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Several questions for Evolution's applied logic

ID_Neon

Member
1) Is Evolution directional?:
a) no direction - every adaptation has equal probability to survive
b) yes -recessive every less adapted population will survive (less complex)
c) yes -progressive every more adapted population will survive

2) is evolution cooperative or competitive?

3) can a competitive system be self regulating (rely on others) if that is contrary to it's own survival?

4) is evolution compatible with a cooperative or competitive system
Or both?

5) is nature competitive or harmonious?
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
Oh, yes. I almost forgot.

books
 

ID_Neon

Member
Let's not be facetious Skwim.

1) I bet you never applied these questions to your god (Evolution).

2) I am also willing to bet I'm more educated than you, but we don't need to compare cok sizes, you can just answer the questions an form a logical argument for Evolution.
 

Photonic

Ad astra!
Let's not be facetious Skwim.

1) I bet you never applied these questions to your god (Evolution).

2) I am also willing to bet I'm more educated than you, but we don't need to compare cok sizes, you can just answer the questions an form a logical argument for Evolution.

I'm willing to compare my education if you are. :)
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
ID Neon said:
Let's not be facetious Skwim.

1) I bet you [Skwim] never applied these questions to your god (Evolution).

2) I am also willing to bet I'm more educated than you, but we don't need to compare **** sizes, you can just answer the questions and form a logical argument for Evolution.

As far as education is concerned, even creationists who have Ph.d.'s in biology, and/or biochemistry, are a very small minority since in the U.S., over 99% of experts accept naturalistic or theistic evolution. Even Michael Behe, who has a Ph.d. in biochemistry, and had the help of the Discovery Institute, lost at the Dover trial. Interestingly, the judge was appointed by a Republican president, is not an activist judge, and is a Christian.

If you know a lot about evolution, you could easily prevail in debates with many skeptics at this forum, but the same could be said when skeptic experts in evolution debate creationists who are not experts in evolution. I do not need to beat you in a debate on evolution when it makes good sense for me to appeal to a very large consensus of experts who accept naturalistic or theistic evolution, who all use their real names, and some of whom have written peer reviewed papers for science publications. I doubt that you have written any peer reviewede papers for science magazines. Even if you have, you would still be part of a very small minority of creationists who are experts.

If you are actually confident of your scientific knowledge and debating abilities, and want to reach as many people as possible, I suggest that you challenge some college professors at leading universities to public debates.

If you are positing that a God exists, since I am an agnostic, I do not have a problem with that. However, if you are positing that the God of a religious book exists, I would have a problem with that. If a God exists, no one knows who he is, and what his agenda are.
 

ID_Neon

Member
What answer would a professor of these fields give to these questions?

Question 6) why would sexual reproduction evolve at all?
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
1) Is Evolution directional?:
a) no direction - every adaptation has equal probability to survive
b) yes -recessive every less adapted population will survive (less complex)
c) yes -progressive every more adapted population will survive
D) not always... but usually. Evolution is a combination of genetic drift (non directional) and selective (directional) pressures.

2) is evolution cooperative or competitive?
both... depending on what is evolving. ie. predator/prey interactions are competitive but mutualisms are cooperative.

3) can a competitive system be self regulating (rely on others) if that is contrary to it's own survival?
I'm not sure I understand this question. Can you rephrase it? :shrug:

4) is evolution compatible with a cooperative or competitive system
Or both?
both.

5) is nature competitive or harmonious?
both... harmony doesn't mean a lack of competition.

wa:do
 

Noaidi

slow walker
Is Evolution directional?:
a) no direction - every adaptation has equal probability to survive
b) yes -recessive every less adapted population will survive (less complex)
c) yes -progressive every more adapted population will survive

The evolution of organisms is dependent on current environmental conditions. What may be deemed as 'progressive' (to use your term) may be of benefit to the organism today, but a shift in conditions may render that same organism at an adaptive disadvantage tomorrow. 'Progressive' and 'recessive' are terms not really applicable to evolution.

2) is evolution cooperative or competitive?
Cooperation and competition are both features of evolution and ecology. It's not an either / or scenario.

3) can a competitive system be self regulating (rely on others) if that is contrary to it's own survival?
Isn't this a contradiction?

4) is evolution compatible with a cooperative or competitive system
Or both?
Again, depends on the species involved.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
What answer would a professor of these fields give to these questions?

Question 6) why would sexual reproduction evolve at all?
Because it increases genetic variation (super important) and reduces vulnerability to parasites (not a bad plus). This is a pretty basic question that you cover in intro to biology. ;)

wa:do
 

Photonic

Ad astra!
As far as education is concerned, even creationists who have Ph.d.'s in biology, and/or biochemistry, are a very small minority since in the U.S., over 99% of experts accept naturalistic or theistic evolution. Even Michael Behe, who has a Ph.d. in biochemistry, and had the help of the Discovery Institute, lost at the Dover trial. Interestingly, the judge was appointed by a Republican president, is not an activist judge, and is a Christian.

