"Senses withdrawn from sense-objects..."

[Martin]

Bhagavad Gita, 2.68:
"Therefore, O Strong-armed Warrior, he whose senses have been withdrawn from sense-objects is said to be well-established in his wisdom."

What's your understanding of "senses withdrawn from sense-objects" here?
Is it referring to meditation, or to a more general realignment?

 

[Sirona]

Welcome

I think it's about attaining (better) self-control. If you see a good-looking potential partner or an ice-cream van, and desire to have such things the beauty of the person or the taste of the ice-cream, then the person in question or the ice-cream are your sense-objects. Ideally, you're to develop detachment from all kinds of "cravings" and keep a calm, steady, equipoised, inwardly happy state of mind all the time. How you attain this depends on the tradition / "denomination" you follow. Some say meditation is the way, others say kirtan is, others say praying on beads (japa) is etc.

I once attended a lecture by a Hindu lady who gave the example of a tortoise. You're to withdraw your "senses" / your attachment just like a tortoise withdraws its head and legs into its shell.

What capitalism does is the exact opposite of this philosophy. You're to run after the next best thing advertized to you, the more dazzling colours and the noisier, the better.

Out of curiosity, which translation of the Bhagavad Gita are you reading?

 

[Vinayaka]

To me it's about attachment and detachment. Take a favorite trinket, for example. Can you throw it out? So yes, self-control, too, as Sirona said. Can we eat a tasty mango without going agog?

 

[Aupmanyav]

^^ One cannot order senses not to report the input and mind not to process it. One who has broken free from attachments is well-establshed in his wisdom (Tasya prajna pratishthita).

But a person free from all attachment and aversion and able to control his senses who follows principles - he obtains the benefit. BG 2.64
(Hare-Krishnas have not given the correct literal translation. The original verse does not talk about 'complete mercy of the Lord'.)

A person who has given up all desires for sense gratification, who lives free from desires, who has given up all sense of proprietorship and is devoid of false ego – he alone can attain real peace (sa shantim adhigacchati). BG 2.71

 

[stvdv]

Bhagavad Gita, 2.68:
"Therefore, O Strong-armed Warrior, he whose senses have been withdrawn from sense-objects is said to be well-established in his wisdom."

What's your understanding of "senses withdrawn from sense-objects" here?
Is it referring to meditation, or to a more general realignment?

Not meditation, it's "being detached" from desires from the senses

 

[Viraja]

@Sirona had given a perfect answer. I like to quote an example from puranas.

Once Brahma and his son Suka, a prominent sage, were walking down the heavens.

In one place, some lovely damsels were bathing totally naked.

On seeing Suka first, they totally disregarded his presence and continued having fun naked.

But upon Brahma walking behind Suka, they suddenly became totally conscious of his intrusion and hurried to clothe themselves.

When inquired, they said to Brahma, "Suka is withdrawn from his senses, whereas you are still allured by them".

 

[Martin]

Thanks all. I noticed that some of the preceding verses provide more context.
For example 2.61:
"He who has subdued his senses, should sit, controlled, intent on me.
The wisdom of one whose senses are subdued is well established."
And 2.64:
"One unyoked to hates and passions, though engaging with sense-objects, is self-controlled and self-restrained. That one attains tranquillity".

 

[Aupmanyav]

BhagawadGita is a Vaishnava scripture. All Hindus will not go by it. Shivas, Shaktas and Smartas will have a different view. There have been interpolations in Gita.

I read this verse as it Brahman is talking to me and not Krishna. As an 'Advaitist' (believer in non-duality, which is what Krishna advocates in many verses - to abandon dualities), I am situated in Brahman. There is no Krishna for me, I am a strong atheist though very religious.

In Verse 2.64, as I have already mentioned, 'prasadam adhigacchati' does not mean 'complete mercy of the Lord'. It means the person gets benefit / gift / prize.

