Seeing things in their past? You are full of beans!

[Polymath257]

Polymath, please forget about the spaceship for a little bit. Why are there two different times *as measured from the earth*, if the photon truly experiences no time or distance?

I understand it depends on the reference frame. But those two times were calculated using the same reference frame.

The 'frame' for the photon is not the frame for the earth. In fact, there *isn't* a frame for the photon! So the conversion from the imaginary 'photon frame' to the real Earth frame cannot be done.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

You are assuming that the distance between two points is the same for all observers. This is a false assumption.

No I am assuming the same observer considers two different events. One event is that it takes light 8m and 20s to get from the sun to here. The second event is that it takes 30 million years for light to get from another star to here. He wonders, how could there be a difference in time, if the photon truly experiences no time or distance?

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

No I am assuming the same observer considers two different events.

For any observer who is sitting on the Earth and is not moving with respect to the Earth, then they will observe the light coming from the Sun in about 8 minutes and light coming from a star 2.835E23 meters away taking 30 million years.

He wonders, how could there be a difference in time, if the photon truly experiences no time or distance?

He shouldn't wonder after we explain how relativity works and tell him that he his not moving at the speed of light.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Yes, the observer on the Earth.



Here, you are changing to an 'observer' moving along with the photon. The difference is that the 30 million light years and 500 seconds are in *one* frame: that of the Earth, which is at rest with respect to the Earth, sun, and star.

But you *asked* for what the photon 'experiences', which means you want information from the reference frame of the photon, not the reference frame of the Earth. And the problem, once again, is that there is no valid reference frame for the photon. it can only be evaluated by taking a limit of what observers going at speeds close rand closer to that of light experience. And, as we get closer and closer to the speed of light, the distances get smaller and smaller and go to 0 in the limit. Now, for any *real* reference frame, the distance to the star will be many times larger than the distance to the sun and the times will also differ. But you asked for what happens *to the photon* and that can only be answered by doing the limit.

You still seem to be confused by what it means to be a reference frame. The photon has a different frame than the Earth. The measurement of 30 million light years is in the earth's frame. The measurement of 8 minutes, 20 seconds is in the Earth's frame.

But the 0 distance and time are in the *imaginary* photon frame.

No, I mean both of those different times were calculated using one frame: that of the Earth , as you said. I can clearly see that there was a difference in time for the photon to travel different distances. I don't have to see from it's perspective, to be able to see that.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

I can clearly see that there was a difference in time for the photon to travel different distances.

You are not moving at the speed of light.

 

[viole]

It is not about what I say, why not open your mind and experience thinking for yourself on a sensual level of experience.

I beg your pardon. What is this sensual nonsense... Are you hitting on me?

Ciao

- viole

 

[james blunt]

I beg your pardon. What is this sensual nonsense... Are you hitting on me?

Ciao

- viole

Your own imagination dear...

Definition of sensual. 1 : relating to or consisting in the gratification of the senses

Don't you feel like you want your senses fulfilled by enlightenment?

 

[Polymath257]

No, I mean both of those different times were calculated using one frame: that of the Earth , as you said. I can clearly see that there was a difference in time for the photon to travel different distances. I don't have to see from it's perspective, to be able to see that.

And once again, that 'perspective' is a limiting one. It is not a real one. The problem is that 0*30,000,000 = 0* 500 even though 30,000,000 is not 500. The 0 here is *because thee of the photon is not a real frame---it is an imaginary frame*. There is no 'frame of the photon'.

 

[viole]

Your own imagination dear...

Definition of sensual. 1 : relating to or consisting in the gratification of the senses

Don't you feel like you want your senses fulfilled by enlightenment?

No.

Ciao

- viole

 

[james blunt]

No.

Ciao

- viole

Interesting , no desire to learn .

 

[TrueBeliever37]

And once again, that 'perspective' is a limiting one. It is not a real one. The problem is that 0*30,000,000 = 0* 500 even though 30,000,000 is not 500. The 0 here is *because thee of the photon is not a real frame---it is an imaginary frame*. There is no 'frame of the photon'.

