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Seeing things in their past? You are full of beans!

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member

This is correct.

It does not travel 30 million light years instantly in any reference frame.

So you are agreeing there is a contradiction?

But you just said the photon traveled from the star to the planet , a physical distance of 30 million light years away, instantly.
That is in complete contradiction with the light only traveling at the speed of light = C
Since C doesn't = instantly.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Let it be in your frame which has no reference. How can you ever come up with anything using your limiting frame? You have no distances, no times, hence no speeds, hence no reasonable conclusions can be made.

Which is precisely why it is only a limiting frame and not a real frame.

Why would the math equations you gave even be reliable? Since t would always equal t' , and d would always equal d' , and you have no starting points to begin with since nothing can be related to anything else.

Again, this is why it isn't a real reference frame. It is only a limit. But to actually use that frame would not be helpful in any real calculation. For such, you wan tto stick with real frames (Lorentz frames) which go at speeds less than c.

What is the lim of v =d/t as time approaches 0? I think it's infinity not c.[/QUOTE]

The limit obtained is a 0/0 form, which is indeterminate. Doing the specifics does, in fact, give a limiting speed of c.

You could call the origin on the star point d, and the destination on the planet d' , but you can't come up with any meaningful info , because they are either all 0 or don't relate to anything else.

Multiple distances are all always 0, and Times are always 0, so what good is any of it?

Not much. That is why it isn't a real frame. It is a limit of real frames and has very, very limited utility.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Sorry I think what you are describing is a fantasy world where 4ly = 40ly = 30 million light years = no distance or time away.

Let's leave off the no distance 'frame' which is not a real frame.

Are you OK with having different frames where in one frame the distance is 30 million light years, in another it is 10 million light years, in another it is 10 light years, and in yet another it is 1 light year?

These are all *real* frames, not some limiting one. ALL give consistent descriptions and there is even a way to convert from one frame to another.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
So you are agreeing there is a contradiction?

But you just said the photon traveled from the star to the planet , a physical distance of 30 million light years away, instantly.
That is in complete contradiction with the light only traveling at the speed of light = C
Since C doesn't = instantly.

I am agreeing that there is no reference frame that moves at the speed of light. In all reference frames, the speed of light is the same. In all reference frames, it does take time for light to go from one location to another.

Now, it is quite possible that one frame sees the distance to be 30 million light years and another frame sees it as 1 light year. In the first, it will take light 30 million years to cover the distance. In the second, it will take it 1 year. Both are correct and accurate descriptions of the physical situation.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
You all said 30 million light years is a distance. Now you tell me it's not a distance.


It is a distance IN YOUR FRAME OF REFERENCE. As you have stated over and over, we are not talking about your frame of reference. We are talking about the photon's environment. In that environment, THERE IS NO DISTANCE. For the photon, 30 light years doesn't exist because there is no distance.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
So you are agreeing there is a contradiction?

There is no contradiction. As Polymath has stated, the photon's view or environment is not a real frame of reference. It is a "divide by zero" error, to use a somewhat applicable analogy. For anything in a real frame of reference the speed of light is constant. It is always 3E8 m/s.

But you just said the photon traveled from the star to the planet , a physical distance of 30 million light years away, instantly.

What we have been telling you is that a star 30 million light years away in your frame of reference shrinks down to no distance at the speed of light, which is the limit for the Lorentz transformation. When you get to the speed of light length contraction is infinite.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Let's leave off the no distance 'frame' which is not a real frame.

Are you OK with having different frames where in one frame the distance is 30 million light years, in another it is 10 million light years, in another it is 10 light years, and in yet another it is 1 light year?

These are all *real* frames, not some limiting one. ALL give consistent descriptions and there is even a way to convert from one frame to another.

To be honest, I am not sure. Can you recommend some links with explanations?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
To be honest, I am not sure. Can you recommend some links with explanations?

Pretty much any place that discusses Special Relativity will have something on space contraction and time dilation. Another thing you seem to have some issues with is that speed is not an absolute thing: you are always at rest in your own reference frame, even though you are moving in someone else's frame.

I'll see what I can find for basic descriptions. But this is NOT purely theoretical. We have actual measurements that verify these effects, both in Earth-bound systems and astronomical ones. That time durations and distances depend on reference frame is well verified now that we are over a century out from their original proposal.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Pretty much any place that discusses Special Relativity will have something on space contraction and time dilation. Another thing you seem to have some issues with is that speed is not an absolute thing: you are always at rest in your own reference frame, even though you are moving in someone else's frame.

I'll see what I can find for basic descriptions. But this is NOT purely theoretical. We have actual measurements that verify these effects, both in Earth-bound systems and astronomical ones. That time durations and distances depend on reference frame is well verified now that we are over a century out from their original proposal.


So are all the measurements from different frames of reference accurate, or is only one really the truth, and the others are perceived truth?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
To be honest, I am not sure. Can you recommend some links with explanations?
TrueBeliever37.