Also, Verse 2.57:
"yaḥ sarvatra an-abhisnehah, tat tat prāpya śubha aśubham;
na abhinandati na dveṣṭi, tasya prajñā pratiṣṭhitā."

yaḥ — one who; sarvatra — everywhere; anabhisnehaḥ — without affection; tat — that; tat — that; prāpya — achieving; śubha — good; aśubham — evil; na — never; abhinandati — praises; na — never; dveṣṭi — envies; tasya — his; prajñā — perfect knowledge, intelligence; pratiṣṭhitā — fixed.

"One who everywhere receives whatever good or evil one may get without attachment, neither praising it nor despising it, his intelligence is firmly fixed."

The trick is anasakti (not being attached), eqaunimity.

 

[Martin]

BhagawadGita is a Vaishnava scripture. All Hindus will not go by it. Shivas, Shaktas and Smartas will have a different view. There have been interpolations in Gita.

I read this verse as it Brahman is talking to me and not Krishna. As an 'Advaitist' (believer in non-duality, which is what Krishna advocates in many verses - to abandon dualities), I am situated in Brahman. There is no Krishna for me, I am a strong atheist though very religious.

In Verse 2.64, as I have already mentioned, 'prasadam adhigacchati' does not mean 'complete mercy of the Lord'. It means the person gets benefit / gift / prize.

Also Verse 2.57:
"yaḥ sarvatra an-abhisnehah, tat tat prāpya śubha aśubham;
na abhinandati na dveṣṭi, tasya prajñā pratiṣṭhitā."

yaḥ — one who; sarvatra — everywhere; anabhisnehaḥ — without affection; tat — that; tat — that; prāpya — achieving; śubha — good; aśubham — evil; na — never; abhinandati — praises; na — never; dveṣṭi — envies; tasya — his; prajñā — perfect knowledge, intelligence; pratiṣṭhitā — fixed.

"One who everywhere is unaffected by whatever good or evil one may obtain, neither praising it nor despising it, his intelligence is firmly fixed."

The trick is anasakti (unattachment), eqaunimity.

The 'Gita is a Vaishnava scripture? Could you explain why that is?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Because Krishna is supposed to be an avatara of Lord Vishnu. Shaivas worship Shiva as the principal deity, Shaktas worship Mother Goddess Durga as the principal deity, Smartas worship five or six deities as equal. Each view has its own scriptures, although no one denies other Gods and Goddesses. All are eligible to study and quote from any scripture (in total, 18 old puranas). Hinduism is a sort of Commonwealth or you can say, European Union; and the common currency is "dharma" (your duties).

Brāhma: Brahma Purana, Padma Purana
Surya: Brahma Vaivarta Purana
Agni: Agni Purana
Śaiva: Shiva Purana, Linga Purana, Skanda Purana, Varaha Purana, Vāmana Purana, Kūrma Purana, Mārkandeya Purana, Brahmānda Purana
Vaiṣṇava: Vishnu Purana, Bhagavata Purana, Nāradeya Purana, Garuda Purana, Vayu Purana, Varaha Purana, Matsya Purana, Bhavishya Purana
Śakta: Devi-Bhagavata Purana, Markandeya Purana, Brahmanda Purana, Skanda Purana
Puranas - Wikipedia

 

[The Crimson Universe]

The 'Gita is a Vaishnava scripture? Could you explain why that is?

Hindus believe that Krishna is an incarnation of Lord Vishnu.
And since Arjuna is being enlightened on the battlefield by none other than Vishnu Himself, people consider the Gita as a Vaishnava scripture.

Other Vaishnava scriptures include Garuda purana, Kalki purana, Bhagavat Purana, Vishnu purana etc.

In the Garuda purana, Lord Vishnu imparts knowledge to Garuda, the half-bird, half-man creature about various hells, punishments, funeral rites etc.

In Bhagavat purana, the leelas or past times of Lord Vishnu/Krishna are being given.

In Kalki purana, Lord Vishnu's incarnation as prince Kalki is being mentioned, like how at the end of this kali yuga (age of ignorance) and at the beginning of the satya yuga (golden age) the Lord will incarnate as Kalki to vanquish all evil forces from the face of the Earth.

