Seuss contra Trump

[beenherebeforeagain]

It kind of goes with the territory of wanting to be President--wanting to have power --that those wanting power will tend toward more autocratic, authoritarian practices and policies. Yes, EVERY president of the last 100 years, or more, with the possible exception of Gerald Ford (who had the office thrust upon him), have displayed this, and whether any are more or less like Hitler, Stalin, or whomever is pretty much irrelevant: THEY ALL WANT POWER, and the people who support them (and I'm not really talking about voters, here) WANT THEM TO HAVE THAT POWER.

 

[fantome profane]

I've a better cartoon....

As we see in this thread & the larger political discussion,
a great many are drawing parallels between Trump & Hitler.
And they claim it's increasing.
They say it's wise to watch out for Trump becoming more Hitlerian.
They claim "history".
But they don't offer the beef.
In reality, it's not analysis, discussion or debate...just an empty meme.

And you repeatedly link Hitler with us "deplorables" (ie, all Trump voters).
Rubbish.

I know you have been wanting to use that image again (or one like it). So congratulations.

I don’t like the Hitler comparisons either, but for perhaps different reasons than you. I think they are a distraction. The last week we have seen a huge increase in immigrant children being ripped away from their families. And instead of talking about what this U.S. administration has done in 2018, we are talking about history.

I don’t know if Trump is as bad as Hitler, or if he is worse, or less bad than Hitler. I will let future historians puzzle that out.

But even if your argument is that Trump is not as bad as Hitler, that is a terrible defense of the man and his actions. How much evil can be done and defended by saying “still not as bad as Hitler”?

 

[fantome profane]

It's fascinating to watch as an increasingly angry Basket of Deplorables protests too much, perhaps because even they recognize that the moral equivalency is not that between Trump and Hitler, but between tribalism and tribalism and between complicity and complicity.

I have been tentatively and temporarily reassured by some of the things I have seen in the last week. Governors refusing to send the national guard, airlines refusing to transport migrant children, and general protests over the policy of zero tolerance. I am somewhat, hesitantly reassured that the comparison of Trump/Hitler is less relevant because the U.S. 2018 is not Nazi Germany.

Do you understand what I am saying? Am I being too optimistic?

 

[Revoltingest]

I know you have been wanting to use that image again (or one like it). So congratulations.

I didn't want to use the same old one which graces so many threads,
so I searched for one with more personality. Glad you approve.

I don’t like the Hitler comparisons either, but for perhaps different reasons than you. I think they are a distraction.

That might be my biggest reason.
It's ahead of being polarizing, & of being unbelievably deluded.

The last week we have seen a huge increase in immigrant children being ripped away from their families. And instead of talking about what this U.S. administration has done in 2018, we are talking about history.

I don’t know if Trump is as bad as Hitler, or if he is worse, or less bad than Hitler. I will let future historians puzzle that out.

You really cannot discern if Trump is worse or better than Hitler?
I wonder about your standards of evaluation.

I'm going out on a limb here with a prediction.....
Trump will be less evil than Hitler.
- No concentration camps.
- No showering leading to ovening.
- No invading Poland.
- No Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.
- No bombing of London.

But even if your argument is that Trump is not as bad as Hitler, that is a terrible defense of the man and his actions.

It isn't a defense of Trump.
It's a criticism of the claim that Trump is/will be similar to/the same as Hitler.
Those claiming it have extraordinarily weak rationalizations for it.

If you called Trump a fetching ballerina, I'd dispute that too.
But it wouldn't be a defense.

How much evil can be done and defended by saying “still not as bad as Hitler”?

What do you believe Trump has done which rises to Hitlerian heights?

This reminds me of my sister-in-law.
Her family is eastern European, Jewish, & all Democrats.
They lost some members in the nastiness leading up to WW2.
She still says GW Bush is worse than Hitler.
I no longer discuss politics with her.
When common ground is entirely lacking, it's better that way.

 

[fantome profane]

What do you believe Trump has done which rises to Hitlerian heights?

The simple fact that you would ask me that question shows that you completely misunderstood my post. Let me try to be clear.

I will not be making any comparisons between Donald Trump and Hitler. I have not done that, and I am not going to do that now. I will leave that to future historians. You are doing that with your “predictions”. I am not playing that game.

I will say that Donald Trumps policies have been incredibly cruel and have done and will continue great damage. I will not opine as to whether they “rise to Hitlerian height” or not. But they certainly do not need to do so before I will condemn them.

Is that clear now?