Nope, that time it was from a real one, the perspective of the earth. (time to earth from sun = 8m and 20s , while time from star to earth = 30 million years) - using a real frame, and showing the photon experiencing a difference in time

You guys keep saying the photon experiences no time or distance in it's reference frame. That should mean that in any photon race it is always a tie from it's imaginary perspective.

Why is the photon race never a tie in any of the real perspectives?

Since there is no frame of the photon, we need to draw conclusions from the real frames. There is time and distance experienced by the photon according to the real frames, since the photon is traveling at C in all those frames.

 

[Polymath257]

Nope, that time it was from a real one, the perspective of the earth. (time to earth from sun = 8m and 20s , while time from star to earth = 30 million years) - using a real frame, and showing the photon experiencing a difference in time

Nope. That is the time experienced by the Earth, not by the photon.

You guys keep saying the photon experiences no time or distance in it's reference frame. That should mean that in any photon race it is always a tie from it's imaginary perspective.

Why is the photon race never a tie in any of the real perspectives?

Because a photon doesn't actually have a frame. In that limiting frame *everything* is a tie. In any *real* frame, it won't be a tie.

Let's put it this way. Suppose x is not 0, is x*(30 million) equal to x*(500)? No, never. But if x=0, the two are equal. In our case, x is not zero in all real frames and x=0 in the un-real photon frame. More specifically, x=sqrt(1 - (v/c)^2 ).

Since there is no frame of the photon, we need to draw conclusions from the real frames. There is time and distance experienced by the photon according to the real frames, since the photon is traveling at C in all those frames.

When you say 'time experienced by the photon', you are forcing into the non-existent photon frame. You can ask for the time experienced *by the earth* as the photon travels. But that is the frame of the *earth*. There is no tie in the Earth's frame (or in any real frame). You can ask what the time is experienced *by a spaceship* as the photon travels. That time will be different than what the earth experiences. And, again, there would not be a tie.

But when you ask how much time the *photon* experiences, you are automatically asking about a frame for the photon. Do you get that?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Are you telling us that Jesus is a bunch of bosons mediating the electromagnetic force? OK.

Ciao

- viole

And here I thought, "Viole actually reads and comprehends what others post here, and knows that God is Spirit and that the New Testament says His power works down to the sub-element level to cohere this universe."

Okay.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Nope. That is the time experienced by the Earth, not by the photon.



Because a photon doesn't actually have a frame. In that limiting frame *everything* is a tie. In any *real* frame, it won't be a tie.

Let's put it this way. Suppose x is not 0, is x*(30 million) equal to x*(500)? No, never. But if x=0, the two are equal. In our case, x is not zero in all real frames and x=0 in the un-real photon frame. More specifically, x=sqrt(1 - (v/c)^2 ).



When you say 'time experienced by the photon', you are forcing into the non-existent photon frame. You can ask for the time experienced *by the earth* as the photon travels. But that is the frame of the *earth*. There is no tie in the Earth's frame (or in any real frame). You can ask what the time is experienced *by a spaceship* as the photon travels. That time will be different than what the earth experiences. And, again, there would not be a tie.

But when you ask how much time the *photon* experiences, you are automatically asking about a frame for the photon. Do you get that?

Think of it this way Polymath,

Imagine one of those clocks that was on the links you guys gave me, where a photon bounced back and forth so many clicks per second.

This time let the clock be sitting on your lap, as you travel in the ship, in such a way that the photon moves back and forth(between the mirrors) in the same direction you are traveling.

As your ship approaches the speed of light, the time and distance the photon in the clock experiences approaches 0 as you say, that is relative to you. The time on the clock seems to slow down.

If you could reach the speed of light, the photon would no longer be able to move forward in the clock because the clock itself is already moving with the ship at the speed of light.

Hence the photon in the clock would be moving at the maximum speed it could attain. So it would not be able to go forward in the clock because the clock itself would be moving with the ship at the speed of light.

So, relative to you the photon is experiencing no time or distance. But in reality it would still be traveling at the speed of light across the expanse of space, via the ship.

 

[Polymath257]

Think of it this way Polymath,

Imagine one of those clocks that was on the links you guys gave me, where a photon bounced back and forth so many clicks per second.