 

[Martin]

Hindus believe that Krishna is an incarnation of Lord Vishnu.
And since Arjuna is being enlightened on the battlefield by none other than Vishnu Himself, people consider the Gita as a Vaishnava scripture.

Other Vaishnava scriptures include Garuda purana, Kalki purana, Bhagavat Purana, Vishnu purana etc.

In the Garuda purana, Lord Vishnu imparts knowledge to Garuda, the half-bird, half-man creature about various hells, punishments, funeral rites etc.

In Bhagavat purana, the leelas or past times of Lord Vishnu/Krishna are being given.

In Kalki purana, Lord Vishnu's incarnation as prince Kalki is being mentioned, like how at the end of this kali yuga (age of ignorance) and at the beginning of the satya yuga (golden age) the Lord will incarnate as Kalki to vanquish all evil forces from the face of the Earth.

So where do the Upanishads fit in?

 

[The Crimson Universe]

What's your understanding of "senses withdrawn from sense-objects" here?
Is it referring to meditation, or to a more general realignment?

As Sirona explained above, we only need to keep the mind in a state of equilibrium and should not crave for objects that are pleasing to our senses.
Its like living the life of a monk.
Abstention from all kinds of pleasurable activities like sex, wine, eating excess food, shopping, watching movies, playing video games, partying etc. should be practiced.

Some control their cravings by taking the path of bhakti (love and devotion towards God) while others practice meditation.

In my opinion, the path of meditation is not for everyone. Not only our minds are polluted due to Lord's energy Maya, but our minds are also very restless. Countless thoughts (both good and nasty ones) are coming and going all the time. It is hard for us commom men to subdue the mind.

That's why, in order to purify the mind from all sorts of nasty unwanted thoughts, Lord Krishna/Vishnu has prescribed in Gita the path of karma yoga at the end of chapter 2 and the complete chapter 3 as well.

Karma yoga is nothing but doing one's wordly duties without craving for the results or fruits of our actions. By doing so one purifies and calms the mind. Only then he becomes eligible for meditation.
Bhakti yoga is another path, (it is the easiest method) using which we can purify our inner selves.

I was a hedonist all through out my teens and twenties. Couldn't live without masturbating for more than 3 days.
I had a real hard time controlling my sexual cravings. Then in my early 30s i started to restrain myself from all sorts of pleasurable activities. At first it was really hard. The more i said to myself, that i won't indulge in them, the more i ended up doing them. lol.
Then i was introduced to vaishnavism and their path of bhakti yoga. I tried that path for a couple of years but it didn't suit me because no matter how much i prayed to the Lord, He didn't answer my prayers. So i took the path of jnana (knowledge) and started reading scriptures. This actually helped me in getting rid of all worldly desires. The more i indulged myself in deep studies, the more i felt purified from inside. The sexual cravings don't bother me anymore.
But i'm still working on other cravings (like collecting comics and having pizzas with extra cheese etc.) Maybe one day i will succeed.

 

[Martin]

As Sirona explained above, we only need to keep the mind in a state of equilibrium and should not crave for objects that are pleasing to our senses.
Its like living the life of a monk.
Abstention from all kinds of pleasurable activities like sex, wine, eating excess food, shopping, watching movies, playing video games, partying etc. should be practiced.

Some control their cravings by taking the path of bhakti (love and devotion towards God) while others practice meditation.

In my opinion, the path of meditation is not for everyone. Not only our minds are polluted due to Lord's energy Maya, but our minds are also very restless. Countless thoughts (both good and nasty ones) are coming and going all the time. It is hard for us commom men to subdue the mind.

That's why, in order to purify the mind from all sorts of nasty unwanted thoughts, Lord Krishna/Vishnu has prescribed in Gita the path of karma yoga at the end of chapter 2 and the complete chapter 3 as well.

Karma yoga is nothing but doing one's wordly duties without craving for the results or fruits of our actions. By doing so one purifies and calms the mind. Only then he becomes eligible for meditation.
Bhakti yoga is another path, (it is the easiest method) using which we can purify our inner selves.

