Sex and the Church

[patronkerr]

I'm surprised!! Why? Surprised to find sex mentioned in this site, that's why.

Religions generally have a great problem with sexuality. As I see it, most of them are besotted by it but usually, in this time, it's condemnation against gays mostly but also about most things connected to one of the most natural of human instincts. After hunger and self preservation, procreation is pretty well next and of course that needs sex.

Churches seem to put an awful lot of effort into suppressing sex and ranting on about the real or perceived decadence of the human race in matters of sex. It takes up more time and effort (and money), I would suggest, that fighting for the poor and the oppressed, or against unjust wars or injustice and many other more important problems of the world.

I offer as evidence the matter of unmarried Catholic priests, women in the church and the display of the human body, surely a creation of God. People are not born clothed.
There are many other examples which I am sure others can think of so over to those who would like to comment on the foregoing.........

 

[Comet]

I'm surprised!! Why? Surprised to find sex mentioned in this site, that's why.

Don't be surprised that there are many great, just, and people of wisdom here. It is the best discussion site on the web!

Religions generally have a great problem with sexuality. As I see it, most of them are besotted by it but usually, in this time, it's condemnation against gays mostly but also about most things connected to one of the most natural of human instincts. After hunger and self preservation, procreation is pretty well next and of course that needs sex.

Churches seem to put an awful lot of effort into suppressing sex and ranting on about the real or perceived decadence of the human race in matters of sex. It takes up more time and effort (and money), I would suggest, that fighting for the poor and the oppressed, or against unjust wars or injustice and many other more important problems of the world.

I offer as evidence the matter of unmarried Catholic priests, women in the church and the display of the human body, surely a creation of God. People are not born clothed.
There are many other examples which I am sure others can think of so over to those who would like to comment on the foregoing......

Perhaps it would be best to have this in one of the debate forums.

 

[nutshell]

I'm surprised!! Why? Surprised to find sex mentioned in this site, that's why.

Religions generally have a great problem with sexuality. As I see it, most of them are besotted by it but usually, in this time, it's condemnation against gays mostly but also about most things connected to one of the most natural of human instincts. After hunger and self preservation, procreation is pretty well next and of course that needs sex.

Churches seem to put an awful lot of effort into suppressing sex and ranting on about the real or perceived decadence of the human race in matters of sex. It takes up more time and effort (and money), I would suggest, that fighting for the poor and the oppressed, or against unjust wars or injustice and many other more important problems of the world.

I offer as evidence the matter of unmarried Catholic priests, women in the church and the display of the human body, surely a creation of God. People are not born clothed.
There are many other examples which I am sure others can think of so over to those who would like to comment on the foregoing.........

I bolded the part I'm directly responding to. Part of our purpose in this life, IMO, is to rise above the desires of the flesh and give ourselves to the Spirit. Does that take away from sex? NO WAY!!! It enhances it by making it a sacred experience between a man and a woman who have covenanted with each other to be together either until death or possible forever.

 

[patronkerr]

OK, Nutshell, I think I see where you're at but when it gets to the stage that the Spirit means more than the flesh, as you put it, then the Church will be in big trouble. In fact, I believe that there is a great shortage of priests and nuns already in the Catholic Church, for example, although I suppose going by some of actions, rather than the beliefs, of a lot of priests, they don't actually avoid the flesh. But to be serious, there has been and there still are 'religions' who abhore the flesh so completely that they no longer exist. It was once said, 'Moderation in all things' and I think that is true. That includes religion, just it includes the flesh.

 

[nutshell]

OK, Nutshell, I think I see where you're at but when it gets to the stage that the Spirit means more than the flesh, as you put it, then the Church will be in big trouble. In fact, I believe that there is a great shortage of priests and nuns already in the Catholic Church, for example, although I suppose going by some of actions, rather than the beliefs, of a lot of priests, they don't actually avoid the flesh. But to be serious, there has been and there still are 'religions' who abhore the flesh so completely that they no longer exist. It was once said, 'Moderation in all things' and I think that is true. That includes religion, just it includes the flesh.

That's true. There are religions that died out because of their abhorance towards the flesh. I do believe, however, that sex can be a spiritual experience as well. Further, in my religion, we believe the command given to Adam and Eve to "multiply and replenish the earth" is still in effect. So, if we put the Spirit first and desire to follow all God's commands...then we'll be having sex. Now, I'm not saying sex is for reproduction only. I believe God wants us to experience pleasure as well.

