write? No. I can write anything I want, otherwise it would be censorship. If I own a business, then it's mine. Why shouldn't I get to do whatever I want with it as long as it doesn't actively hurt others? It then gets into discrimination against the business owner's ideas.

 

[Storm]

If I write a book, are there any restrictions placed on how I write it or what I write? No. I can write anything I want, otherwise it would be censorship. If I own a business, then it's mine. Why shouldn't I get to do whatever I want with it as long as it doesn't actively hurt others? It then gets into discrimination against the business owner's ideas.

But discrimination does actively hurt others.

 

[Magic Man]

But discrimination does actively hurt others.

No, it passively hurts them. I wouldn't seek someone out and insult or berate them because they are gay, or black, or whatever. That would be actively hurting them. On the other hand, if they came to me for a job, and I decided I didn't want them for those reasons, then they can go somewhere else. Is telling someone the truth immoral, even if it hurts their feelings?

 

[Storm]

No, it passively hurts them. I wouldn't seek someone out and insult or berate them because they are gay, or black, or whatever. That would be actively hurting them. On the other hand, if they came to me for a job, and I decided I didn't want them for those reasons, then they can go somewhere else.

And what if everyone decides to discriminate against them? Is it not actively hurting them to diny them a means of supporting themselves?

Is telling someone the truth immoral, even if it hurts their feelings?

Depends on the situation.

 

[Fluffy]

On the other hand, if they came to me for a job, and I decided I didn't want them for those reasons, then they can go somewhere else. Is telling someone the truth immoral, even if it hurts their feelings?

What happens if the vast majority of people won't employ a particular minority resulting in unemployment and the inability of that minority to support themselves? What is the solution there?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If I write a book, are there any restrictions placed on how I write it or what I write? No. I can write anything I want, otherwise it would be censorship. If I own a business, then it's mine. Why shouldn't I get to do whatever I want with it as long as it doesn't actively hurt others? It then gets into discrimination against the business owner's ideas.

Turn that around and look at things from the employee's perspective: why shouldn't they get to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't actively hurt others?

By taking this stand, you're effectively saying that the business owner has the freedom to deny freedom to his or her employees. I don't think this is a good idea.

A business is a profit-making enterprise, and the rules around businesses are built on that basis. When a person changes the focus of their company away from profit and instead makes it a platform for discrimination, it ceases to be the profit-making enterprise that was originally assumed.

I think the best scenario is a balance between the needs and wants of the business owner, and the needs and wants of the employees: your butcher shop shouldn't have to make allowances for an Orthodox Jewish staff member who won't touch anything at any work station where pork has been handled, but your Catholic meat cutters should be protected from you arbitrarily deciding that your shop will now only hire Baptists. You get the latitude to run your business as you reasonably see fit, and your employees have the freedom to act and think as they see fit where it doesn't relate to the job.

No, it passively hurts them. I wouldn't seek someone out and insult or berate them because they are gay, or black, or whatever. That would be actively hurting them. On the other hand, if they came to me for a job, and I decided I didn't want them for those reasons, then they can go somewhere else. Is telling someone the truth immoral, even if it hurts their feelings?

So, in your mind, a "No Irish Need Apply" sign in a shop window is acceptable?

 

[Autodidact]

Personally, I don't think employers should have any right to make demands of their employees that have nothing to do with their job.

If a manufacturing company has a rule against dangling jewelry to prevent it from getting caught in machinery, I think that's okay... even if they ban crucifix or Star of David necklaces along with every other type of jewelry that's hazardous in that environment. However, businesses should not have rules on appearance that have nothing to do with job requirements (and I would include "looking professional" in this category) or workplace hazards.

Frankly, if an inside sales rep who only deals with clients over the phone comes to work wearing a 5-pound wooden crucifix around her neck and has "I (heart) Jesus" tattooed across her forehead, but she fulfils her job description and the employee policy handbook to the letter, the employer has no valid complaint, IMO.

Should they be allowed to have such rules? Would you prohibit such rules?

 

[Autodidact]

Now, what we're getting into is discrimination. I can't say I think discrimination is all bad. To me, there is an allowable level of it. If I start a business, then I have the right to decide what is "professional" and what isn't for my business. If I want to not hire a gay person, just because they're gay, then that's my prerogative. I'm not saying anyone should do that, but there should be the freedom there.

The government is a different story, though. They shouldn't be allowed to discriminate like that, and they aren't really.

And just to be clear, I don't advocate discrimination against gay people, or any other minority group. I'm just saying that a business owner should be allowed to discriminate if he feels it will better his business. If not, then you're discriminating against that owner.

Would that include not hiring people because of their race?

 

[Magic Man]

What happens if the vast majority of people won't employ a particular minority resulting in unemployment and the inability of that minority to support themselves? What is the solution there?

Then they don't get a job, and can't support themselves. You can try to educate those employers and get them to see that what they are doing is wrong, but forcing your beliefs on them is just as wrong. Also, if a business discriminates against a certain group, then people can counter it by boycotting. If everyone cared enough, they would boycott the place until it went out of business, or changed its policy, but as long as the business is doing well, the owner will see no reason to change.

 

[Magic Man]

Would that include not hiring people because of their race?

Yes, it would.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Should they be allowed to have such rules? Would you prohibit such rules?

You mean rules that don't have anything to do with actual job requirements? No, I don't think they should be allowed to have them. And yes, I would prohibit them.

BTW - I think my last post was a bit confusing; I meant to say that "looking professional" would be a job-related requirement.