 

[Revoltingest]

The simple fact that you would ask me that question shows that you completely misunderstood my post. Let me try to be clear.

I will not be making any comparisons between Donald Trump and Hitler. I have not done that, and I am not going to do that now. I will leave that to future historians. You are doing that with your “predictions”. I am not playing that game.

I will say that Donald Trumps policies have been incredibly cruel and have done and will continue great damage. I will not opine as to whether they “rise to Hitlerian height” or not. But they certainly do not need to do so before I will condemn them.

Is that clear now?

It was clear before.
If you're unable to evaluate which is worse, Hitler or Trump, then
it's reasonable to assume you've some basis for comparing them
in the first place. And lo, you've cited his being "incredibly cruel".

 

[fantome profane]

It was clear before.
If you're unable to evaluate which is worse, Hitler or Trump, then
it's reasonable to assume you've some basis for comparing them
in the first place. And lo, you've cited his being "incredibly cruel".

Yes. And?

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes. And?

I was done.

 

[idav]

Tackling things in order......
May I assume that you mean hostility, rather than "aversion"?
I ask because Trump is an avid user of all media.
This hostility is mutual. It reminds me of Nixon's war with them.
But a rancorous relationship doesn't suggest a parallel with Hitler.
What steps do you think Trump has taken to limit press freedom.

Trump is hardly alone in using economic sanctions. This is a
standard technique of modern Americastanian politics.
Looking at Iran, he's only proposing a return to prior policy.
If you refer to tariffs, Americastan has waxed & waned on
using them before. This is nothing new.
Did Hitler even use economic sanctions or tariffs?
He was more into Blitzkriege.

Consorting with dictators around the world is typical of presidents.
Moreover, it's even useful. What if Reagan had never met with
Gorbachev? We could've seen an uninterrupted cold war.
So I reject criticism that he's become cozy with Kim Jong Un.
Instead of meeting with him to form a modern incarnation of the Axis
Powers, I see an attempt to reconcile the two Koreas.
That is about as unHitlerian as one can be.

I agree that Trump is no liberal or libertarian.
But then, few presidents lean in either direction.
So this is hardly a damning parallel with Hitler.

Is "stripping the poor of benefits" a Hitlerian feature?
And is this really his agenda, or is it just a criticism
due to removing the IRS penalties for not buying
health insurance?

Btw, the frubal wasn't for agreement, but rather for your
straightforward & elaborated addressing of the issues.
(Sometimes others misread my frubular intent.)

He hates media unless it is non critical. He wishes to discredit all media unless it praises him.

It isn’t sanctions but his wish to create all out trade war and his isolationist approach.

Trumps agreement with dictators include, wanting to be president forever, feeling a murderous dictator “gets him”, agreeing with cheating tactics, locking up opponents, to name a few things. Meeting with Kim wasn’t an issue, praising him and praising the fact that people stand at attention to him while saying he wants that just a few days after alienating allies that are free democratic nations is a huge issue.

Fascism is anti-liberal which is much more a conservative Republican thing. Remember the question is how he is racist.

The issue is making the oligarchy more powerful whole stripping the common citizen of power especially the poor.

There are many definitions of fascism but Hitler is pretty much a gold standard so being fascist makes people.like Hitler
21st Century Fascism: Trump Style – Countercurrents

 

[Revoltingest]

He hates media unless it is non critical. He wishes to discredit all media unless it praises him.

He has a love hate relationship with media.
How is this Hitlerian?

It isn’t sanctions but his wish to create all out trade war and his isolationist approach.

We'll have to see how that plays out.
The tariffs could be to create a trade war, as you say...
...or they could be a negotiating ploy...or just tariffs,
which are more FDRian than Hitlerian.
You don't really know his intent.

Still, Trump is far from an isolationist, since he's still
continuing Americastan's role in policing the world.

Trumps agreement with dictators include, wanting to be president forever, feeling a murderous dictator “gets him”, agreeing with cheating tactics, locking up opponents, to name a few things. Meeting with Kim wasn’t an issue, praising him and praising the fact that people stand at attention to him while saying he wants that just a few days after alienating allies that are free democratic nations is a huge issue.

This isn't really establishing a Trump-Hitler parallel.
While prior presidents have allied with dictators,
I don't see Trump forging new such relationships.
Do you?

Fascism is anti-liberal which is much more a conservative Republican thing. Remember the question is how he is racist.

You believe Trump is a racist & anti-liberal.
Isn't that what the lefts says of all Republicans?