 

[patronkerr]

Excellent answer - but I have to say, it appears to me that it is not what a lot of churches believe. I hate to revert to the Catholic Church who appear to have the strongest concerns. On one hand it doesn't believe in birth control and one the other, who are the worst offenders when it comes to sexual assault against children - mainly young boys? They are against condoms despite the epidemic of AIDS and putting forth downright lies such as the germs (or what ever) of HIV will penetrate condoms. No worry about people dying of AIDS as long as they reproduce.
They are selective in promoting birth control being totally against it in the poor countries, ie Africa, S. America whereas we all know that it is not stressed in N. America. Further, there have been cases where the church has not allowed partners who are incapable of procreating getting married. More effort, time and money, as I said previously is spent worrying about what people do or not do in their bedrooms than just about anything else.

 

[Smoke]

But to be serious, there has been and there still are 'religions' who abhore the flesh so completely that they no longer exist.

I don't think there are still any religions that no longer exist.

But I know what you mean; celibacy didn't do a lot to perpetuate the Shakers, for instance. The Catholic insistence on clerical celibacy, if it continues, will probably make for some interesting changes in Catholicism.

 

[carcasia123]

It's too bad that some religious make sex so shameful that even husband and wife can't enjoy it. It can become so much more than physical satisfaction if done in the right circumstances. Obviously God condones sex or he wouldn't have made it the way to have babies.

 

[Kungfuzed]

It's too bad that some religious make sex so shameful that even husband and wife can't enjoy it. It can become so much more than physical satisfaction if done in the right circumstances. Obviously God condones sex or he wouldn't have made it the way to have babies.

And with their lack of experience they'll have no idea how to deal with it. They'll just assume that this is what sex is supposed to be like.

I for one beleve that people should gain sexual experience before marriage, especially with the one they intend to marry. The importance of sexual compatability and the effects it has on marriage is greatly underestimated.

 

[Sunstone]

**MOD POST**

Moved to Religious Debates
​

 

[Karl R]

I think several of the examples you used were poor ones.

who are the worst offenders when it comes to sexual assault against children - mainly young boys?

Someone who is one of the experts in the field (one of those infamous "friends-of-a-friend") claimed that this was not caused by celibacy.

Child molestors seek jobs that give them access to children. They seek positions where they will be trusted (like boy scout leader). Even more importantly, the catholic church had a long history of protecting these molestors, so it was one of the safest ways for someone to abuse.

Look at it from a rational stand point. It's a dream job for molestors. The catholic church is desparate for priests, so they don't do the best background checks. Nobody questions why these men aren't in a normal relationship with a woman. And all the kids in the church are sent to "confess", giving the molestor excellent insight into which kids are vulnerable and what their weakness is. And for decades the church would protect the perpetrators who were caught. Molestors want the job (and most normal people don't).

They are selective in promoting birth control being totally against it in the poor countries, ie Africa, S. America whereas we all know that it is not stressed in N. America.

This is pragmatism. If you start making a big deal about birth control in the U.S., church attendance drops. Adherence to the rules is wonderful, but not if it will reduce the number of butts in the pews. Therefore priests have learned to turn a blind eye to birth control (and other things) in certain parts of the world.

Furthermore, when the catholic church moves into a poor region, birth rates drop. The catholic church believes strongly in educating people. Once the population is literate, they can read the instructions for birth control pills or other contraceptives.

The highest birth rates in the world aren't from predominantly catholic countries.

More effort, time and money, as I said previously is spent worrying about what people do or not do in their bedrooms than just about anything else.

I think you're wrong. Feel free to audit the financials of any church (catholic or otherwise) to find out where the money goes. They're non-profit institutions, so their financial records have to be fairly public.

I'm willing to bet that the most time and effort goes into maintaining the infrastructure: maintenance on the buildings, electricity, paying the employees, et cetera.


I agree that churches frequently teach an unhealthy attitude toward sex, but I think several the examples you used are poor.

 

[Scuba Pete]

They seek positions where they will be trusted (like boy scout leader).

Kudos to the BSA for having such a low incidence of abuse. Youth Protection is alive and well in the BSA and we actively promote policies that protect both youths and their leaders from being exposed to situations that might lead to this. Few even try to penetrate the many levels of protection the BSA provides for it's youth.

However, the Catholic church in no way discourages sex, because they know that leads to procreation. Traditionally, some of the largest families have been Catholic. That they deny sex to their clergy has always been curious to me as this prohibition is clearly against the scriptures.