This time let the clock be sitting on your lap, as you travel in the ship, in such a way that the photon moves back and forth(between the mirrors) in the same direction you are traveling.

As your ship approaches the speed of light, the time and distance the photon in the clock experiences approaches 0 as you say, that is relative to you. The clock seems to slow down.

No, that is NOT what I said. From *your* reference frame, there does not appear to be any slowing of time. You see your clock ticking at the same rate as ever. The photon moves at the speed of light, just like always. The distance across your spacecraft is the same as it was when you took off. That is in *your* reference frame.

What I said is that the time it takes to get to that star which is 30 million light years away (in the earth's frame) goes to zero, but so does the distance as measured in your frame.

If you could reach the speed of light, the photon would no longer be able to move forward in the clock because the clock itself is already moving with the ship at the speed of light.

And if you were going at 99.5% of the speed of light, the light would still be going past you at 100% of c *in your frame*. So, for any speed under that of light, the light moves away *at the speed of light* in *the frame of the ship*.

Hence the photon in the clock would be moving at the maximum speed it could attain. So it would not be able to go forward in the clock because the clock itself would be moving with the ship at the speed of light.

So, relative to you the photon is experiencing no time or distance. But in reality it would still be traveling at the speed of light across the expanse of space, via the ship.

Now, think about what would be happening if the ship was going at 99.5% of the speed of light. According to the earth, the difference in speeds is .5% of c. According to the ship, the difference in speeds is c.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

No, that is NOT what I said. From *your* reference frame, there does not appear to be any slowing of time. You see your clock ticking at the same rate as ever. The photon moves at the speed of light, just like always. The distance across your spacecraft is the same as it was when you took off. That is in *your* reference frame.

Once that clock itself was moving at the speed of light. How would the photon moving in the clock to track time be able to even gain any ground forward in the clock? Remember the photon would have to move forward in the same direction the clock is traveling. So once the clock reached the speed of light, how could the photon in the clock move forward at all?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

And if you were going at 99.5% of the speed of light, the light would still be going past you at 100% of c *in your frame*. So, for any speed under that of light, the light moves away *at the speed of light* in *the frame of the ship*.

It sounds like you believe the light can actually go faster than the speed of light then. Because if I can be traveling at 99.5% of the speed of light, and the photon can move past me at the speed of light, then it would be moving faster than the speed of light.

The photon would be gaining ground on 99.5% of the speed of light by the speed of light. Which to me defies all logic.

If what you say is true, then maybe it is to complex for me to understand.

 

[Polymath257]

It sounds like you believe the light can actually go faster than the speed of light then. Because if I can be traveling at 99.5% of the speed of light, and the photon can move past me at the speed of light, then it would be moving faster than the speed of light.

Nope. If I am moving at 99.5% of the speed of light with respect to you, we will *both* see the light as moving at 100% of c away from us.

The original experiment along these lines was done in the 1800's by Michelson and Morley. They wanted to measure the speed of the earth by looking at how much the speed of light changed in one direction vs another. They expected that in the direction of the Earth's motion, it would look like it was going away from us slightly slower and in the opposite direction, that it would look like it was going away from us slightly faster (the differences in each case being due to the motion of the Earth). The experiment they did was fully capable of doing these measurements, but they got a null answer: the measured speed of light in every direction was the same.

THAT is what it means for the speed of light to be constant in all frames! Even someone 'moving' will see light going away from them at the speed of light. Now, at least, you are beginning to see the strangeness of special relativity.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

It sounds like you believe the light can actually go faster than the speed of light then. Because if I can be traveling at 99.5% of the speed of light, and the photon can move past me at the speed of light, then it would be moving faster than the speed of light.

It doesn't. You measure the same speed because time slows down and distances shrink as you near the speed of light.

The photon would be gaining ground on 99.5% of the speed of light by the speed of light. Which to me defies all logic.

Your logic is based on the assumption that time and distance are the same for observers moving at different velocities. That assumption is wrong.

 

[viole]

Interesting , no desire to learn .

No desire to learn deepities

Ciao

- viole