My focus on physics during my years in universities have been applied to civil engineering (eg Newton’s gravity and forces, the physical properties of materials, etc) and computer science (mostly needed for understanding electricity, electronics, and electromagnetism (eg wireless and fibre optic networks), so I wasn’t required to learn about relativity, quantum physics and astrophysics, because they weren’t relevant in my courses.

I can tell you now, that polymath and thermos aquaticus are actually doing great job in explaining to you, about relativity, photon and frame reference, because I actually understood what they were trying to explain to you, even though these are not my areas of expertise.

If polymath did provide you some links, you may not understand the provided links. You might ended up being more confuse than before.

My suggestion to yo you, if you want explanation they can provide it for you, and they can easily clarify what you might not understand.

They can still provide links, if you want to verify what they have written, but they are only trying to help you understand the physics.
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
So are all the measurements from different frames of reference accurate, or is only one really the truth, and the others are perceived truth?


All are accurate. This is what is meant to say that space and time are relative: they depend on reference frame and every reference frame is equally valid.

That said, there *are* things we can determine that are the same about events in ALL reference frames. There is something called the spacetime interval on which all reference frames agree. Also, all laws of physics have the same expression in all reference frames.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
All are accurate. This is what is meant to say that space and time are relative: they depend on reference frame and every reference frame is equally valid.

That said, there *are* things we can determine that are the same about events in ALL reference frames. There is something called the spacetime interval on which all reference frames agree. Also, all laws of physics have the same expression in all reference frames.


Let me give you an example of why I ask this.

Let's say I lay a pen I have measured to be 5 1/2" on the table. It measures 5 1/2" long from that reference.

I walk away 10 feet, and look at it from that reference. It measures 1" long from that reference.

I
walk farther, until I reach a reference where the pen doesn't even look like it is there anymore. It doesn't even exist from that reference.

So are all those reference frames accurate? Or does only one really represent the truth?

I believe only one actually represents the truth. The pen is actually in existence, and it is 5 1/2" long.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
All are accurate. This is what is meant to say that space and time are relative: they depend on reference frame and every reference frame is equally valid.

That said, there *are* things we can determine that are the same about events in ALL reference frames. There is something called the spacetime interval on which all reference frames agree. Also, all laws of physics have the same expression in all reference frames.

Polymath257,

I just think the whole concept is wrong.

First of all time is not really approaching 0 to begin with, time keeps marching on.

It's the time being allowed to get there, that you are actually allowing to approach to 0 , so naturally the distance left is also approaching 0.

The problem is you can't let that time approach 0, because it is dependent on a constant of C.
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Let me give you an example of why I ask this.

Let's say I lay a pen I have measured to be 5 1/2" on the table. It measures 5 1/2" long from that reference.

I walk away 10 feet, and look at it from that reference. It measures 1" long from that reference.

I
walk farther, until I reach a reference where the pen doesn't even look like it is there anymore. It doesn't even exist from that reference.

So are all those reference frames accurate? Or does only one really represent the truth?

I believe only one actually represents the truth. The pen is actually in existence, and it is 5 1/2" long.


OK< so your problem is that you don't understand what a reference frame is. Those are NOT different reference frames you described! It is *one* reference frame. When you were 10 feet away, you did NOT measure the pen to be 1". You might have measured the angular width to be some angle. But then you could use trigonometry to figure out the size to be 5 1/2". When you walked far enough away that you didn't see it, you could have used a telescope or binoculars to do a similar thing and still find it to be 5 1/2"/ It *does* still exist in that perspective! You just need better instruments to detect it.

Remember that a reference frame gives positions and times to *all* events in spacetime, at least potentially. So, yes, in the *common* frame of all your perspectives above, the pen is the same length 5 1.2".

The reason your different perspectives are NOT different frames is that you were at rest to each other in all of them. The pen was not moving with respect to you in any of the measurements you took. To be in a different frame (at least in special relativity), you have to be moving with respect to each other.

So, next important concept. If you were out in space in a sealed spacecraft, there is no way to tell *from inside the spacecraft* whether you are moving or not. This is called the principle of relativity. So, for example, if you watch the motion of a bunch of objects, they will appear *to you* the same whether the spacecraft is going at 50% of c or is at rest with respect to the Earth. One consequence of this is that everything it *at rest* in its own reference frame. Another is that when talking about speeds, it only makes sense to talk about relative motion (I am moving past you at 50% of c) and not absolute motion (I am moving at 75% of c).

So, different reference frames are moving with respect to each other at spme speed and in some direction.

So, to continue your description of the pen, in all your perspectives above, the pen was 5 1/2" inches. That is its length in that one reference frame.