Many churches are waking up to their parishoner's sexuality and that God actually invented it for pleasure. Couple's classes and sex education are becoming more and more common.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I'm surprised!! Why? Surprised to find sex mentioned in this site, that's why.

Welcome to RF.

Religions generally have a great problem with sexuality.

Name them and describe in detail how they have a great problem with sexuality.

I offer as evidence the matter of unmarried Catholic priests, women in the church and the display of the human body, surely a creation of God. People are not born clothed.
There are many other examples which I am sure others can think of so over to those who would like to comment on the foregoing.........

Your evidence does not match your conclusion.

 

[sojourner]

I bolded the part I'm directly responding to. Part of our purpose in this life, IMO, is to rise above the desires of the flesh and give ourselves to the Spirit. Does that take away from sex? NO WAY!!! It enhances it by making it a sacred experience between a man and a woman who have covenanted with each other to be together either until death or possible forever.

This is classic dualism: "Flesh bad...spirit good." We're not here to rise above our flesh, but to make it what God designed it to be. There is a proper way and an improper way to handle desire. Desire GOOD...desire very good! But to unleash it in rampant dissipation is bad. As people who know ourselves to be God's people, we strive to deport ourselves in a manner consistent with who we were created to be.

 

[Sunstone]

I'm surprised!! Why? Surprised to find sex mentioned in this site, that's why.

Just out of curiosity, but do you find other sites don't mention sex?

As for our site doing so, we focus primarily on religion here, as you can see. But for many people, religion permeates their lives and is related to everything else in the world for them. That is, for them, religion doesn't stop at the temple, mosque or church door. Thus we find that to comprehensively discuss religion, we must practically discuss nearly everything else too, from politics through science to sexuality. I would be surprised if other sites didn't recognize this too, for I consider it mere common sense.

I can agree with the OP to a certain extent, but it occurs to me that many, perhaps most, religions (when looked at broadly enough) don't have the issues or problems with human sexuality that you speak of. For instance, Paganism, Zen, Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism, UU, Native American Religions, Shinto, and so forth don't seem to have quite the same problems with sexuality as one at times sees in some Christian, Muslim, or Jewish congregations in the United States and perhaps elsewhere.

I realize from your thread title that you are most concerned only with Christian denominations when you speak of "religion", and that's fine. I merely raise my quibble in the hope of placing such things in a context of sorts.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

If I may, mods, I'd like to post a question for the Abrahamic-religion followers and ask what they think is the reason behind the design of the female orgasm. Please feel free to remove this post if it is improper (too explicit) or if it deserves it's own thread topic.



What purpose does it serve for the whole of humanity besides her own sexual pleasure? Is there anything Biblical that supports your reasoning?



I've always been curious of how the church sees the necessity of the female "O."





Peace,
Mystic

 

[angellous_evangellous]

If I may, mods, I'd like to post a question for the Abrahamic-religion followers and ask what they think is the reason behind the design of the female orgasm. Please feel free to remove this post if it is improper (too explicit) or if it deserves it's own thread topic.



What purpose does it serve for the whole of humanity besides her own sexual pleasure? Is there anything Biblical that supports your reasoning?



I've always been curious of how the church sees the necessity of the female "O."





Peace,
Mystic

Well you've asked the question. May as well post it as another thread topic.

 

[Polaris]

I believe that the purpose and proper use of sex is two-fold:

1. Procreation within marriage.
2. Strengthen the bond between husband and wife (including mutual pleasure).

I believe that religions that prohibit marriage and marital sex are in error.
I believe that anyone who uses sex for anything other than these (i.e. selfish pleasure, etc) pervert its proper use.

 

[Sunstone]

If I may, mods, I'd like to post a question for the Abrahamic-religion followers and ask what they think is the reason behind the design of the female orgasm. Please feel free to remove this post if it is improper (too explicit) or if it deserves it's own thread topic.



What purpose does it serve for the whole of humanity besides her own sexual pleasure? Is there anything Biblical that supports your reasoning?



I've always been curious of how the church sees the necessity of the female "O."





Peace,
Mystic

Yours is an appropriate topic for discussion on the open forum, Mystic, unless you want to get into specific ways of inducing the female orgasm (in which case, simply take it to the Eros Room). But please start a new thread on the topic, as the responses would lead this thread off topic.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Thank you.




Peace,
Mystic