I was a hedonist all through out my teens and twenties. Couldn't live without masturbating for more than 3 days.
I had a real hard time controlling my sexual cravings. Then in my early 30s i started to restrain myself from all sorts of pleasurable activities. At first it was really hard. The more i said to myself, that i won't indulge in them, the more i ended up doing them. lol.
Then i was introduced to vaishnavism and their path of bhakti yoga. I tried that path for a couple of years but it didn't suit me because no matter how much i prayed to the Lord. He didn't answer my prayers. So i took the path of jnana (knowledge) and started reading scriptures. This actually helped me in getting rid of all worldly desires. The more i indulged myself in deep studies, the more i felt purified from inside. The sexual cravings don't bother me anymore.
But i'm still working on other cravings (like collecting comics and having pizzas with extra cheese etc.) Maybe one day i will succeed.

There's a Buddhist practice called "guarding the senses", which sounds rather similar. I also see this as being less enthralled with transient sense-objects, having connected with something deeper, something more fulfilling. Attention naturally moves inwards, rather than outwards.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

So where do the Upanishads fit in?

The upanishads are the end portion of the four vedas and are considered to be the most important portion of the four vedas. They speak of the relationship between Atman (the drop) and Brahman (the ocean).

The vedas were brought to the Indian subcontinent by the Aryans at around 1500-500 BC.
Hindus believe that long before the arrival of the Aryans the content of the vedas were recieved by the ancient sages as revelations while they were meditating.

Since the knowledge of the upanishads/vedas were not written or made up by any mortal, and were instead recieved directly from Brahman (probably from saguna brahman or personal God) they are considered the ultimate truth.

The puranas on the other hand were compiled much later (around 500 BC - 500 AD) and are thought to be written by mortals (priests) and so they are not that important.
It mostly contains stories that glorifies various personal Gods like Shiva, Devi, Vishnu etc. There are also Do's and Dont's in the puranas. They are meant for the common man and how people should live their lives. And not meant for those who are seeking the ultimate truth (Brahman).

 

[SalixIncendium]

I like Sankaracharya's commentary on this:

In the case of a man of steady wisdom in whom has arisen discriminating knowledge, those which are these ordinary and Vedic dealings cease on the eradication of ignorance, they being effects of ignorance. And ignorance ceases because it is opposed to Knowledge.

Swami, Gambhirananda. Bhagavad Gita : With the commentary of Shankaracharya (Kindle Locations 1865-1866). Advaita Ashrama. Kindle Edition.
​

Krishna clarifies what he said in verse 68 with this in verse 69:

The self-restrained man keeps awake during that which is night for all creatures. That during which creatures keep awake, it is night to the seeing sage.

Swami, Gambhirananda. Bhagavad Gita : With the commentary of Shankaracharya (Kindle Locations 1870-1871). Advaita Ashrama. Kindle Edition.
​

Sankaracharya's commentary on this verse:

Saṁyamī , the self-restrained man, whose organs are under control, that is, the yogī who has arisen from the sleep of ignorance; jāgarti , keeps awake; tasyām , in that (night) characterized as the Reality, the supreme Goal. That night of ignorance, characterized by the distinctions of subjects and objects, yasyām in which; bhūtāni , the creatures, who are really which night they are like dreamers in sleep; sā niśā , it is night; paśyataḥ , to the seeing; muneḥ , sage, who perceives the Reality that is the supreme Goal, because that (night) is ignorance by nature.

Therefore, rites and duties are enjoined only during the state of ignorance, not in the state of enlightenment. For, when Knowledge dawns, ignorance becomes eradicated like the darkness of night after sunrise. Before the rise of Knowledge, ignorance, accepted as a valid means of knowledge and presenting itself in the different forms of actions, means, and results, becomes the cause of all rites and duties. It cannot reasonably become the source of rites and duties (after Realization) when it is understood as an invalid means of knowledge. For an agent becomes engaged in actions when he has the idea, ‘Actions have been enjoined as a duty for me by the Vedas, which are a valid means of knowledge’; but not when he understands that ‘all this is mere ignorance, like the night’.