The issue is making the oligarchy more powerful whole stripping the common citizen of power especially the poor.

I thought the "oligarchy" was in power during Obama's reign too.
So I've been told by lefties here on RF.

There are many definitions of fascism but Hitler is pretty much a gold standard so being fascist makes people.like Hitler
21st Century Fascism: Trump Style – Countercurrents

Your reasons are all speculation, generalizations, red herrings, & demonization.
I made a better case for Bill Clinton being Hitler than you have for Trump.
At least I cited actual policy & attempted policy.

 

[sayak83]

I understand that Trump has autocratic tendencies & many other faults.
But this does not a Hitler make.
What do you see in legislation signed, in administrative rules issued/revoked,
in policies enforced which would send us down the path of Nazi Germany?

One could make a better case that Bill Clinton was a Nazi.
- He favored expanding warrantless searches.
- He favored further curbing the right to a jury trial (Petty Offense Doctrine).
- His 3 strikes law greatly increased incarceration.
- He had 2 people jailed for insulting him (Mr & Mrs Mendoza).
- He committed & suborned perjury with impunity.
- He opposed gay marriage, & implemented don't-ask-don't-tell.
- He demonized opposition by claiming a "vast right wing conspiracy".
But should I compare Bill to Hitler, or claim he was a nascent Hitler?
Of course not.

I do not know. Clinton was before my time.

 

[Revoltingest]

I do not know. Clinton was before my time.

To compare presidents with Hitler requires context.
Without knowing it, one would miss Trump being
not so different from so many before him.

 

[sayak83]

To compare presidents with Hitler requires context.
Without knowing it, one would miss Trump being
not so different from so many before him.

I did not compare him to Hitler. He is just an opportunist who is exploiting the newly arising fascist tendencies in politics to gain and keep the Presidency.

 

[Revoltingest]

I did not compare him to Hitler.

Woohoo!
That means detente for the rest of this evening....er, morning.

 

[idav]

He has a love hate relationship with media.
How is this Hitlerian?

We'll have to see how that plays out.
The tariffs could be to create a trade war, as you say...
...or they could be a negotiating ploy...or just tariffs,
which are more FDRian than Hitlerian.
You don't really know his intent.

Still, Trump is far from an isolationist, since he's still
continuing Americastan's role in policing the world.

This isn't really establishing a Trump-Hitler parallel.
While prior presidents have allied with dictators,
I don't see Trump forging new such relationships.
Do you?

You believe Trump is a racist & anti-liberal.
Isn't that what the lefts says of all Republicans?

I thought the "oligarchy" was in power during Obama's reign too.
So I've been told by lefties here on RF.

Your reasons are all speculation, generalizations, red herrings, & demonization.
I made a better case for Bill Clinton being Hitler than you have for Trump.
At least I cited actual policy & attempted policy.

I dont know why you keep trying to bring up Hitler. The post I responded to was asked how things are fascist. I answered and have plenty of examples. Nazi Germany is not the only fascists country, there was Italy at a time and Japan as the article noted. Also someone else’s doing it in the past doesn’t mean it isn’t fascist. The combination of things is the issue. They keep piling up making Trump more and more like an authoritarian fascist dictator wannabe. He wants to squash media that isn’t positive about Trump, He wants to be a dictator as he said about his love for Russia, China and N Korea. He has now created concentration camps for children. He has alienated us from the friendly allies and only brought us closer to countries that are civil rights nightmares. He is on a trade war path which is current, you don’t have to see the future, it’s happening now. If anything Trump is doing everything he can to solidify the elites power. I don’t care about whataboutism this is about what is currently happening. I don’t know who is racist but apparently many republicans want authoritarian leader possibly a theocracy. The parralels for Trump and his anti constitutional views have not been so prominent under one president. Oh he’s like this with Clinton and like this with FDR and like this with Obama and like this with Wilson or Reagan, Nixon, well we are talking about one person having all the worst traights I can think of from all our past presidents rolled up into one orange man. There are a lot of comparisons, we’d be here all day.

Trumps America
“Fascism is a system of government marked by centralization under an authoritarian dictator (having) a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, (encouraging) violent suppression of the opposition, (which) typically (practices) a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism (Source: Wikipedia).”
IS TRUMP IMPOSING FASCISM ON AMERICA?


 

[sandy whitelinger]

Oh, Jebus....another Hitler thread.
This Nazi equivalence stuff is.....rubbish.