But, suppose that I am in a spacecraft going past you at 86% of the speed of light and just as I pass that same pen, I do a quick measurement of it by taking a photograph or whatever (the method of measurement isn't relevant here). I will determine that pen to be 2 3/4" long. Somebody else in my rather large spacecraft, looking from 10 meters away might have to use trigonometry to measure the length, but they will also measure the pen to be 2 3/4".

These are different reference frames. This is NOT simply a matter of perspective. In each frame, you get to make whatever measurements you want from whatever position you want and make calculations based on geometry or trigonometry. For the frame moving past at 86% of c, there is NO place where you can be where that pen measures to be 5 1/2". In that frame, the pen measures 2 3/4" no matter how you find the length. It is the real length of that pen in that frame.

By symmetry, suppose that spacecraft has a pen and that those on the spacecraft measure it to be 5 1/2". This is the value from all perspectives moving with the spacecraft (at rest with respect to the spacecraft). Now, *you*, who are going at 86% of the speed of light past the spacecraft measure *their* pen. What you will find is that in all *your* perspectives (but same frame!) that pen on the spacecraft is 2 3/4" long.

<---more in another post-->
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
OK< so your problem is that you don't understand what a reference frame is. Those are NOT different reference frames you described! It is *one* reference frame. When you were 10 feet away, you did NOT measure the pen to be 1". You might have measured the angular width to be some angle. But then you could use trigonometry to figure out the size to be 5 1/2". When you walked far enough away that you didn't see it, you could have used a telescope or binoculars to do a similar thing and still find it to be 5 1/2"/ It *does* still exist in that perspective! You just need better instruments to detect it.

Remember that a reference frame gives positions and times to *all* events in spacetime, at least potentially. So, yes, in the *common* frame of all your perspectives above, the pen is the same length 5 1.2".

The reason your different perspectives are NOT different frames is that you were at rest to each other in all of them. The pen was not moving with respect to you in any of the measurements you took. To be in a different frame (at least in special relativity), you have to be moving with respect to each other.

So, next important concept. If you were out in space in a sealed spacecraft, there is no way to tell *from inside the spacecraft* whether you are moving or not. This is called the principle of relativity. So, for example, if you watch the motion of a bunch of objects, they will appear *to you* the same whether the spacecraft is going at 50% of c or is at rest with respect to the Earth. One consequence of this is that everything it *at rest* in its own reference frame. Another is that when talking about speeds, it only makes sense to talk about relative motion (I am moving past you at 50% of c) and not absolute motion (I am moving at 75% of c).

So, different reference frames are moving with respect to each other at spme speed and in some direction.

So, to continue your description of the pen, in all your perspectives above, the pen was 5 1/2" inches. That is its length in that one reference frame.

But, suppose that I am in a spacecraft going past you at 86% of the speed of light and just as I pass that same pen, I do a quick measurement of it by taking a photograph or whatever (the method of measurement isn't relevant here). I will determine that pen to be 2 3/4" long. Somebody else in my rather large spacecraft, looking from 10 meters away might have to use trigonometry to measure the length, but they will also measure the pen to be 2 3/4".

These are different reference frames. This is NOT simply a matter of perspective. In each frame, you get to make whatever measurements you want from whatever position you want and make calculations based on geometry or trigonometry. For the frame moving past at 86% of c, there is NO place where you can be where that pen measures to be 5 1/2". In that frame, the pen measures 2 3/4" no matter how you find the length. It is the real length of that pen in that frame.

By symmetry, suppose that spacecraft has a pen and that those on the spacecraft measure it to be 5 1/2". This is the value from all perspectives moving with the spacecraft (at rest with respect to the spacecraft). Now, *you*, who are going at 86% of the speed of light past the spacecraft measure *their* pen. What you will find is that in all *your* perspectives (but same frame!) that pen on the spacecraft is 2 3/4" long.

<---more in another post-->

To me any physical distance in space between planets, or a star and a planet has an actual real distance.
 
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TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
By symmetry, suppose that spacecraft has a pen and that those on the spacecraft measure it to be 5 1/2". This is the value from all perspectives moving with the spacecraft (at rest with respect to the spacecraft). Now, *you*, who are going at 86% of the speed of light past the spacecraft measure *their* pen. What you will find is that in all *your* perspectives (but same frame!) that pen on the spacecraft is 2 3/4" long.

<---more in another post-->

Yes but that pen is actually 5 1/2" long, it doesn't matter whether they say it is 2 3/4" long in the other frame of reference.

One is the truth of the matter, and the other is a perceived truth.

The frame of reference that actually physically measured it would be correct, because they were actually there and physically measured it. Whoever just passed by would be getting the perceived measurement.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Yes but that pen is actually 5 1/2' long, it doesn't matter whether they say it is 2 3/4" long in the other frame of reference.
You are making the error of thinking your frame is the "correct" frame.frame

One can only measure from the frame that one is in, or calculate what another would measure from his frame. Neither one is absolutely correct.
 
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