If you know a lot about evolution, you could easily prevail in debates with many skeptics at this forum, but the same could be said when skeptic experts in evolution debate creationists who are not experts in evolution. I do not need to beat you in a debate on evolution when it makes good sense for me to appeal to a very large consensus of experts who accept naturalistic or theistic evolution, who all use their real names, and some of whom have written peer reviewed papers for science publications. I doubt that you have written any peer reviewede papers for science magazines. Even if you have, you would still be part of a very small minority of creationists who are experts.

If you are actually confident of your scientific knowledge and debating abilities, and want to reach as many people as possible, I suggest that you challenge some college professors at leading universities to public debates.

If you are positing that a God exists, since I am an agnostic, I do not have a problem with that. However, if you are positing that the God of a religious book exists, I would have a problem with that. If a God exists, no one knows who he is, and what his agenda are.

Or if he is even aware.
 

Noaidi

slow walker
I am also willing to bet I'm more educated than you...

OK, time to call you out on this.

I've been reading through all of your (very similar) threads. What exactly are your qualifications? Given that you have come on to a science thread with the view of debunking a scientific theory, I'm assuming you have excellent science credentials.

Lay them out for us.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
1) Is Evolution directional?:

No. This is because mutations are random -- you might call them omni-directional. It's just that most hosts with mutations will not successfully reproduce; and rarely some will successfully reproduce with less effort, more often, or have some other advantage.

Think of it like this. If you're lost in the forest and need to get to town to survive, evolution is not like having a compass that slowly but surely points you towards town. Evolution is more like having 20 of you wandering in different directions -- but only a few of you actually make it.

(The analogy is obviously lacking because your making it wasn't non-random, but hopefully you see the point in how evolution is non-directional. It's not like a compass.)

ID_neon said:
a) no direction - every adaptation has equal probability to survive
b) yes -recessive every less adapted population will survive (less complex)
c) yes -progressive every more adapted population will survive

You seriously misunderstand evolutionary processes. None of these options are true.

a) is false because (despite evolution being non-directional) every genotype does not have equal probability to survive; and the same genotype may survive well under some circumstances but poorly under others.

b) is false because evolution is non-directional, and complexity may not even factor into successful replication at all. Sometimes more complexity is worth the biological cost to overcome an obstacle (e.g., eusocial behavior in hymenoptera). Sometimes less complexity is advantageous due to the reduced biological cost (e.g., the barnacle Sacculina carcini having a considerably less complex body plan than other barnacles due to its niche as an internal parasite). Other times complexity has no bearing whatsoever on successful reproduction.

c) is false, aside from another reminder that evolution is non-directional, because it's not guaranteed that an adaptation that "sounds good on paper" will dominate a population's allele frequencies. This can be because of biological cost (the benefit is outweighed by the cost, and the associated risk to acquire energy to make up for that cost in some cases), because the beneficial allele simply isn't beneficial enough to give a reproductive advantage over the rest of the population, or even because the hosts of otherwise advantageous alleles are simply unlucky and perish before they can pass them on by poor circumstances.

ID_neon said:
2) is evolution cooperative or competitive?

Evolution is just a process -- please see my response to your other post for further explanation.

If you're asking about whether it's advantageous for individual organisms to cooperate or compete, that strongly depends on the circumstances such as the available ecological niches, the risk involved in gathering energy, etc.

ID_neon said:
3) can a competitive system be self regulating (rely on others) if that is contrary to it's own survival?

I'm not sure what you mean. Can an organism that competes also engage in altruism? Certainly -- I don't see how this is contrary to its survival at all. What do you mean?

ID_neon said:
4) is evolution compatible with a cooperative or competitive system
Or both?

Again, I'm not sure what you mean exactly. I think you're confusing evolution (a mere mechanism) with something else. How can a mechanism be cooperative or competitive?

ID_neon said:
5) is nature competitive or harmonious?

You're using adjectives that don't really describe the nouns you're asking about. Nature is just a collection of things and states of affairs. Both harmony and competition occur within nature; but it doesn't make sense to say that nature itself is either.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
What answer would a professor of these fields give to these questions?

Question 6) why would sexual reproduction evolve at all?

Sexual reproduction is vital for protecting gene pools from diseases and parasites that could otherwise specialize in attacking that specific genotype. When there's variation in a genotype it's much more difficult for diseases and parasites to specialize in infecting those organisms because they have a wider variety of phenotypes; and the ability to shuffle genes through sex also increases the chances that some potential host organisms will be resistant or immune altogether.

Any farmer that uses cloned crops will tell you how bad it is when a disease or parasite infects their crops because all of them are the same: if the parasite can infect some of the crop it's a sure bet that the parasite can infect them all. Crops with shuffled genomes are far more resilient thanks to their larger gene pool and greater number of alleles.
 
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