Godwin's Law in the op. Is this a record

 

[Revoltingest]

Godwin's Law in the op. Is this a record

Did you read the cartoon in the OP?
Do you know its history?
Do you think "Adolph" is about meat tenderizer?
Adolph's® Seasoned Meat Tenderizer

This is rich....the OP makes it about Hitler.
The 2nd post (mine) objected to making it about Hitler.
Godwin's Law is now such an objection?

 

[Revoltingest]

I dont know why you keep trying to bring up Hitler.

The OP is about Hitler.
I responded to it.
Many others responded mine.
It's easy, in this flurry of exchanges, to miss your being above that morass.
I'll work on being more attentive.

The post I responded to was asked how things are fascist. I answered and have plenty of examples. Nazi Germany is not the only fascists country, there was Italy at a time and Japan as the article noted. Also someone else’s doing it in the past doesn’t mean it isn’t fascist. The combination of things is the issue. They keep piling up making Trump more and more like an authoritarian fascist dictator wannabe. He wants to squash media that isn’t positive about Trump, He wants to be a dictator as he said about his love for Russia, China and N Korea. He has now created concentration camps for children. He has alienated us from the friendly allies and only brought us closer to countries that are civil rights nightmares. He is on a trade war path which is current, you don’t have to see the future, it’s happening now. If anything Trump is doing everything he can to solidify the elites power. I don’t care about whataboutism this is about what is currently happening. I don’t know who is racist but apparently many republicans want authoritarian leader possibly a theocracy. The parralels for Trump and his anti constitutional views have not been so prominent under one president. Oh he’s like this with Clinton and like this with FDR and like this with Obama and like this with Wilson or Reagan, Nixon, well we are talking about one person having all the worst traights I can think of from all our past presidents rolled up into one orange man. There are a lot of comparisons, we’d be here all day.

Trumps America
“Fascism is a system of government marked by centralization under an authoritarian dictator (having) a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, (encouraging) violent suppression of the opposition, (which) typically (practices) a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism (Source: Wikipedia).”
IS TRUMP IMPOSING FASCISM ON AMERICA?


As for Trump wanting to be a dictator, I don't see that as knowable.
His "anti constitutional" views are a matter of perspective.
I saw Bill Clinton as far worse in abusing the Constitution.
(He was very anti-liberty.)
It depends upon how one reads the law, & where weight is given.
So far, I don't find Trump seizing dictatorial powers.
What have you seen in this vein?

 

[idav]

As for Trump wanting to be a dictator, I don't see that as knowable.

His words he wears his heart on his sleeve, in other words says what he thinks.

I saw Bill Clinton as far worse in abusing the Constitution.
(He was very anti-liberty.)

Of course you do but that’s very nineties. We are talking about the current president and I did acknowledge has similarities (very bad ones) to several US presidents as well as the fascist leaders from Germany Italy and Japans past. All the horrible things you can pick and choose from history all rolled into one orange man.

It depends upon how one reads the law, & where weight is given.

Of course and Hitler, I mean Trump treats people who disagree with him, non-white foreigners and non-straights with a heavy hand.

So far, I don't find Trump seizing dictatorial powers.
What have you seen in this vein?

I didn’t say he is a dictator, he is a wannabe dictator cause he says/hints it every chance he gets.

 

[Revoltingest]

His words he wears his heart on his sleeve, in other words says what he thinks.

Of course you do but that’s very nineties. We are talking about the current president and I did acknowledge has similarities (very bad ones) to several US presidents as well as the fascist leaders from Germany Italy and Japans past. All the horrible things you can pick and choose from history all rolled into one orange man.

The problem with labeling Trump as a "fascist" is that applying the same criteria
to other presidents would yield the same result for some. Since we agree (I hope)
that Americastan isn't a fascist country, this would be inconsistent.

Of course and Hitler, I mean Trump treats people who disagree with him, non-white foreigners and non-straights with a heavy hand.
I didn’t say he is a dictator, he is a wannabe dictator cause he says/hints it every chance he gets.

Looking over Americastanian presidential history, I just don't see evidence
that Trump stands out as a fascist. I'd certainly prefer that he be more of a
civil libertarian, but I say the same of all presidents I've observed. Trump
isn't even the worst in that regard.

It's common for presidents to try to steer the country in a fashion which
curbs liberty. Trump, Nixon, Clinton, LBJ, Reagan....all have done things
anti-libertarian. It makes sense to fight the actual efforts authoritarian,
rather than apply extreme partisan labels.