Swami, Gambhirananda. Bhagavad Gita : With the commentary of Shankaracharya (Kindle Locations 1876-1888). Advaita Ashrama. Kindle Edition.​

 

[ajay0]

Bhagavad Gita, 2.68:
"Therefore, O Strong-armed Warrior, he whose senses have been withdrawn from sense-objects is said to be well-established in his wisdom."

What's your understanding of "senses withdrawn from sense-objects" here?
Is it referring to meditation, or to a more general realignment?

This practice is also known as Pratyahara. Pratyahara means withdrawal of senses from all external sensory objects.

Pratyahara - Wikipedia

In its ideal state, it also includes detachment from all inner mental objects entertained by the imagination through memory or habitual,compulsive thinking. (For example one can abstain from cheese sandwich externally due to dietary needs, but can entertain it in the mind.)

Detachment from both outer sensory objects and inner mental objects through pratyahara, dharana and dhyana (meditation) results in a thoughtless state of awareness.

Outer sensory objects stimulates thoughts and consequent emotions within us. Similarly, our inner feelings and memories can also result in unconscious thinking and emoting.

By practicing detachment from thoughts and emotions from outer and inner sources of stimulation, one enters into the thoughtless state of awareness.

This is what Krishna means by the verse in the op. Wisdom is this thoughtless state of awareness, which is the fundamental state or natural state.

It is not intellectual knowledge but the pure state of consciousness, which is characteristic of bliss and peace.

In meditation when one reaches a state of peace and joy, it is actually this state of pure consciousness which is also the natural state or the Self or Atman or Being that is experienced.

This is a very good topic, which can bring much insight into the nature of the mind and the subtler Self.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So where do the Upanishads fit in?

Upanishads are considered one of the four parts of each Veda - Samhita (main book), Aranyaka, Brahmanas and Upanishads.
Upanishads - Wikipedia (Main Upanishads)
Rig Veda - Aitareya (also Kausitaki)
Sama Veda - Chāndogya, Kena (also Svetaswatara, Maitrayani)
Krishna Yajur Veda - Katha, Taittiriya
Shukla Yajur Veda - Isha, Brihadaranyaka
Atharva Veda - Mandukya, Mundaka, Prashna

 

[Aupmanyav]

Hindus believe that long before the arrival of the Aryans the content of the vedas were recieved by the ancient sages as revelations while they were meditating.

History will say otherwise. Aryans filtered into India around 2,000-1,500 BCE. After that there was hardly any contact of Indian Aryans with their counterparts in Central Asia. Indian Aryans were completely unaware of the rise of Zoroaster till the Western fringes of India were occupied by the Sassanids. They had become two people. The Vedas were brought in by Aryans but there were additions in all parts of Vedas after contact with indigenous Hinduism, by the later Aryan-Hindu mix.

 

[Martin]

This practice is also known as Pratyahara. Pratyahara means withdrawal of senses from all external sensory objects.

Pratyahara - Wikipedia

In its ideal state, it also includes detachment from all inner mental objects entertained by the imagination through memory or habitual,compulsive thinking. (For example one can abstain from cheese sandwich externally due to dietary needs, but can entertain it in the mind.)

Detachment from both outer sensory objects and inner mental objects through pratyahara, dharana and dhyana (meditation) results in a thoughtless state of awareness.

Outer sensory objects stimulates thoughts and consequent emotions within us. Similarly, our inner feelings and memories can also result in unconscious thinking and emoting.

By practicing detachment from thoughts and emotions from outer and inner sources of stimulation, one enters into the thoughtless state of awareness.

This is what Krishna means by the verse in the op. Wisdom is this thoughtless state of awareness, which is the fundamental state or natural state.

It is not intellectual knowledge but the pure state of consciousness, which is characteristic of bliss and peace.

In meditation when one reaches a state of peace and joy, it is actually this state of pure consciousness which is also the natural state or the Self or Atman or Being that is experienced.

This is a very good topic, which can bring much insight into the nature of the mind and the subtler Self.

Do you take sense-objects in the OP quote to include "internal" mind-objects like thoughts and feelings? I assumed it meant "external" sense-objects.